Tier List Speculation

[Jonyc128]

Pretty sure you can cape Pikmin, is it really all that useful though?! Probably not

EDIT: NVM disregard what i said, Baz was talking about Ganon cape and not Mario's salt inducing cape

 

[Tomaster]

Try to guess what this list measures

 

[migul]

Try to guess what this list measures

Jank. Note JanknWatch's position.

 

[Ripple]

Or we could not and go back to reading something more interesting like olimar

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

that tierlist is actually the single most unhelpful thing I've seen posted in this thread in close to three years

 

[Tomaster]

Jank. Note JanknWatch's position.

more like "complained about characters", but close

that tierlist is actually the single most unhelpful thing I've seen posted in this thread in close to three years

You come here to find helpful stuff? Lol gl man..

 

[steelguttey]

Try to guess what this list measures

more like "complained about characters", but close

olimar should be higher

 

[FreeGamer]

Try to guess what this list measures

If this is supposed to be based on how much salt a character induces, Zelda and Luigi should be instant top 5. You dun goofed bruh.

 

[Life]

Why not NAir? Like, seriously, why even bother to just not SH NAir?

'cause DJC uair is really really really fast

you say that like it's a huge techskill investment, but if you do DJCs with tap jump it's really quite easy (certainly easier than DACUS) and it'll get a pikmin off you without suffering a ton of hitlag like nair has

so if you have a pikmin on you and you don't feel like approaching olimar at that instant (and the pikmin is somewhere that uair covers, which again, is most of Lucas' body but I'm not sure if it's all his body because it's been a while since I looked at Lucas things and hitting pikmin was definitely not one of them) it's probably pretty good

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

Try to guess what this list measures

Coolest player base

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What are people's opinions on Charizard in relation to the other fatties? Like, if you had to rank all the fatties (DDD, Bowser, DK, Charizard, Ganondorf, + any other characters you consider a fatty), how would you rank them? If I had to, mine would be:







In that order. I can see Charizard being better than DDD, but other than that, I am pretty confident in that order. Reasons:

Ganondorf
Decent at spacing people out, wavelands keep him really mobile, ff ac nair is really useful as a quick and hard to punish option, something most fatties don't have.

DK
Has a better neutral than people give him credit for with dtilt and bair both being great. Along with zard, is one of the faster fatties. Has great punishes and kill setups. Doesn't struggle with projectiles as bad as the others. Sadly his dd has fatty problems, holding him back from being way better. Has a Marth dash dance in initial dash duration and close in distance as well, but his flailing legs make the space he vacates shortly after dashing back to be really terrible.

DDD
I know nothing about DDD, this was a guess. Ripple gets results and I don't think highly of those below him.

Charizard
Like DK, but worse imo. He has a better recovery (and thus better edgeguards), but I think DK outdoes him in every other place. DK has better punishes, a better neutral (I will take dtilt, ac bair, nair, and grab over Zard jab, nair, ftilt, and grab any day), better kill confirms, I don't see the contest there. Zard jab is really solid, ftilt is cool, but I just don't see much potential here.

Bowser
I can't get a feel for what Bowser is supposed to do. Armor is weird. He has a good Up B OoS, crawl through stuff is good, but folds to grab a lot worse than the others. He can't space aerials like Ganondorf, I don't think his punish is as good DK, he doesn't have a decent recovery like Zard or DDD, I just don't see where Bowser shines that the others don't.


Correct and nitpick as you will. Just was playin around with the fatties and was curious between them who was better overall.

 

[PlateProp]

Just ask PlateProp to bestow his reaction times so you can convert your messup into snazzy platform jank

I'll give you my reaction times when @Umbreon learns to grab ledge instead of trying to dunk me with marth's dair when I sweetspot every time

So probably never

 

[Luk101]

What are people's opinions on Charizard in relation to the other fatties? Like, if you had to rank all the fatties (DDD, Bowser, DK, Charizard, Ganondorf, + any other characters you consider a fatty), how would you rank them? If I had to, mine would be:







In that order. I can see Charizard being better than DDD, but other than that, I am pretty confident in that order. Reasons:

Ganondorf
Decent at spacing people out, wavelands keep him really mobile, ff ac nair is really useful as a quick and hard to punish option, something most fatties don't have.

DK
Has a better neutral than people give him credit for with dtilt and bair both being great. Along with zard, is one of the faster fatties. Has great punishes and kill setups. Doesn't struggle with projectiles as bad as the others. Sadly his dd has fatty problems, holding him back from being way better. Has a Marth dash dance in initial dash duration and close in distance as well, but his flailing legs make the space he vacates shortly after dashing back to be really terrible.

