Tier List Speculation

[Keman]

wow this thread is dead ; ; guess we can blame wavedash games for it right? well many moons ago (looks to be close to 365 of them) I tried to create a visually appealing tier list. PM's cast amount does not seem to make that simple, but I have been needing to +1 my post count anyway.

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#3,10,24.Gren#7,38,4,21,2,32,23,37,33.Almost Gren#22,29,16,20,17,18,5,41.Really Good#6,31,19,30,36,10,24.Really Good#3,11,26,15,9,40."Melee" Good#27,34,12,35,8."Melee" Good#39,13,28,14.Hidden Boss#25,1.4,5,6,6,7,7,8
&
https://smashboards.com/tiers/#3,20,18.Uneven slot length so 20XX tier to make it visually appealing tier#7.Useable in a competitive scenario to an extent in which you would have solid ground work to build upon and thus be competitive and fun tier#19,17,4,3,16,9,15,11,40,41,36,27,21,14,2,28,10,18,38,5,39,23,34,37,13,6,33,8,31,26,30,35,24,22,25,29,12,20,1,32.1,1

Neither are perfect (high standards and all), maybe if we had a perfectly visually appealing tier list we could use it to attract Melee new players to the game.

 

[Nohbl]

I think it's still too early to call a definitive Top 3. I have doubts about Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and Fox being in that Top 3, though they more or less belong in Top 6. I think Wolf does belong in Top 3 but at this point I lean towards believing that Snake has more potential than Wolf. And that opinion is debatable considering that the character's results have not been so dominant this Summer season in nationals as one would expect. We could go on having a theoretical discussion with just as much good to say about Wolf as about Snake.

 

[DMG]

I think most strong players have top 3 as some order of MK, Wolf, Diddy. In fact I'd say 90% of people put MK and Wolf in top 3. For Top 6, I think Fox Mewtwo and Sonic get the most votes. There's a couple other characters that are good but hard to place: Snake G&W etc

 

[bboss]

I think it's still too early to call a definitive Top 3. I have doubts about Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and Fox being in that Top 3, though they more or less belong in Top 6. I think Wolf does belong in Top 3 but at this point I lean towards believing that Snake has more potential than Wolf. And that opinion is debatable considering that the character's results have not been so dominant this Summer season in nationals as one would expect. We could go on having a theoretical discussion with just as much good to say about Wolf as about Snake.

PM has been out for 7 years and 3.6 has been out for one and a half, it's probably not too early to call a top 3.

MK and Diddy / Fox are definitely top 4.

I think most strong players have top 3 as some order of MK, Wolf, Diddy

Or MK, Wolf, Fox.

 

[Nohbl]

PM has been out for 7 years and 3.6 has been out for one and a half, it's probably not too early to call a top 3.

PM has been out for 6 years, during which time it has gone through a number of updates which have each changed the meta drastically. Pit used to be considered a top tier in 2014, and now he is considered a bottom tier. How long the game itself has been out is irrelevant.

Concerning the current version we have, 1 and a half years is not long enough for a meta to fully develop. Switch's recent rise to prominence and Thunderz's continued dominance despite supposedly not playing a top tier character is indication that there are still more surprises for Project M on the horizon. You can look at the results of recent nationals and see a curious pattern of successful mains that doesn't match the supposed tier list.

So yes, it is still too early to call a definitive Top 3, and to a lesser extent the Top 6 and Top 10.

MK and Diddy / Fox are definitely top 4.

Oh yeah, definitely dude, I mean just look at how many nationals they've won this year—pure dominance, I tell you.

Or you can go ahead and just tell me a little bit about what makes them or their potential so great.

 

[DMG]

PM meta and results are wonky cause most regions don't have adequate representation of the cast. Surprising results at 200+ entrant tournaments, with ~25 characters that can maybe be a threat for top 8, with quite a bit of seeding basically "guessing", it's no wonder stuff is all over the place.

With that said, consensus about top 3-4 characters in the game has been building for awhile despite #1 results being Donkey Kong lol.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I definitely see more Fox/Wolf/MK as top 3 than Diddy/MK/Wolf, which people would argue (including me) is because Diddy ain't on par with them without a banana on board. But at any rate it's pretty consensual that these four characters are at the top of the meta game right now like DMG said, although you'll see some people saying Fox is a lot lower than that, which I can't really buy at all (in all of my "vast" knowledge, lol).

For me I see Fox/Wolf/MK and then some combo of M2/Sonic/Diddy/GW with Falcon/Sheik/Snake following behind.

 

[bboss]

Oh yeah, definitely dude, I mean just look at how many nationals they've won this year—pure dominance, I tell you.

