White Light
Smash Journeyman
Who's the best character in the game? For my money it's gotta be ice climbers for the ice blast attack
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Avro-Arrow
Smash Journeyman
Does everyone like what I've done with my hair?
Err, I mean. Knuckles seems to be the most prominent character in the meta right now; he must be good if not the best.
Err, I mean. Knuckles seems to be the most prominent character in the meta right now; he must be good if not the best.
_Chrome
Smash Ace
It's definitely not Snake. I can't even name 10 winning matchups he might have.
bboss
Smash Journeyman
snakes not the best for sure but he does have quite a few winning matchups.
examples:
wario
mario
luigi
peach
Zelda
puff
ness
mewtwo
ics
g&w
ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
Luigi snake is pretty even. it all depends on the players, really. Snake can take advantage of Luigi's wavedash lag while Luigi can just combo him to oblivion.
Also can't Zelda just transform and get rid of sticky?
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CursedKaiju
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2017
- Messages
- 103
why do you guys think that meta knight and wolf are the best?
bboss
Smash Journeyman
I think Luigi Snake is highly tilted in Snake's favor. Snake can kill Luigi at 68% on battlefield, and many of Luigi's edgeguards can be foiled worth c4 recovery. Snake can make it hard for weeg to get back onstage with mines, stickies, forward tilts, and offstage nairs.
Zelda can, but most Zelda / sheik players don't know about it.
Here's why they are top 2:
Meta Knight:
He's fast, has a sword, good attacks, good recovery, kill confirms off upthrow, transcendent priority, he's just good at basically everything. He has the biggest payoff for the least effort.
Wolf:
A spacie with spacie tools, plus falcon / ganon- like air wobbles that can lead into a falcon-like "knee", along with a very technical but very strong neutral, strong approach, and insane laser camping.
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CursedKaiju
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2017
- Messages
- 103
Maybe I suck with meta knight but what is good about his recovery?
_Chrome
Smash Ace
Or how he uses each of those moves, since they can be used high or low, he can angle them, etc., etc.
Plus he has 3 jumps and a super good air dodge since it grabs ledge really quickly.
Plus he has 3 jumps and a super good air dodge since it grabs ledge really quickly.
Avro-Arrow
Smash Journeyman
I would say MK isn't the most reward for least effort character, especially if you consider different levels of the game. GW for example gets tonnes of margin off of auto beating asdi with dtilt, amazing anti-pressire options, a nuanced recovery, good ledge options, safe hitboxes (relatively or just straight up safe) and a great combo game with high damage output and not having to rely on comboing into a kill move like Marth and ZSS have to do sometimes. That's not even mentioning his jank-ass animations/active frames.
MK on the flip side gets punished pretty hard and requires more precision than does GW. He's higher execution because of his design: getting punished hard means you have to hit l-cancels, not eff up your dash dance; he's higher APM overall which is meaningful; and things like cape shenanigans aren't exactly equivalent to upb --> double jump hammer levels of pick up and play.
MK on the flip side gets punished pretty hard and requires more precision than does GW. He's higher execution because of his design: getting punished hard means you have to hit l-cancels, not eff up your dash dance; he's higher APM overall which is meaningful; and things like cape shenanigans aren't exactly equivalent to upb --> double jump hammer levels of pick up and play.
White Light
Smash Journeyman
I hate that 3.6 is the final version because diddy wolf Lucas fox and game and watch are so easy to pick up and do well with even with little practice. These characters have way too may strengths and very few weaknesses compared to characters like ganon or dedede
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
April fool's was saturday
bboss
Smash Journeyman
Not to mention how easily he gets chaingrabbed and juggled because of his 2.45 fall speed.
But Fox is the best in Melee and he's a fastfaller / can get chaingrabbed / juggled easily also.
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eideeiit
Smash Ace
I thought Mario decimated Snake? Something to do with his hitboxes beating Snake's usually, being able to grab a Snake with a grenade due to bthrow, fireball easily dealing with Snake's stage control tricks, overall out-defensing him, a deadly combo game and kill setups and kill power?