DDD
I know nothing about DDD, this was a guess. Ripple gets results and I don't think highly of those below him.

Charizard
Like DK, but worse imo. He has a better recovery (and thus better edgeguards), but I think DK outdoes him in every other place. DK has better punishes, a better neutral (I will take dtilt, ac bair, nair, and grab over Zard jab, nair, ftilt, and grab any day), better kill confirms, I don't see the contest there. Zard jab is really solid, ftilt is cool, but I just don't see much potential here.

Bowser
I can't get a feel for what Bowser is supposed to do. Armor is weird. He has a good Up B OoS, crawl through stuff is good, but folds to grab a lot worse than the others. He can't space aerials like Ganondorf, I don't think his punish is as good DK, he doesn't have a decent recovery like Zard or DDD, I just don't see where Bowser shines that the others don't.


Correct and nitpick as you will. Just was playin around with the fatties and was curious between them who was better overall.

Ganon is definitely the best fatty, I agree with you there. DK is farther from the top, but having falcon like combos where you have options for pretty much everyone helps him out immensely.

Zard is better than DDD IMO, and has a better matchup spread due to his run speed and having more useful aerials overall. DDD is a better counterpick character against FE and spacies, but Zard can actually be solo mained against everyone fairly well, and has more well rounded tools to deal with bad matchups.

I'd put Zard and DK pretty damn close together, then DDD farther below, then even further down would be Bowser. I feel like Zard and DK are the most well rounded characters and best suited for solo maining them, but Ganon is great for "Junebugging": counterpicking to a small stage and just killing your opponent off of one neutral mistake. DDD is good for Counter picking against say a fox that you are having trouble with (like what machiavelli does), but isn't really that good at handling a lot of other characters, or at least not in a very fun way lol. And then Bowser I guess is well rounded for the most part, but isn't particularly good at counter picking compared to Ganon, so the only people who play bowser are those dedicated players who wanna solo main him.

 

[SunJester]

For whatever its worth I like to listen to everyone's opinions on matchups and placings in this game, everyone has a different experience that can lead to unique insights. I weigh better players opinions more highly because they've had more experience than those who aren't as good at the game.

I wish more top players would post in this thread more, I can understand it being difficult but I think it would help against the spread of misinformation and help with the development of some of the new players. I really like digesting as much knowledge about this game as I can, and I'm aware there's a lot left to learn, so I always value those people who've pushed their game to the next level to add insight into the game, even if its tidbits of information here and there.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

bowser strikes me as an in-progress experiment in attempting to find what can be done to make a fatty "good" as well as "interactive" and "fun"

no heavyweight character has ever been good in smash, the closest thing is brawl snake/ddd and possibly smash4 dk which are only good because of certain busted aspects and inability of the rest of the cast to do anything

so the pmdt attempted to make the fattest and heaviest character in the game viable, and they succeeded, at least with the viable part. they tacked heavy or super armor on to a slew of his moves in 3.02, which didn't address the intrinsic issues of his large size, limited mobility, negative disjoint, and slow frame data, but patched over them by the fact that they could power through other moves.

this could have been an acceptable solution, even if it still placed bowser near the extreme of every spectrum. bowser had decent tourney performances and had the tools to be relevant, but despite bowser's still very clear weaknesses, some players hated the way that bowser was "braindead" and "non-interactive." when faced with the community's inability to press the z button more often and egged on by odds' "bowser essay", the pmdt went about with some major changes to bowser in the name of "interactivity" that included reducing or getting rid of armor, normalizing bowser's size and jumpsquat, and speeding up some moves.

it was a step in the direction of making bowser more of a "regular character" but it was still clearly a work in progress. armor is no longer tacked on willy-nilly, bowser has a frame 4(?) dsmash, and he's a little bit more mobile, but issues still remain. he still has the singularly longest jumpsquat in the game, he still has negative disjoint on a great deal of his moves, and he still doesn't have the speed in frame data, durability in armor, or range to offset his large size.

without making a fat character be an extreme outlier in one of these areas (which in itself runs the risk of being declared "broken") I fear that it's impossible in an environment like smash to have such a large and heavy character like bowser be viable.

sure pmdt has attempted to turn bowser in a sort of grappler but they didn't give him enough range or tools to overcome his sheer inability to get in. they might either have given him these tools in the future but that was ended and we're left with a bowser that is hamstrung and has to play "normal" smash despite being a character archetype that is historically terrible at functioning in a smash environment

 

[DMG]

I don't think there's a lot of benefit from posting tier or viability speculation to the masses. You subject yourself to getting fierce responses based on character placements you admittedly may not be confident about to begin with AND CLEARLY STATE THIS (anyone under top 20 for example), from people who then posts crazy lists like Pikachu 2nd best. It's not enlightenment, it's a headache.


