Tier List Speculation

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Pit beats fox

 

[KinGly]

Deodorant beats Pit

 

[DMG]

Deodorant beats Pit

Apparently not in the Smash community

 

[Frakture]

Deodorant beats Pit

It does but it's a fairly uncommon matchup in the current meta.

 

[SoulPech]

Pit kills Dumbledore.

 

[Frost | Odds]

my list as of today

 

[CORY]

what was your thought process on wolf? it's not inconceivably low, but a lot of the general thought has him closer to top 5.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think he's overrated especially in terms of recovery; and his hitboxes (particularly aerial ones) just aren't nearly as good or reliable as Fox's, while he still has all of Fox's weaknesses, such as they are. All the arguments for a top 5 placement of wolf are based exclusively on theorycraft: he's never performed well at any major worth mentioning despite Wolf having been played by quite a few top players. At TAS level, I'm sure he's godlike, but it's not possible for humans to master 1-frame timings like the shortens on his side b, particularly in reaction-based combo situations in high-pressure tournament situations. In practice, I think he's pretty much just a worse Falcon.

 

[Player -0]

In practice shouldn't it be easier to be consistent due to easier escape from pressure situations though due to shine and a projectile that's threatening (of course can get baited into lasering but wavelanding allows some escape from run up shield or attack/etc)

 

[Kipcom]

Frost | Odds Pit's not bottom 2 come on bro lol

 

[DMG]

Frost | Odds Pit's not bottom 2 come on bro lol

You're right. I think even Bowser has more CP potential than Pit, remove angels from PM

 

[Kapapanerp]

All the arguments for a top 5 placement of wolf are based exclusively on theorycraft: he's never performed well at any major worth mentioning despite Wolf having been played by quite a few top players.

You could say the same for MK, no? On paper MK is amazing, yet we haven't really seen much high level MK play since 3.02. Last MK I remember placing decently was Guru at We Tech Those.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You could say the same for MK, no? On paper MK is amazing, yet we haven't really seen much high level MK play since 3.02. Last MK I remember placing decently was Guru at We Tech Those.

I suppose you could, but on the other hand we haven't had nearly the same scale of talent attempt (and fail) to main MK at a national level. I'll need to think about that. Or main MK. Or summon Boiko .

You're right. I think even Bowser has more CP potential than Pit, remove angels from PM

In Stage First, maybe. In Character First, which seems to be gaining prominence, absolutely not.

 

[DMG]

I suppose you could, but on the other hand we haven't had nearly the same scale of talent attempt (and fail) to main MK at a national level. I'll need to think about that. Or main MK. Or summon Boiko .


In Stage First, maybe. In Character First, which seems to be gaining prominence, absolutely not.

Ya in Char first Bowser is beyond trash.

MK needs just a bit more lab work, and a patient enough player imo. I think MK players throw away advantage too easily, not respecting what they already have or building up small advantages over risking the bigger play.

 

[JesteRace]

MK also feels like a super honest character for the most part. Probably not if you play like Falcon or Ganon, but against most of the cast, even if he wins on paper, which he probably does, he's "fair" and isn't really overwhelming. That's just how it seems atm. A lot of MK players think that the lack of results is just MK players being busters. Maybe if Plup actually played the game, MK would just be super busted and we'd truly be back in Brawl Hell.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I refuse to believe that mk can be anything less than godlike when he basically has sheik frame data plus a sword plus a marth dashdance

if lunchables played mk seriously we'd all be crying but he loves roy too much

 

[DMG]

MK also feels like a super honest character for the most part. Probably not if you play like Falcon or Ganon, but against most of the cast, even if he wins on paper, which he probably does, he's "fair" and isn't really overwhelming. That's just how it seems atm. A lot of MK players think that the lack of results is just MK players being busters. Maybe if Plup actually played the game, MK would just be super busted and we'd truly be back in Brawl Hell.

MK on paper is pretty overwhelming. You're assumed to out DD majority of the cast, with Sheik style tech chases (plus random wtf kill power from Cape), meaty lingering edgeguards, etc. If you mean honest because he has to grab more than some chars, and doesn't have brute force Knee / Shine / Lucas shield pressure, that's about the only definition that he seems capable of fitting in relation to that term.