CursedKaiju
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2017
- Messages
- 103
i believe that it is slightly mario favored, but they both destroy each other when the ball get rolling, while everything u said is true all snake needs for mario to get a grab or get mario impatient
bboss
Smash Journeyman
I actually think it is good for Snake. Against Snake Mario has a really hard time getting back onstage, and Snake can actually C4 if he is airborne caped by Mario. Although Mario does have a cape, this does not give him a free pass against mines and c4, arguably two of Snake's best moves. The cape does mean that Snake has to get closer to Mario and be a bit more aggressive, which is too bad, but I think that Snake still wins overall.
Well, for starters:
-Snake fsmash definitely beats Mario fsmash in terms of reach.
-Snake utilt is better.
-Snake dtilt has more range.
As for backthrow, if snake has a grenade equipped when Mario grabs him and bthrows him, it will do one of these things:
-(depending on port priority) give snake no knockback and give Mario knockback;
-Give both characters knockback, in which case it is good for Mario if he is above snake, but bad if he is below him (due to dair coming out frame 3);
-Snake gets thrown and the grenade gives him vertical knockback, allowing him to live (in most scenarios).
As for out-defending him, Mario has 1 good projectile and snake has many more. You can't throw a fireball up in the air to finish your opponents, or put your opponents to sleep with fireball, or cancel all momentum with fireball.
Setups? I think that Snake definitely has better setups. (Due to c4, mines, nodes, cipher, tranq, etc).
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
just leaving this here
eideeiit
Smash Ace
Mario's backthrow beats grenade always from what I've tested since it brings up a hitbox that detonates it (from spinning the opponent around) while he has throw invulnerability. So Snake gets hit by the grenade while Mario is unaffected. At low % it can be followed up easily I think.
By kill setups I pretty much mean dtilt to fair. Doesn't matter how many there are if yours are just so much better. That one was kind of just a guess though, since Mario just is like that.
Jonyc128
Smash Journeyman
I think Mario slightly beats Snake as well. Mario's hitboxes are just overall faster than Snake's, and once Mario gets a grab Snake is taking at least 50-60%. I also feel as though you overrate Snake's C4 and mine to edgeguard Mario. Most Mario's will almost always be above the stage so that they're in a position to detonate the mine safely with a fireball (or if they want to super cheese the Snake, hit Snake with a fireball so that he hits his own mine) and if he's low he'll sweetspot the ledge with either double jump or upB, then do an invincible ledgedash into shield. Also, unless snake gets the sticky into C4, Mario is going to kill snake earlier than vice versa due to all his reliable kill setups into either fair or fsmash. Those being dtilt, upair, or the spike grounded hitbox of upsmash.
Avro-Arrow
Smash Journeyman
Frost | Odds
is that your list? I wonder why lucas and mario are so high on it, and why sheik is on a higher tier than many of the A tiers.
bboss
Smash Journeyman
I like it
Lol you put Bowser in last
No what I mean is when the throw animation is complete, and Snake is moving way from Mario and still has his grenade, then it will blow him up. Plus characters only have throw invincibility for the first 10 frames of their throw animation.
eideeiit
Smash Ace
Test it yourself.
And just to be sure I'm talking about when Snake's just pulled out the grenade and can do the roll toss/ far toss/ toss/ toss up things and walk backwards. Not when he has pulled it, dropped it and picked it up again to throw it like normal items. In the situation I'm talking about Snake drops the grenade when grabbed.
And Mario's bthrow again has a hitbox around Mario from spinning the opponent around that usually detonates the nade during Mario's throw invul.
When Mario has higher port the hitbox of the detonated grenade hits only Snake, but he gets no KB and the throw completes.
When Mario has lower port it hits only Snake and he gets broken out of the throw with the KB from the nade.
It seems if Mario's grab hits at max range and/or Snake's animation has enough time to get to the spot where he puts the grenade behind his back the spinning hitbox won't reach it and it won't detonate and things will work like normal.