I said they were the best. I didn't say they won tournaments. Sadly in the PM Meta there is a big difference between the two.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

ban zard

10ban

 

[_Chrome]

Ahhhhh, my favourite ancient relic of a thread. ICs OP.

 

[Boiko]

For those who don't like the tier list, that's fine. The PMBR doesn't expect every single player to 100% like the list. I don't think there is a single person on the team who wouldn't want to change the list slightly in one way or another.

The truth of the matter is any competent player can make a pretty solid list based on their own knowledge and experience, and they'll have just as many people who like and dislike it. No tier list is perfect.

What I think that we can all agree on though is that the "official list" was extremely outdated and in need for an update, and that's what we got. We wanted to focus a lot on representing results in our list and not just how strong a character is at their peak performance. That's why Fox is outside of top 5, for example.

If you have specific questions about anything, feel free to ask me here and I'll try to summarize the team's rationale behind a placement.

 

[mimgrim]

I have a question, then, if its suppose to be more on the result based side and regarding MK being in S tier (kinda Wolf too but not as much) since in like most, if not all, recent big tourney we don't even see MK in top 8. Don't get me wrong the theory is there but in results aren;t really matching said theory (kinda like Fox but to a lesser degree). Even looking at the paragraph about MK and Wolf I don't really agree with the statement of MK having more consistent results when I'm seeing Wolf, albeit just Switch, in top 8 at bigger events way more then any of the highly regarded MK players.

Again not really saying I actually disagree with MK being in said S tier (Tbh I just don't ****ing know cause while theory is there I don't really see the results lining up with said theory, again like Fox, so Idk how I would place either of them tbh) just that I don't really seeing him being up that high if it is suppose to be more results based.

Maybe some Clearer clarification on that?

 

[Boiko]

I have a question, then, if its suppose to be more on the result based side and regarding MK being in S tier (kinda Wolf too but not as much) since in like most, if not all, recent big tourney we don't even see MK in top 8. Don't get me wrong the theory is there but in results aren;t really matching said theory (kinda like Fox but to a lesser degree). Even looking at the paragraph about MK and Wolf I don't really agree with the statement of MK having more consistent results when I'm seeing Wolf, albeit just Switch, in top 8 at bigger events way more then any of the highly regarded MK players.

Again not really saying I actually disagree with MK being in said S tier (Tbh I just don't ****ing know cause while theory is there I don't really see the results lining up with said theory, again like Fox, so Idk how I would place either of them tbh) just that I don't really seeing him being up that high if it is suppose to be more results based.

Maybe some Clearer clarification on that?

What MK has that Wolf doesn't is numerous players representing him. Between Boringman, Yung Quaff, Emukiller, Tealz, and myself, there are several MKs capable of making high placements.

There are a few Wolf players outside of Switch. Like Filthy Casual, but that's only one. And he really only has 2 great wins from one tournament.

Many of the panelists also believed that Wolf is so dominant right now because he has his gameplan figured out. Wolf players know how they're going to utilize his strongest tool, lasers, better than their opponents will play against it. We believe that as players begin to figure out the counterplay to lasers, Wolf results will begin to decline.

That may already be true with Switch not placing quite as consistently as he had before.

In addition, Emukiller just placed 2nd at Smashcon, 9th(?) at Supernova, and 9th at Bigger Balc. Yung Quaff placed top 8 at Bigger Balc.

 

[Nohbl]

The truth is that people's tier lists these days aren't based purely or even wholly on results, because they're always quick to point out that despite his dominance in the current meta, Donkey Kong is not top ten. Really, it's a lot of theorycrafting and speculation based off what they think is good or may be good in the future, and this faith-based approach is largely indifferent to results. Not saying it's a bad method, just that it is the standard mode of operation, but people like to pretend that it isn't just that and end up taking their opinions for granted. What they see as obvious becomes enshrined as dogma when they stop seeing the need to respond seriously to challenges to their judgement.

 

[mimgrim]

What MK has that Wolf doesn't is numerous players representing him. Between Boringman, Yung Quaff, Emukiller, Tealz, and myself, there are several MKs capable of making high placements.

Yet with having more players Wolf is still placing overall better with just one player, which speaks for itself to an extent but I'll be going into more detail with Wolf placing better lower.

There are a few Wolf players outside of Switch. Like Filthy Casual, but that's only one. And he really only has 2 great wins from one tournament.

While I do accept this and agree that Switch is the main Wolf out there and is the main one getting the results it still doesn;t change that Wolf is more consistent then MK overall.