There's also not really a great incentive that separates Smashboards from other avenues. I can message a lot of people personally over facebook, skype, etc. Want to bother Lunchables? I can do it in 4 clicks and develop a rapid conversation. Smashboards is not ideal for that. I can write a post, come back 12 hours later and check how godly it was based on likes or positive responses, but I can't easily bounce off ideas and thoughts the same. Smashboards could be seen as like fermentation: stuff sits out in the open and takes time to develop.


Smashboards would have to have a backroom for PM or something similar for it to have the same worth or impact imo. Dev team had their stuff, but at this point 6 months into the future I'd be down to see a PMBR. Although if people decide to make a PMBR on Facebook, then possible RIP


I mean I post here all the time but I'm actually bad so it's ok

 

[Deleted member]

I'll give you my reaction times when @Umbreon learns to grab ledge instead of trying to dunk me with marth's dair when I sweetspot every time

So probably never

it doesnt work to disrespect up b timing, its pretty easy to hit marth as he slides off the stage because your recovery is multihit. also if you hit me, it functions as a conversion since it puts me in the air at positional disadvantage while you get to abuse marths bad combo weight or at least reset to neutral. so its just not worth the risk at all. rising multihit high BKB recoveries are always hard to edge hog vs good players for the same reason, like say 3.5 roy. unlike roy though, squirtle can reliably recover along the wall with his up b and buffer an input for the tech so no matter what i do it absolutely won't kill you. it's almost unilaterally better to use aggressive edge movement to encourage you to disrespect up b early and punish the endlag. but i don't actually have anything that reliably prevents squirtle's recovery as marth other than you blatantly misplaying it, particularly on YS where we played because dtilt doesnt hit the edge even if you miss the sweetspot for whatever reason. don't get all trolly with me because you don't understand your own character.

 

[DMG]

I wouldn't try to dunk anyone with the reaction time of Plate either. Dude doesn't need a buffer, he'll see your sword in slo-mo.

 

[PlateProp]

I wouldn't try to dunk anyone with the reaction time of Plate either. Dude doesn't need a buffer, he'll see your sword in slo-mo.

New sig time

it doesnt work to disrespect up b timing, its pretty easy to hit marth as he slides off the stage because your recovery is multihit. also if you hit me, it functions as a conversion since it puts me in the air at positional disadvantage while you get to abuse marths bad combo weight or at least reset to neutral. so its just not worth the risk at all. rising multihit high BKB recoveries are always hard to edge hog vs good players for the same reason, like say 3.5 roy. unlike roy though, squirtle can reliably recover along the wall with his up b and buffer an input for the tech so no matter what i do it absolutely won't kill you. it's almost unilaterally better to use aggressive edge movement to encourage you to disrespect up b early and punish the endlag. but i don't actually have anything that reliably prevents squirtle's recovery as marth other than you blatantly misplaying it, particularly on YS where we played because dtilt doesnt hit the edge even if you miss the sweetspot for whatever reason. don't get all trolly with me because you don't understand your own character.

I cant tech if you dont hit me

Stop being afraid of being hit like everyone else and just grab ledge. Much worse players than you can do it, stop being lazy

 

[DrinkingFood]

it doesnt work to disrespect up b timing, its pretty easy to hit marth as he slides off the stage because your recovery is multihit. also if you hit me, it functions as a conversion since it puts me in the air at positional disadvantage while you get to abuse marths bad combo weight or at least reset to neutral. so its just not worth the risk at all. rising multihit high BKB recoveries are always hard to edge hog vs good players for the same reason, like say 3.5 roy. unlike roy though, squirtle can reliably recover along the wall with his up b and buffer an input for the tech so no matter what i do it absolutely won't kill you. it's almost unilaterally better to use aggressive edge movement to encourage you to disrespect up b early and punish the endlag. but i don't actually have anything that reliably prevents squirtle's recovery as marth other than you blatantly misplaying it, particularly on YS where we played because dtilt doesnt hit the edge even if you miss the sweetspot for whatever reason. don't get all trolly with me because you don't understand your own character.

