Tier List Speculation

[Funbot28]

K instead of always talking about how trash Bowser is, I want to share my own tier list based on my opinion on the meta as of know:

http://smashboards.com/tiers/#3,10,...#13,14,35,39.F#12,9,25.G#1.0,9,4,2,10,5,11,12

Ik I might get a lot of flaming, but like I always say, my opinion does not mean its the definitive answer, and I would like to discuss the difference in views with other more competent players. So all I am asking for is for constructive criticism on this debatable topic.

 

[Downdraft]

The Samus and Meta Knight boards seem inactive, so I'm asking about the matchup here.
What is Meta Knight supposed to do versus Samus? I'm clueless on where to begin with approaching her and initiating punishes.

 

[DMG]

Supposed to grab. If you don't grab, she generally holds down and counters. You want to encroach on her space, remove missile as a reasonable option (not enough time or space to activate), and then engage in some RPS where you choose between immediately grabbing her / shielding / DD barely outside her range. In some niche cases you might even be bold enough to activate your own CC/ASDI down against her.

People are used to nair-planing thru missles as other chars, adjust your mentality to dodge or shield instead. Could even start getting frisky and cheeky with dimensional cape. Old mentality of "can't Nair missiles and can't stop her CC GG 4:6 Samus Wins" is starting to die as people use their brains more with like a top 3 character.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

So you should go for grab.
And then the optimal combo tree is something like Uair, uair, uair,... uair, uair, uair, until you get something that leads into Shuttle loop, Cape or tornado if you want. Or you could just rack up a bunch of damage and edge guard her.

 

[_Chrome]

Hey I'm late but I'm a mk main.

Samus is too slow for mk, and our sword has huge range and speed as well. As others have pointed out you just have to use good movement to get in and never let her down. Encroach on her space as fast as you can and you win essentially.

As for stages, most stage lists are absolutely horrendous for samus so you're already off to a good start after the Character Selection Screen and the Stage Pick Screen. Take her anywhere you want, but I'd avoid DL (lol we still win here), and FoD (not as much lol, which is surprising because MK is super good here). Ban PS2. It lets her missile camp better. No other stages are problems that I can think of, especially since GHZ, SV, and sometimes Bowser's or DS are starters. In the NE9 list she will have to start on an FD-like stage so you basically get game 1 much more easily.

Best moves to lead to the uair strings (aka stock) are grabs, usmash, and when uncrouch-cancelled, your dash attack, ftilt, ftilt, and even side b if you want to be cheeky.

 

[Narelex]

Could also just join the MK discord because that's basically where we've migrated to.

Samus basically has can't get down syndrome against MK where her only chance of getting down is mixing up her timings with bombs, even then its still a struggle for her. MK has the speed to navigate her projectiles and up-b kills her at higher %'s since she's floaty.

TLDR Fast swordball hit floaty robot that can't crawl.

Not a fun MU for Samus but its not impossible for her either.

 

[Chevy]

Could also just join the MK discord because that's basically where we've migrated to.

Samus basically has can't get down syndrome against MK where her only chance of getting down is mixing up her timings with bombs, even then its still a struggle for her. MK has the speed to navigate her projectiles and up-b kills her at higher %'s since she's floaty.

TLDR Fast swordball hit floaty robot that can't crawl.

Not a fun MU for Samus but its not impossible for her either.

Up-b can kill Samus at like 60%. MK is dumb.

 

[Frost | Odds]

yo what's bowser's mu spread

Frost | Odds said something about him beating falco?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1apX-v49z6fUc6wyVp3fNYHd6QP-c01IWRm6q1TFByMM/edit#gid=0

 

[Bazkip]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1apX-v49z6fUc6wyVp3fNYHd6QP-c01IWRm6q1TFByMM/edit#gid=0

What are all these 0/-1 against Falcon.

That doesn't sound right in the slightest.

 

[Deleted member]

lol mk ****ing murders samus. mu is dog ****

 

[DMG]

What are all these 0/-1 against Falcon.

That doesn't sound right in the slightest.

I used to think many things about this MU, and then I played Odds





Been a couple months since then and it still hurts my cheeks to sit

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I used to think many things about this MU, and then I played Odds





Been a couple months since then and it still hurts my cheeks to sit

odds messed you up so much you're sitting on your face now?

 

[Bazkip]

I used to think many things about this MU, and then I played Odds





Been a couple months since then and it still hurts my cheeks to sit

Odds is the Falcon slayer I guess

In PM and Melee lol

 

[DMG]

I just had to relearn a bunch of things about the MU related to Neutral. Getting a silly Knee or Stomp was not a problem, but grabbing him or not getting poked out of my DD was surprisingly difficult. Also Odds as a player does not drop advantage much, meaning even when a lengthy conversion isn't there he's just so well positioned and prepared after the 2-3 smacks he gets. This was evident not just with his Bowser, but watching his Sonic in some friendlies. Solharath and I watched some, and both basically talked about how godly he was. Watching vs playing him is a whole different thing

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

watching odd's sonic on hitbox.tv/abpm is a religious experience

I'm not sure that sonic "fits" odds per se

but this is an educational experience on how to play smash fundamentally

of course as a luigi-exclusive player I'm beyond saving and can never learn fundamentals

 

[Frost | Odds]

im just angling for that PMS sponsorship monayyyy

Edit: no wait nvm I'm angling for this sponsorship monayyyy in particular

https://www.facebook.com/PermafrostGaming/

Edit2: holy crap actually thank you so much for the compliments guys. It's extremely motivating!