Many of the panelists also believed that Wolf is so dominant right now because he has his gameplan figured out. Wolf players know how they're going to utilize his strongest tool, lasers, better than their opponents will play against it. We believe that as players begin to figure out the counterplay to lasers, Wolf results will begin to decline.

This I can see being the case and happening, I'm moreso nitpicking at the more result based statement since both characters have really strong theory but I think of the two only one has been showing consistent results (to an extent, I still don't really think Wolf's results are still lining as good with the theory as they should).

That may already be true with Switch not placing quite as consistently as he had before.

In addition, Emukiller just placed 2nd at Smashcon, 9th(?) at Supernova, and 9th at Bigger Balc. Yung Quaff placed top 8 at Bigger Balc.

At Smashcon Switch also placed first, at LTC 5 he was 7th (at this same tourney Tealz got 17th, still nothing to scoff, way higher then I could ever hope to make at my current level), 5th at Blacklisted 3 (You got 17th here), 1st at SnS3, at Flex Zone 2 both Switch and Boring got 5th, At Bigger Balc Switch placed 5th, and Supernova 2 is the only recent (2017) major where Switch did bad, comparatively speaking, at 25th when with 3 of the MKs above him. So aside from one bad run I wouldn't say he isn;t placing as consistently as he was before (sometimes bad runs just happen) and still overall giving Wolf more consistent results over MK and is in top 8 a lot more then MK as a results despite MK having more high level players.

 

[Zoa]

Curious on Lucario's placing. Is there just a lack of representation for him?

 

[bboss]

yeah, ipk hasn't won any tourneys for acouple of years and he got 17th at bigger balc, other than that reslived is the only other superbig luke main

 

[Nohbl]

Zoa There' aren't many notable Lucario mains, but one could name several. Lucario himself seems like not that strong of a character. He does not win neutral easily at all, lacking a fast, space controlling projectile, range, and air mobility. Without meter he lacks access to his strongest assets, which give him such abilities like a longer recovery, a really good pressure mixup, a combo extender, and a kill throw that is also air-allowable; he's very reliant on it. From my perspective, there's not much he can do that other characters can't, as he's known mostly for his wild punish game, but again, the pinnacle of that is reliant on meter.

I don't know whether if he doesn't carry people, or if he's not attractive enough to garner a large playerbase. I don't see a lot of Diddy Kong players for example but there's no consensus that he's a bad character.

 

[Bazkip]

other than that reslived is the only other superbig luke main

what lol

@reslived didn't know you switched mains

 

[bboss]

@reslived didn't know you switched mains

its a secondary

 

[Zoa]

Eh...I dunno about that. Keep in mind I'm still scrub tier. Nowhere near as decent as I used to be after coming back to PM. But there's some things I recall that don't make Luc that bad in my book.

Aura Sphere's FAF is 30. Compare that to Paralyzer's 36.

Lucario has a guaranteed option to punish an opponent when shielding. It connects right into Force Palm grab. There's also how FP flame can always punish spot dodging, too. It was a post by skellitorman. I'll try and dig it up. I remember JFalls mentioning, in PM in the PM I think, where Luc can OHC off usmash on shield into aerial FP as well.

Edit:

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-605#post-18351772

Found it. It actually explains a lot more than I remember. Given how dodges were normalized, I think this may be more relevant than ever. Especially since skellitorman mentions the fastest spot dodges of that time.

I'm not exactly sure why his neutral is bad. If someone can clarify in greater detail, it would help. Looking at OrangeChris' data sheet, Luc has the 2nd best initial dash speed, with the highest dash acceleration of any character, and the 14th best dash dance length. He reaches his top speed, when dashing, faster than any character if I'm reading this correctly. He does have a projectile with an FAF of 30, and tied with the 16th best SSFF. Dtilt and usmash both stop CC at 0%. Usmash has static knockback, and dtilt cancels it when sweetspotted as it functions like a meteor smash on grounded enemies.

Not sure what dash dance average velocity is, or extended dash dance are. If someone could explain that I'd appreciate it. But Luc has the 8th best dash dance average velocity, and 13th best extended DD.

In regards to his charge aiding recovery, the former PMDT removed his ability to air dodge out of Extremespeed a while back. Normally charges don't aid in recovery unless someone cancels Double Team into timed dairs. This covers a freakish amount of horizontal distance. Also, I'm not sure why this isn't talked about much, but why does no one mention Lucario cutting lag from smashes, tilts, and aerials down on successful hits with ASC? It's like a functional smash and aerial L-cancel.

 

[Nohbl]

Dtilt and usmash both stop CC at 0%.

That is untrue. I will be referring to this video for the present discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5iTYTDAjc

Poilu down tilts Snake at 0% while he is crouching and Lucario gets down tilted right back. [00:20--00:21]

In regards to his charge aiding recovery, the former PMDT removed his ability to air dodge out of Extremespeed a while back.