If Snake's picked it up again and gets bthrown his hand and thus the grenade seems to be just barely out of the spinning hitbox, so the grenade won't get detonated when Mario has invulnerability and things will proceed like normal.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
There's a ton of small reasons; basically boils down to "they're pretty good characters, especially in tournament"
The extreme tl;dr is Lucas's punish game is total bonkoz, Sheik is immune to losing stage position and can 0-d most of cast and has dumb ledge game + edgeguards, and mario has no real weaknesses and a bunch of straight BS moves and a smash 4 recovery.
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bboss
Smash Journeyman
No I as talking about when he is item holdimg it.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Wow, take a bit of a hiatus from Smash, including going dead on Smash related websites, and come back to find this area of SB even more dead then it was before I left and even lower overall quality of posts in regards to this games metagame, not that this post is helping in that regard or that any of my posts were ever high quality to begin with.
Still, is sad.
Still, is sad.
I like it a lot overall.
I always tend to have several 'general issues' with most lists, but I only think 1 of those is applicable with this one.
That being, Fox/Sheik/Falcon/Falco being too high, and Puff being too low, as I'm not a fan of the praise Melee characters tend to get in this game, and how Puff always gets too little compared to them.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Actually I agree in principle that Puff is typically underrated (I also now think Pit is underrated fwiw), and she does have the toolset to deal with most of the cast. A couple matchups though are just so ****ing horrifying for her that they're functionally autolosses- and it's really tough to justify placing her higher. Her boost grab (and Fox's nerfs) actually make her pretty playable against Fox though and DACUS is a huge improvement for her in a bunch of floaty matchups.
I also think Falco is undersold. Most falco players are dumb Melee players and don't know how / don't bother to use his PM specific stuff and don't know matchups / get upset because they die early due to lack of MU knowledge. DACUS is actually insane for extending his juggles, B reverse lasers make his neutral even more nightmarish to deal with than in Melee, and RAR bair lets him safely approach in completely new ways.
Same kinda applies to the other characters, though less so.
also sup fam hao u bin
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
chilling
bboss
Smash Journeyman
Finally someone says it how it is
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Player -0
Smash Hero
ps the very top part of Falco's Up Smash sending forward is still hilarious
And Pit's mirror shield still op
And Pit's mirror shield still op
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
a. lol pwem
b. lol that sdi outwards on the first dair
LOL it's a rant
Freaking forums XD
Kushana and Tepa avatars in one spot, niiiice
How about you? Got that sponsor (Frost?) and still playing both Melee and PM and rocking the scene and streaming and teaching people until the beat you and whatever else? Life good overall?
Tier list stuff. Yeah, lists are weird, though there are some interesting things to take into account that make that weirdness pretty functional.
For example, looking at your list and the last one I made, I noticed we have multiple character-pairings that remain side-by-side, but are reversed. Things like ICs>Link, Peach>Ness, Char>Ganon, etc. We both have them all together, but there's hardly any point in us making commentary on why we think it's one way or the other. We probably are on the same page with all of it, and could have some neat discussion (which is all this thread 'should' be a catalyst for anyway), but to make that distinction on their placements is futile and silly even if it could be considered something we have 'different' in our lists.
Especially when it comes to the lower half of a list. Even looking at the other Smash Game's official lists, there's a large and heavy chunk at the bottom of 64/Melee/Brawl, and unless the game has things like pairing or assists (some other games whether it's MvC or Dota) the discrepancies make an actual 'ordering' essentially pointless.
With so many characters, they're all gonna have their place either as fairly stable or polarizing, and then it depends on what's 'weighed' more, or the necessarily always present RNG factor of player focus/day/mood/1 single guess ends a stock deal. ha
Then that's kind of where the 'Melee characters are too high' thing comes in for me a lot, and why that's always a general issue I have with lists. It's even mildly common in the perspectives of the consistently-top melee players that characters like Puff/Pika/Sheik/Peach could be 'even' with Fox, or that Marth/Samus/Falco could 'beat' Fox, but does it matter when it's that close?