don't even bother with plate lmao
I've had this discussion with him about squirtle's recovery already
he has the same mentality I had back a few years ago when PM was still on smashmods
"My character isn't amazing at X, its just that nobody knows the matchup!"
which is super common with people playing annoying ass characters that also ***** about them being bad
read: yoshi players, snake players, squirtle players, i'm sure i'll hear it from a GnW eventually too wait actually I already have

 

[PlateProp]

don't even bother with plate lmao
I've had this discussion with him about squirtle's recovery already
he has the same mentality I had back a few years ago when PM was still on smashmods
"My character isn't amazing at X, its just that nobody knows the matchup!"
which is super common with people playing annoying *** characters that also ***** about them being bad
read: yoshi players, snake players, squirtle players, i'm sure i'll hear it from a GnW eventually too wait actually I already have

You had several people tell you that you were wrong too lol.

But yeah, grabbing ledge while squirtle is upbing at it is a completely unviable option and no one should ever do it and let Squirtle recover for free

 

[DrinkingFood]

But yeah, grabbing ledge while squirtle is upbing at it is a completely unviable option and no one should ever do it and let Squirtle recover for free

W H A T I S A S T R A W M A N

 

[PlateProp]

W H A T I S A S T R A W M A N

W H A T I S S A R C A S M

When are we going to just get a room and make out already?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

and people say that top players posting in this thread is a good thing Keepo

 

[Farquaad]

it doesnt work to disrespect up b timing, its pretty easy to hit marth as he slides off the stage because your recovery is multihit. also if you hit me, it functions as a conversion since it puts me in the air at positional disadvantage while you get to abuse marths bad combo weight or at least reset to neutral. so its just not worth the risk at all. rising multihit high BKB recoveries are always hard to edge hog vs good players for the same reason, like say 3.5 roy. unlike roy though, squirtle can reliably recover along the wall with his up b and buffer an input for the tech so no matter what i do it absolutely won't kill you. it's almost unilaterally better to use aggressive edge movement to encourage you to disrespect up b early and punish the endlag. but i don't actually have anything that reliably prevents squirtle's recovery as marth other than you blatantly misplaying it, particularly on YS where we played because dtilt doesnt hit the edge even if you miss the sweetspot for whatever reason. don't get all trolly with me because you don't understand your own character.

The disjoint on Squirtle's up B is only relatively large on the very last hitbox. It's incredibly easy to just grab ledge, wait, and roll if the Squirtle sweetspots. It's slow and predictable. It has little to no float, so if you roll after seeing he's trying to sweetspot, the Squirtle is always going to die. Just don't be afraid. Again, the disjoint is barely even there until the end.

And if they don't sweetspot with up b, you have an eternity of endlag to punish.

People who complain about Squirtle's up B don't want to learn. This **** isn't hard.

 

[DrinkingFood]

oh look

another squirtle main chronically underrating their recovery

what a surprise

 

[Farquaad]

oh look

another squirtle main chronically underrating their recovery

what a surprise

I don't think Squirtle has a bad recovery. Umbreon said he gets hit by the multihit when trying to wd back and grab edge. But you don't have to "yoink!" his recovery; you can grab ledge at any time and, at that point, you have complete advantage. Again, since there is no float and not enough disjoint to knock you off the ledge when you have it grabbed, you can just roll. They die if they sweetspot, they eat a punish if they land onstage.

Squirtle has a lot of tools to vary his recovery, from wallcling and jumps and pre-emptive withdraw to wavebounce WG shenanigans, but his up B is easy to deal with if the Squirtle is choreographing it. Most Squirtles do. The issue being described is an easy one to deal with. "Oh another Squirtle" doesn't counter it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm pretty sure that's not what umbreon was saying. squirtle already has several tools to get you off the edge (and to get close enough to do this from far distances) that accounting for them all generally leaves up-b as the thing to hit you off it. It's not so much constantly getting hit by up-b as it is a lot of mix-ups for recovery on a character that's already hard to punish.

 

[DMG]

and people say that top players posting in this thread is a good thing Keepo

I have 0 reply to this. I beat up Squirtles and move on, what's everyone concerned about?