Regardless, Lucario with meter will recover to the stage where Lucario without meter could not. [02:09--02:12, 07:26--07:43]

why does no one mention Lucario cutting lag from smashes, tilts, and aerials down on successful hits with ASC?

Everyone already acknowledges his combo game, this included. It's not like it automatically wins games; it's just another good tool that helps him be better than he would have been.

 

[mimgrim]

That is untrue. I will be referring to this video for the present discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5iTYTDAjc

Poilu down tilts Snake at 0% while he is crouching and Lucario gets down tilted right back. [00:20--00:21]

Just a quick nitpick but he mentions in the same paragraph you quoted that from that Dtilt stops CCing on *sweetspot* due to the sweetspot of Dtilt acting like a grounded meteor, in your vid that is clearly not a sweetspot Dtilt that got landed.

 

[CORY]

Just a quick nitpick but he mentions in the same paragraph you quoted that from that Dtilt stops CCing on *sweetspot* due to the sweetspot of Dtilt acting like a grounded meteor, in your vid that is clearly not a sweetspot Dtilt that got landed.

 

[Zoa]

That is untrue. I will be referring to this video for the present discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5iTYTDAjc

Poilu down tilts Snake at 0% while he is crouching and Lucario gets down tilted right back. [00:20--00:21]


Regardless, Lucario with meter will recover to the stage where Lucario without meter could not. [02:09--02:12, 07:26--07:43]


Everyone already acknowledges his combo game, this included. It's not like it automatically wins games; it's just another good tool that helps him be better than he would have been.

So I saw the video at around 20 seconds in. That's a sourspotted dtilt. Not a sweetspot. You would technically still be correct about the charge recovery thing, but it only works when recovering high to my knowledge. Each successive dair has Luc lose height while retaining the momentum from Double Team. Doing it when recovering low/at ledge height can put Luc under the stage making recovery even more difficult. Also, I wasn't really wondering about how people acknowledge his combo game. I usually don't see mentions of ASC that helps reduce lag on Luc's attacks. I'm not saying he wins games over anything over it. It's something incredibly useful, and unique to Luc alone. : P

Also edited part of other post. Meant to ask for greater detail as to why his neutral is bad.

 

[bboss]

He does not win neutral easily at all,

I'm not exactly sure why his neutral is bad.

I dont think his neutral is that bad, obviously its better than some characters but worst than some. It's nothing special but it's not bad, either.

 

[DMG]

Lucario Neutral being bad is a meme. The problem so far is that no one is consistently getting crazy Lucario combos. Almost all top Lucario players I see have very visible hot / cold days or match differences at the same tournament. "Cold" Lucario is a mid tier character at best, maybe worse. How oppressive you are for getting 0-death on majority of the cast, with the least amount of effort, = how good your char is in PM.

That said, "Neutral" in PM is not as impactful imo for two reasons:

1. Large number of characters have a high enough quality Neutral

2. PM Neutral is underdeveloped by players

#2 in particular seems obvious when it comes to anti-measures. A lot of players can auto pilot their own characters neutral / approaches, but may not properly respond to their opponent. A person has no trouble going for float AGC triple RAR Buffered Dacus 420 pivot Dsmash shield break, but then opponent Wolf gets a laser out and it's like all Hell on Earth broke loose.

Discrepancy between a Player's offensive and defensive prowess seems to be pretty high for a lot of players in PM. I dunno if people just like pressing buttons way too fast or don't want to have to slow down, but it's been pretty harmful imo.

 

[KinGly]

I just hold the cstick in a direction and wiggle the grey stick and lucario ounish game suck

 

[Nohbl]

Lucario Neutral being bad is a meme.

You haven't said how this isn't so.

The problem so far is that no one is consistently getting crazy Lucario combos.

What I'm claiming is that his punish game is what (is supposed to) makes up for his lackluster neutral, which as far as I can tell, as a non-Lucario player, consists of dash dancing and Double Team crossups. I suppose if, as you suggest, people were as good at comboing as they need to be, then dash attacking opponents' shields would be a viable option.

 

[muleet]

Hi, it's been some time since I posted on this forum (or since I tried to play seriously to PM), but I wanted to know one thing : is there a chance that Knuckles could be accepted in tournament in PM ? The character seemed quite finished, and since the PMDT has ceased development 2 years ago I guess there's practically no risks that Nintendo would take charges against them. (And why would Sega cares...) It's sad to say but I think Project M is slowly dying, so it's not much of a threat to Smash 4 anymore, then why not take Knuckles "officially" in the competition ? (I'm not sure there is still anyone who is an official authority concerning PM, anyway.)
And then try to understand where he should go in the tier list ?