I'd say yes to a lot of that, then when we get into PM, a hit to 3 of the major things that made Fox work against Puff has GOT to swing that a little more her way. Let alone changes to other characters that help them (Puff Dacus, or other close match-ups like Falco/Pika/Samus stuff).
Though where does it end up?
And does it matter?
Most of the characters in PM got many tools to clip through things like heavy Dash-Dance-Grab games and deal with disjoints, so it makes sense that unless a character can camp as hard as CF, the characters like Sheik/Peach/etc who are more solid in standing their ground could come out a little better than the likes of Marth/Fox on that end too. Did it? Who knows for sure, but it sure seems like it as far as I considered, and as far as results have been going, but the discrepancies again are nearly immeasurable.
All of this stuff helps against Puff, but not many characters got something like a Knee (a high mobility space-shift kill move that's necessary for making Puff die at a reasonable %) or the necessary tools to lead INTO that kind of move.
And not many characters got the quick-release disjoints or lock-down tools like fast Marth swings or Falco laser/Bair combinations.
So even if some did get stuff like that, do these few match-ups that really mess her up really subject her to being a bottom feeder, when life got a lot harder for all OTHER melee characters than her 'overall'? Is that even the case?
Who knows! haha
Same applies to Falco in a different way but same idea. A single wavebounce laser and let the imagination fly into "Wow, if this was there all along, the Falco meta-game would look WAY different than it does now"
Falco is an amazing character in almost every facet of the game. There's no way that the discrepancy between him and Fox is that big that Fox is a possible #1 with Falco falling half way down, even if it's still decent difference because of diversity in cast leaning a little more the way of floaties that Fox Uairs off the top easy, and ranged characters with OOS options that can kill Falco in a single guess work play.
Anywho...
I'll always advocate for Fox/Sheik/CF/Falco (or whoever people put in the higher-end) be brought down to where you have the Peach/Marth, along with Puff being clumped at least with the larger pile of 'totally fine' characters, even if it's the lowest large-pile before it gets to bordering dysfunctional.
She deserves that much at least.
It's always interesting to keep in mind too that PM's top-end is still consisting of things like...
A Wario that edgeguards the same against everyone with a jump to platform/drop through formula, regardless of character/player/%/etc that the opponent is.
A Mario that throws away free stocks because they have a sloppy punish game, probably due to not transitioning out of the flailing that they're so strong with otherwise.
A Squirtle that plays a stalemate game for half the time and does very well, then throws the other have by doing the equivalent of Sheik dash-attacking at 0% and getting cc>dead.
A DK that only ever seems to get hit by players in finals because he doesn't like moving for sometimes up to a full second after LCing aerials in neutral that don't connect.
A Lucas that flails to pace a match but doesn't consider the opponents actions so doesn't capitalize on it, and so frequently does the equivalent of punishing Rests with Shines.
On and on, all at a glance just by watching a few sets with anyone who plays the game.
So what are the odds (ha) a Project M Falco is going to be on-par (or MORE than, because PM is crazier) with the intelligent play of a top Falco from a game like Melee, which has a lot of tuning and mastery already, fewer match-ups by triple-fold, and no quirks like highly meta-game-development-demanding wavebounce lasers? Let alone have opponents of every character with many styles and growth-ways of their own for them to BOUNCE off of as context to learn and grow their own way?
GG
That's the tragic beauty of PM. It's the most impossibly complex and dynamic Smash-game, with the least possibility of having that matched with its community (and more possibly leaning to opposite extremes between game and community).
And it's a Smash game. That's already CRAZY at a root.
So the meta-game with never ever be close to clear on a tangible level of seeing it fully in-act (together), and only ever in the eye of those keen enough to look (together).
Pretty freaking cool.
Random side-note to others earlier.