Only MK player that gives me huge trouble (in an obviously losing MU for Falcon) has been Lunchables, and it's pretty obvious why. Solid neutral, doesn't get greedy on reads, maintains a consistent comfortable advantage. Just about everyone else, there's reasonable room to outplay if I can notice some approaching flaw, a predictable DD pattern, even minor greed in areas etc. Tighten up your gameplay, and it's honestly a risky proposition for many chars to seek an advantage vs MK.

So yeah it sounds entirely reasonable that MK players are slightly dropping the ball, based on what the char can do.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

>honest character

when did dd -> cc dtilt become honest

oh right, when people equated roy with honest

 

[trash?]

to play MK on the highest end, you have to be a really boring person, and when you have so many characters fairly close in strength to each other (and potentially far more interesting characters like diddy above him) that's a really hard sell

I kinda mentioned it before, but there's no familiarity from melee or new toys to work with that everyone around him has. he gets fundamental stuff with growth hormones strapped onto them, he wins trades, and he tech chases real well. that's all guaranteed top tier status, sure, but none of that results in something a player wants to get up in the morning to theorize about, this isn't a game where you even need a top tier to main, and even if it was, the only people who stick around PM already have an interesting character to stick with who can last

 

[DMG]

I don't even like the honest / dishonest paradigm to begin with. Implies like Captain Falcon will be indicted for Murder, because Uthrow Knee made him fail the Polygraph. Just call something lame or bad design and move on: we probably spend more time trying to quantify stuff in PM with phrases like Honest or Fair, and it's no wonder PM Player Neutrals are so trash

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

oh yeah my b I actually hate when people try to use the word honest as if it means something or another

I was just ****posting

 

[DMG]

The secret is you shatpost so hard, it becomes realpost. Then, all tier lists and PM discussion seems to make sense again

 

[Frost | Odds]

All "honest" means is the design conforms to expected affordances conditioned into players from other Smash and/or fighting games (ie. character is disadvantaged when cornered / in the air, doesn't have unreasonable reversals, etc). The counterplay is intuitive to people with good fundamentals.

 

[Nausicaa]

So... Mario?

Didn't Switchsomething do something recently?

Pit feels honest I suppose. He's really around the 'power level' that I figure would be healthiest/most awesome for a Smash game. PM is generally a few tiers 'above' that at all times.
Fax

 

[Frost | Odds]

Pit's honest to a fault. He just doesn't really have anything beyond the really obvious surface stuff.

Except against really huge characters and floaties.

 

[Tomaster]

I think he's overrated especially in terms of recovery; and his hitboxes (particularly aerial ones) just aren't nearly as good or reliable as Fox's, while he still has all of Fox's weaknesses, such as they are. All the arguments for a top 5 placement of wolf are based exclusively on theorycraft: he's never performed well at any major worth mentioning despite Wolf having been played by quite a few top players. At TAS level, I'm sure he's godlike, but it's not possible for humans to master 1-frame timings like the shortens on his side b, particularly in reaction-based combo situations in high-pressure tournament situations. In practice, I think he's pretty much just a worse Falcon.

5th at supernova is pretty good if you ask me. Higher than any MK major placing i can recall. Also, what top players play him seriously other than Switch and (newly) Drinkingfood?

 

[DrinkingFood]

My wolf is amazing and wolf is easily a top 5 character, but no real results yet from me so no need to count me tbh

 

[Life]

Switch has no notable wins...

 

[Deleted member]

I refuse to believe that mk can be anything less than godlike when he basically has sheik frame data plus a sword plus a marth dashdance

if lunchables played mk seriously we'd all be crying but he loves roy too much

fun fact lunchables did play MK for 3 weeks or so. he bodied most of the texas top players and then basically dropped the char.

 

[DMG]

Rumor has it, Lunchables still keeps MK in his pocket for filthy Falcon players

 

[CORY]

so, just take a shower before you play him and you won't be filthy.