Edit3: super clutch, or choke artist? WHO KNOWS

https://clips.twitch.tv/ssbuniversity/MotionlessPoultryTriHard

https://clips.twitch.tv/ssbuniversity/VictoriousPartridgeVolcania

 

[PlateProp]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1apX-v49z6fUc6wyVp3fNYHd6QP-c01IWRm6q1TFByMM/edit#gid=0

Is squirtle -2 cause of those friendlies b4 aftershock

 

[Frost | Odds]

Maybe? I don't remember when I did that, but it is not a good MU for bowser :[

 

[Nausicaa]

Edit: no wait nvm I'm angling for this sponsorship monayyyy in particular

https://www.facebook.com/PermafrostGaming/

Where do I sign?
Or how do I get a petition going for you or whatever?
ha

 

[Chevy]

Maybe? I don't remember when I did that, but it is not a good MU for bowser :[

Big > Small.
Turtle = Turtle.
Therefore (Big + Turtle) > (Small + Turtle).
(Big + Turtle) = Bowser. (Small + Turtle) = Squirtle.

It follows that Bowser > Squirtle. MU is anywhere from 51-49 to 100-0 Bowser favor.

I swear you guys don't even think before you post.

 

[DMG]

Elements > Turtles

Water > Fire

Squirtle = Water, Bowser = Fire

Squirtle > Bowser

Now the shoe is on the other hand!

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

bowser has more armor than squirtle therefore clearly better character

also his dsmash comes out in one quarter of the time, therefore clearly better character

 

[Frost | Odds]

Where do I sign?
Or how do I get a petition going for you or whatever?
ha

Dunno, you could probably message them on facebook or something?

bowser has more armor than squirtle

In practical terms, he doesn't. His only functional move that's armored at a reasonable time is dash attack, and that's highly situational.

Compare to Squirtle's side b + nair + dsmash

 

[Chevy]

Dunno, you could probably message them on facebook or something?


In practical terms, he doesn't. His only functional move that's armored at a reasonable time is dash attack, and that's highly situational.

Compare to Squirtle's side b + nair + dsmash

Convince me that Bowser's n-air, d-smash, and crawl/d-tilt are not functional and useful armor moves.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Convince me that Bowser's n-air, d-smash, and crawl/d-tilt are not functional and useful armor moves.

shh

 

[DMG]

Nerf shh plz

 

[PlateProp]

Dunno, you could probably message them on facebook or something?


In practical terms, he doesn't. His only functional move that's armored at a reasonable time is dash attack, and that's highly situational.

Compare to Squirtle's side b + nair + dsmash

lmfao dsmash armor

good joke odds

 

[Player -0]

he's so small it might as well be armor.

I still don't like how D-Smash was handled. Even before it was nerfed, it was a wide tech coverage option (it like, covered everything if they were bad) while I see Squirtle as a technical fast paced character (he can slow game down like Fox but WG is cooler and stuff). Should've been like, an actual combo D-Smash that hits really small but scoops.


I have le insane ideas. Combo smashes

 

[JesteRace]

I have le insane ideas. Combo smashes

Somewhere in the distance, a Luigi is dabbing like a mfer.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Somewhere in the distance, a Luigi is dabbing like a mfer.

[DAB INTENSIFIES]

 

[eideeiit]

****post speculation

 

[Bazkip]

Design philosophy of the PM community
Myself included

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

throw release points in this game do not vary based on character weight, yes?

but throw iasa frames do vary, yes?

 

[shairn]

Some throws are weight dependant, some aren't.

 

[Player -0]

Release points are not affected afaik. They changed it so models don't matter either (I think) in whatevermacallit.

Which delayed the update for a while ;-;

 

[Bazkip]

Isn't ROB still kinda weird with some throws.

 

[KinGly]

Isn't ROB still kinda weird with some throws.

The second bit of sheiks dthrow and fthrow don't hit Rob so each one does like 2%. So yeah, R O B I S B U L L S H I T and all that lmao

 

[Strong Badam]

throw release points in this game do not vary based on character weight, yes?

but throw iasa frames do vary, yes?

They vary based on the character you're throwing. Not by weight. I don't have the chart anymore but each character has a Y-offset that is subtracted from the regular throw release point.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

They vary based on the character you're throwing. Not by weight. I don't have the chart anymore but each character has a Y-offset that is subtracted from the regular throw release point.

I mainly ask this because it feels like I have to wait a longer time to act after some throws when vs some heavy characters like bowser/yoshi

 

[Chevy]

I mainly ask this because it feels like I have to wait a longer time to act after some throws when vs some heavy characters like bowser/yoshi

It's not the IASA frames it's that the entire animation plays slower on heavier characters and vice versa. Which results in more frames of endlag even after they have been released. Most throws have this quality, there are exceptions. This is the only way weight affects throws, 100 weight is assumed for knockback purposes on every throw in every game(except Sm4sh maybe?).