Luigi/Snake can kill each other at 68% on any stage, both of those characters have crazy punish games on each other. To say it's heavily in either's favor shouldn't be taken lightly and on a whim due to simply how early they die. Didn't some barely-decent player named otke or something almost beat a fairly-good player Prof in GFs by basically doing like 2 things over and over and not even playing Luigi to his strengths? haha
Also, Snake has hardly anything to threaten Mario with. He doesn't have anything that a lot of others have that make Mario's life hard, and doesn't bring anything special to the match-up that allows it to swing in his favor more than it would if he was against a lot of other characters. So get that Snake>Mario thing out of here too.
Freaking forums XD
Basically this
Kushana and Tepa avatars in one spot, niiiice
Been good. Didn't go 'afk from life' over winter, so I've been popping in the general discord and facebook groups of various regions over the last few months. Not playing much/at all, but been keeping up with a bunch of minions making some waves over the last year or so. It's great to see players 'growing up' from trash to taking matches off people like bladewise and lucky and stuff in tourneys over time. That's what I get a kick out of these days I guess. Ha!
How about you? Got that sponsor (Frost?) and still playing both Melee and PM and rocking the scene and streaming and teaching people until the beat you and whatever else? Life good overall?
Tier list stuff. Yeah, lists are weird, though there are some interesting things to take into account that make that weirdness pretty functional.
For example, looking at your list and the last one I made, I noticed we have multiple character-pairings that remain side-by-side, but are reversed. Things like ICs>Link, Peach>Ness, Char>Ganon, etc. We both have them all together, but there's hardly any point in us making commentary on why we think it's one way or the other. We probably are on the same page with all of it, and could have some neat discussion (which is all this thread 'should' be a catalyst for anyway), but to make that distinction on their placements is futile and silly even if it could be considered something we have 'different' in our lists.
Especially when it comes to the lower half of a list. Even looking at the other Smash Game's official lists, there's a large and heavy chunk at the bottom of 64/Melee/Brawl, and unless the game has things like pairing or assists (some other games whether it's MvC or Dota) the discrepancies make an actual 'ordering' essentially pointless.
With so many characters, they're all gonna have their place either as fairly stable or polarizing, and then it depends on what's 'weighed' more, or the necessarily always present RNG factor of player focus/day/mood/1 single guess ends a stock deal. ha
Then that's kind of where the 'Melee characters are too high' thing comes in for me a lot, and why that's always a general issue I have with lists. It's even mildly common in the perspectives of the consistently-top melee players that characters like Puff/Pika/Sheik/Peach could be 'even' with Fox, or that Marth/Samus/Falco could 'beat' Fox, but does it matter when it's that close?
I'd say yes to a lot of that, then when we get into PM, a hit to 3 of the major things that made Fox work against Puff has GOT to swing that a little more her way. Let alone changes to other characters that help them (Puff Dacus, or other close match-ups like Falco/Pika/Samus stuff).
Though where does it end up?
And does it matter?
Most of the characters in PM got many tools to clip through things like heavy Dash-Dance-Grab games and deal with disjoints, so it makes sense that unless a character can camp as hard as CF, the characters like Sheik/Peach/etc who are more solid in standing their ground could come out a little better than the likes of Marth/Fox on that end too. Did it? Who knows for sure, but it sure seems like it as far as I considered, and as far as results have been going, but the discrepancies again are nearly immeasurable.
All of this stuff helps against Puff, but not many characters got something like a Knee (a high mobility space-shift kill move that's necessary for making Puff die at a reasonable %) or the necessary tools to lead INTO that kind of move.
And not many characters got the quick-release disjoints or lock-down tools like fast Marth swings or Falco laser/Bair combinations.
So even if some did get stuff like that, do these few match-ups that really mess her up really subject her to being a bottom feeder, when life got a lot harder for all OTHER melee characters than her 'overall'? Is that even the case?