 

[xquqx]

so, just take a shower before you play him and you won't be filthy.

Lunchables is the hero we need to get people to shower and be clean before tournaments

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Switch has no notable wins...

Can't tell if this is a joke or not cuz internet but I'm just gonna pretend like it isn't. Switch has wins over literally every player in NY/NJ except Zhime, which includes players like Malachi, DVD, Frozen, Jaden, etc. and also has wins on OoR players like Sosa, Professor Pro, Flipp, and other good players all using Wolf.

 

[Life]

Can't tell if this is a joke or not cuz internet but I'm just gonna pretend like it isn't. Switch has wins over literally every player in NY/NJ except Zhime, which includes players like Malachi, DVD, Frozen, Jaden, etc. and also has wins on OoR players like Sosa, Professor Pro, Flipp, and other good players all using Wolf.

It's a meme from the Wolf Discord. Believe me, we know.

 

[Boiko]

MK is an absolutely insane character. He loses to the three spacies, imo, and that's it. And even so, losing is a disingenuous term to describe the MU. Let's just say that they circumvent his typical gameplan.

The only think MK struggles with is characters that can CC punish his neutral options and that he has a hard time grabbing. He has a bit of difficulty navigating spacie laser/neutral games, and when he gets in, he has to deal with CC shine. If he does manage to get a grab, he can tech chase them out of CC percent and the MU becomes effectively even. It's just the early game that he struggles in. However, he can also opt to put a spacie off stage instead of tech chasing for more damage. If he hits his breand and butter edge guard, it was a favorable decision.

Beyond that, he has kill confirms on the entire cast. Grabbing Pit at 86% from the center of stadium is guaranteed death. He can dtilt into his 90 BKB up b on floaties. He can single hit ftilt into down b. He has throw mix ups, tech chasing with dsmash, randy nair, amazing edge guarding, teleport knee, etc.

There are no MK players at a high level because everyone plays him too honestly instead of abusing his broken traits. He literally should just be fishing for grabs and using his superior neutral to get it. Using DD and poking with dtilt is great and all. But against most of the cast, he can just throw moves at them and they can't do anything to contest it. Then he gets them to 90% and out comes up throw>down b. Playing against Tink, I literally throw him back on stage to keep tech chasing instead of going for an edge guard. Why go for an edge guard when I can just tech chase to 80%, grab, pummelx2>up throw>down b? I played against Mask's MK, and he would throw me off stage and go for nair edge guards. More often than not, I would make it back. If I grabbed him, it was guaranteed 90%/death. I even tech chased into combo'd his Zard to 89%. Like, this character is nuts off of a grab.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

you shatpost so hard, it became a realpost.

my specialty

 

[Frost | Odds]

Boiko I have a very hard time believing MK loses to Falco. Wolf is questionable too imo, but I can maybe buy it considering he can't clank the lasers.

 

[Zach777]

I thought he could clank Wolf laser with dash attack? Or am I mistaken? Maybe its just an always bad option?

 

[Strong Badam]

fun fact lunchables did play MK for 3 weeks or so. he bodied most of the texas top players and then basically dropped the char.

I never got to play it. Was durin my break. Did he ever play Oracle or Dakpo?

EDIT: yeah he just never played Me/Oracle/Dakpo aka 2-4 on our PR with his MK lol this post seems random

 

[Boiko]

Boiko I have a very hard time believing MK loses to Falco. Wolf is questionable too imo, but I can maybe buy it considering he can't clank the lasers.

It's a pretty popular opinion that Wolf is his worst MU. But that's the thing about MK, he's so good, it doesn't really matter that he "loses." If you instead focus on making the best decisions and not just swinging the sword, he'll do just fine, because he's very good.

To summarize, getting in on a lasering spacie is kind of hard. And his aerial approach options are limited because they all lose to CC shine, which then leads to a very meaty punish. Powershielding or forcing yourself in a position where the spacie has to perform something unsafe that you can DD grab are your best bests. Both are inconsistent and beat a "sure thing" that the spacies have, hence why he "loses." And his loss is only in the early game when dealing with CC. After that, it's effectively even.