 

[Farquaad]

That's fair, and I'd agree that it can be difficult to punish a Squirtle who uses all those options. However, all that was mentioned was the Up-B, and in the game in question Umbreon continuously tried to ledge hop dair/dair the recovery by ledge and got hit by the disjoint instead of just rolling. If we're talking about mixups, that's a whole different story, but not a single other option Squirtle has was mentioned - just his Up-B.

 

[PlateProp]

He actually wasnt even ledge hopping, he was just trying to straight dair me out of sh hop near the ledge

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

why can't we go back to talking about olimar

 

[Deleted member]

There's also not really a great incentive that separates Smashboards from other avenues. I can message a lot of people personally over facebook, skype, etc. Want to bother Lunchables? I can do it in 4 clicks and develop a rapid conversation. Smashboards is not ideal for that. I can write a post, come back 12 hours later and check how godly it was based on likes or positive responses, but I can't easily bounce off ideas and thoughts the same. Smashboards could be seen as like fermentation: stuff sits out in the open and takes time to develop.

Bobby you know that you're never a bother to me <3

if any of you other fuccbois message me though I'll chop your head off

 

[DMG]

why can't we go back to talking about olimar

I have a better idea. Let's discuss how Captain Falcon is #1 and why he wins every MU

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

because falcon is a dumb broken character with an upair that outclasses half the cast and guaranteed kill followups off grab

 

[DMG]

This is already 500% better than Olimar or Squirtle talks. I'm so proud.

Edit: Everyone should have a Falcon to cover MU's

 

[Farquaad]

He actually wasnt even ledge hopping, he was just trying to straight dair me out of sh hop near the ledge

Well that's just plain stupid, if you're not even going to utilize ledge invincibility...that option just isn't going to work, especially on Yoshi's, be better off even just countering or something lmao.

Like if you know an option doesn't work and you keep going back to it, you shouldn't pick that option, that's as bad as someone who gets hit by double laser from edge consistently. Most character complaints can be solved by not being dumb

 

[DrinkingFood]

also fun to discuss is how cstick inputs working for SDI makes SDIing easier since you can input more with the same control stick inputs and just add a cstick flick. Basically you're either a bigger window (more frames during which SDI could occur if hit since more frames would have potential SDI inputs) and/or farther SDI. This affects every character of course, so its not so much a nerf to him but... RIP badly spaced fox upairs

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

rip any of lucas' moves

 

[SunJester]

I don't think there's a lot of benefit from posting tier or viability speculation to the masses. You subject yourself to getting fierce responses based on character placements you admittedly may not be confident about to begin with AND CLEARLY STATE THIS (anyone under top 20 for example), from people who then posts crazy lists like Pikachu 2nd best. It's not enlightenment, it's a headache.

I'm really not seeing a necessity to tier list speculation at this point (especially one open to the general public), however I think (and I'd like to think most people would agree) that a general metagame thread where information is posted would be beneficial to the community.

Something like : "today I discovered something about the Mario vs Bowser matchup, you have to spin him into the bombs" or something to that effect.

I know there's character boards, but I don't think it would hurt to have a general discussion "meta-game" thread. Which honestly, this thread tends towards far more than tier list speculation.

There's also not really a great incentive that separates Smashboards from other avenues. I can message a lot of people personally over facebook, skype, etc. Want to bother Lunchables? I can do it in 4 clicks and develop a rapid conversation. Smashboards is not ideal for that. I can write a post, come back 12 hours later and check how godly it was based on likes or positive responses, but I can't easily bounce off ideas and thoughts the same. Smashboards could be seen as like fermentation: stuff sits out in the open and takes time to develop.

I agree, but no one really wants 100 people messaging them on facebook or on twitter asking for advice. (Lunchables seems quite adverse to the idea) On smashboards the top players can pick and choose what to respond to at their own leisure, and they're more than welcome to post their own thoughts on matchups, techniques and whatnot.

Its not going to be a place where its on-demand knowledge, but rather a slow acquisition over time.

Smashboards would have to have a backroom for PM or something similar for it to have the same worth or impact imo. Dev team had their stuff, but at this point 6 months into the future I'd be down to see a PMBR. Although if people decide to make a PMBR on Facebook, then possible RIP

I agree wholeheartedly. I think it would be worth it for a lot of top players/people who are really good at metagame analysis, to create a backroom. First I'd like to see them seriously consider a universal stage list (That Nebraska one seems pretty good...) and universal rule sets, to solidify the community.



Sorry if this response seems unsolicited, but I'm disliking this trend of "please don't ask us questions, and don't discuss it yourself because you're not good enough at this game" (not accusing you specifically of this)