Who knows! haha
Same applies to Falco in a different way but same idea. A single wavebounce laser and let the imagination fly into "Wow, if this was there all along, the Falco meta-game would look WAY different than it does now"
Falco is an amazing character in almost every facet of the game. There's no way that the discrepancy between him and Fox is that big that Fox is a possible #1 with Falco falling half way down, even if it's still decent difference because of diversity in cast leaning a little more the way of floaties that Fox Uairs off the top easy, and ranged characters with OOS options that can kill Falco in a single guess work play.
Anywho...
I'll always advocate for Fox/Sheik/CF/Falco (or whoever people put in the higher-end) be brought down to where you have the Peach/Marth, along with Puff being clumped at least with the larger pile of 'totally fine' characters, even if it's the lowest large-pile before it gets to bordering dysfunctional.
She deserves that much at least.
It's always interesting to keep in mind too that PM's top-end is still consisting of things like...
A Wario that edgeguards the same against everyone with a jump to platform/drop through formula, regardless of character/player/%/etc that the opponent is.
A Mario that throws away free stocks because they have a sloppy punish game, probably due to not transitioning out of the flailing that they're so strong with otherwise.
A Squirtle that plays a stalemate game for half the time and does very well, then throws the other have by doing the equivalent of Sheik dash-attacking at 0% and getting cc>dead.
A DK that only ever seems to get hit by players in finals because he doesn't like moving for sometimes up to a full second after LCing aerials in neutral that don't connect.
A Lucas that flails to pace a match but doesn't consider the opponents actions so doesn't capitalize on it, and so frequently does the equivalent of punishing Rests with Shines.
On and on, all at a glance just by watching a few sets with anyone who plays the game.
So what are the odds (ha) a Project M Falco is going to be on-par (or MORE than, because PM is crazier) with the intelligent play of a top Falco from a game like Melee, which has a lot of tuning and mastery already, fewer match-ups by triple-fold, and no quirks like highly meta-game-development-demanding wavebounce lasers? Let alone have opponents of every character with many styles and growth-ways of their own for them to BOUNCE off of as context to learn and grow their own way?
GG
That's the tragic beauty of PM. It's the most impossibly complex and dynamic Smash-game, with the least possibility of having that matched with its community (and more possibly leaning to opposite extremes between game and community).
And it's a Smash game. That's already CRAZY at a root.
So the meta-game with never ever be close to clear on a tangible level of seeing it fully in-act (together), and only ever in the eye of those keen enough to look (together).
Pretty freaking cool.
Random side-note to others earlier.
Luigi/Snake can kill each other at 68% on any stage, both of those characters have crazy punish games on each other. To say it's heavily in either's favor shouldn't be taken lightly and on a whim due to simply how early they die. Didn't some barely-decent player named otke or something almost beat a fairly-good player Prof in GFs by basically doing like 2 things over and over and not even playing Luigi to his strengths? haha
Also, Snake has hardly anything to threaten Mario with. He doesn't have anything that a lot of others have that make Mario's life hard, and doesn't bring anything special to the match-up that allows it to swing in his favor more than it would if he was against a lot of other characters. So get that Snake>Mario thing out of here too.
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bboss
Smash Journeyman
yeah but prof won that set because of port priority. After Prof took a game from running onto a mine with luigi in his arms first thing otke did was switch port and let Prof choose stage which is double-edged sword v snake. You can get port priority, then be taken to Wario Land, where a smart player will avoid all port priority shenanigans and secure early kills. So no matter what happens Snake has the upper hand (usually) when it comes to port priority.
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bboss
Smash Journeyman
Double post but I didn't see this.
What i mean is utilt c4. Luigi utilt - downb is not confirmed kill on snake at 68%. Snake utilt- downb on Luigi at 68% is. Thats all i'm saying.
bboss
Smash Journeyman
i like this but i have a few comments.
1. I don't think Wolf should be above MK
2. Mewtwo should be higher
3. Snake's too high he should be a couple of spots lower
4. I like how you put Olimar in last place, this is good considering his minimal tournament results.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
jesus christ bamesy calm down you're scaring away the crickets