I mean, why not ? His presence in Project M would be like, his best presence in a video game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
Edit : I admit that my question here is totally naive, maybe there are important stuff that I ignore that would prevent him from "officially" being in the game anyway. (I just think that it would be fun to watch him in tournament, that's why I asked.)

 

[mimgrim]

Pretty much no chance. The last official PM build by the PMDT was 3.6 and out of respect and to not cause any additional for them that is the build that will be used. So yea, no Knuckles.

 

[bboss]

is there a chance that Knuckles could be accepted in tournament in PM

no

 

[CursedKaiju]

What makes marth B tier?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

My thoughts on Lucario neutral: Character has the highest initial dash speed and has the stats/attributes to threaten the space immediately around him very well. Moves like fair and dtilt have huge range and lucario is obviously quite good vs block. He has good grab conversions and many ways to mix up pressure on shield via magic series/great movement stats and moves/his aforementioned dash speed etc. Lucario also has really good punishes and relatively good weight so these aspects positively influence how much you have to respect him. As a result his neutral is positively impacted. Saying Lucario has a bad neutral is a meme. DMG is right though, Lucario players go hot and cold so we're not seeing the character at its full potential yet.

My thoughts on Marth in B tier: Personally I'd see him fit better in with the A- tier. I'd do a little bit more moving around the second half of the A- tier but place him a little bit above Peach. The reason why Marth is relatively worse than he is in Melee despite not losing any tools is the environment he has to play in. Marth's midrange game is incredible as always but his up-close and long-range aren't as good so it's about mitigating that midrange advantage. Also, his gameplan while still good is inflexible compared to many PM characters so it falls off when characters can deal with fair spam and dd grab/dtilt. PM characters are better equipped to deal with his neutral and access easier/harder punishes than Marth in a lot of cases. This is more apparent (at least to me) when we look at the stage list which is relatively larger than it is in Melee, exacerbating marthritis and adding more variability into his punish game in an adverse way.

 

[Nohbl]

lol at this tier list

http://shoryuken.com/2017/09/10/project-ms-backroom-have-released-a-brand-new-tier-list-for-pm-3-6/

like wut

muleet it's entirely up to each individual tournament organizer. as far as the pm circuit goes I'd imagine that, for whatever reason, lots of people would be against his inclusion

CursedKaiju who knows

 

[muleet]

So I guess if I were to be a Project M player who mains Knuckles, living in the USA, and contacting every tournament organizer to let me play him in their tournament, there would be a little chance for him to be progressively accepted by the community. That's good to know. (It won't happen because of me though, since I don't really play PM anymore, and I live in France.)
Thanks for the answers.

 

[mimgrim]

You can't really be a PM player who mains Knuckles when Knuckles doesn't exist in the final build of pm. Versions after 3.6 are only leaks and not official. Thats what it really comes down to.

If we allow Knuckles it opens tge floodgates of why don't we use this leaked version of PM or why don't we also use x character x person made or why don't we use x stage that x person made (some regions do this latter one but it still creates a slippery slope).

 

[Nohbl]

You can't really be a PM player who mains Knuckles when Knuckles doesn't exist in the final build of pm.

At the end of the day, this game is a hack made by fans for fans. The definition of a Project M player shouldn't include which version one's playing. What does it matter what the PMDT intended when it's their players who play the game and have the power to pick what they like and don't like about it.

If we allow Knuckles it opens tge floodgates of why don't we use this leaked version of PM or why don't we also use x character x person made or why don't we use x stage that x person made

You say this as if these are bad debates to have.

 

[mimgrim]

So what if its a hack? So what if it was made by fans? What does it matter what any game develpor for any game they make when its the fans that play it?

Going on the "its just a mod bro" route is stupid and asinine and dumb.

I'm not saying doing any of those things is bad and that people shouldn't do that but adding any of those things in does indeed make PM less PMish because it still had a groupe of people who made it with a clear design goal to it.

Project M is defined by the people who made it, just like any other game. The fans define the community.

 

[Nohbl]

mimgrim rather presumptuous of you to call that approach dumb when you haven't even thought about it; taking what you say here as your last word, I suppose you'd say that people who add in lightsabers and monsters with giant heads aren't playing Skyrim.

I chose to focus on Project M's being a mod, but the same principle applies to any game. Indeed there are points at which changes produce something unrecognizable as the original, but an instance such as the inclusion of Knuckles, which was clearly the developer's intention, is far and away from another instance like the creation of PM itself from Brawl.