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Tier List Speculation

Kapapanerp

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 16, 2014
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I've noticed that :mewtwopm: has been getting placed alot lower in the tier lists posted recently. Seems about a month ago he was usually thought to be just under the top tiers, but now the general consensus is he's high-mid/mid tier. Is it because the lack of representation or does he falter vs some important characters?
 

Farquaad

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I remember hearing that bucket braking with Jank&Watch can't be removed or changed... Kind of like the Brawl tethers vs Melee tethers. It's kind of like a glitch. That being said, a character as fast, aggressive, and light as G&W shouldn't be able to live so long.
I believe the most optimal solution is to remove G&W completely. Everyone wins. Even G&W mains, because now they don't have to live with the horrifying reality of maining G&W
 

Soft Serve

softie
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Beorn

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I would argue DK and Puff are poor man's versions of Wario, who encompasses the strengths of both of those characters.

EDIT: Y'all should be watching the Super Monday Project MDVA stream. So nostalgic, so much fun!
Yeh, this actually really bothers me. Why is wario heavy jiggs with a great ground game and BETTER air speed? Kinda makes her pointless. He even gets a rest every minute that can be used as a recovery option as well as being 3 times his size. Wario bothers me in general though. Hes absurd in his design. My janky day one wario does better than any other character I have.
 
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Kipcom

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idk why wario isn't forced to charge for waft ala ivysaur solarbeam (although possibly not at long as Ivy's charge time).
 

nimigoha

Smash Ace
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Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
Waft every 3 bites, make waft not as crazy kill power or make it slightly harder to combo into (like not a 50/50).
 

Beorn

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idk why wario isn't forced to charge for waft ala ivysaur solarbeam (although possibly not at long as Ivy's charge time).
Why does the character with the best aerial momentum in the entire game by a wide margin have an aerial command grab that does 13% and is a 50 50 on a character with some of the strongest combos and kill moves in the game? IDK... 7 frame fsmash that hits at a shiek fair angle... 15% 3 frame nair that hits at a semi spike angle... Dsmash.... Uthrow to free kill... Side B. Un-sdiable, un-cc-able, Dacus-able Usmash that does 18%... 3 frame jab that sets up for anything... 5 frame Dtilt that sets up for anything... 16% auto-cancelable safe on shield Bair... One of the best grab games in the game with not one throw being useless... The best footstool game in the game.... I could go on.

Idk man on paper this character is completely busted. I'm not calling anyone out, I just don't understand how this character is in the same game with Jiggs, and Dk. This seems pretty blatantly a problem from a balance perspective.

nimigoha nimigoha Yeh actually I was taking with @Mr.Pickle about bite being used to charge waft. I like this idea a lot. I have still yet to see anyone play warios waft game optimally. Camp.
 
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Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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bite isn't a 50/50

go into frame advance and look at the differences between forward and back. this is directed at everyone honestly
 
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JesteRace

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Toon Link being this much better than Link really does piss me off. Yes, he should be faster and have better mobility. Of course. But why the hell does he also get better projectiles, safer normals, and not have any less killing power? Why is all Link has over Toon Link better range and a semi-reliable chaingrab? The biggest insult is that Link's grab got gimped to "fix" a bug that was merely an aesthetic issue, but Toon Link's grab, which HAS THE SAME BUG, was untouched.

Like, holy crap, I know we don't want 3.02 Link back, but how is this fair? For the record, I don't want Tink nerfed, but the fact that there seems to be no practical reason to play Link over Toon Link is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.
 

_Chrome

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Thanks for elaborating Beorn Beorn . I was talking about this with, once again, Avro-Arrow Avro-Arrow about PM and designs and such, and it really comes down to the fact that his aerial game is very Puff-esque as well as having the Waft that comes every minute.

Let's talk about how he almost completely invalidates DK outside of the Fire Emblem MUs. To begin, he has a command grab (I think command grabs are really poorly designed/janky btw) that often forces combo and kill setups kind of like DK. Yet the difference here is that Wario can cargo throw people in the motherf*cking air.

Wario has a smaller size (meaning he's harder to hit), greater speed including air mobility, he arguably kills earlier and more consistently, has similar uair juggling capabilities, an arguably better bair, more useful fair, better dair, better dsmash, an OP dacus, better fsmash, and the "GO" shoulder charge to maneuver around the stage at great speed.

One could even argue that Wario has a better/safer recovery than DK. So what is DK better at? His grabs lead into easier kill confirms. Okay... he has more weight and better range on his moves. That's basically it from a general and practical standpoint.

Also, the fact that Wario has these DK-esque attributes combined with fantastic weave means that Jiggs doesn't cut it compared to him. Wario lives longer and has an arguably better neutral game against the full cast and easier kill confirms. Wario is also much better than Puff on the ground, and doesn't have a single bad move in his arsenal, much unlike Jigglypuff.

It's no wonder Strong Bad switched from DK to Wario.

Wario is to DK as Tink is to Link. The competitive version of the meh OG counterpart.
 
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nimigoha

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877
bite isn't a 50/50

go into frame advance and look at the differences between forward and back. this is directed at everyone honestly
That's interesting, will definitely check it out in the morning. I was under the impression that proper DI for forward bite throw was a guaranteed followup if they spat you in the backwards and vice versa.
 

Avro-Arrow

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So glad we're talking about this _Chrome _Chrome . And Ripple's right: remember when you played Morks, he said there are guaranteed punishes out of Bite... which is stupid as **** since it's so easy to land one with his mobility, and forces mix-ups (i.e. he can beat shield with Bite or **** you up with any of his aerials, which either lead into huge combo strings or have huge kill power [although, in reality, they often do both]). Not only that, but it does huge damage. Like, you'd think that for a command grab that has guaranteed edge guard/juggle/ko opportunities, it'd at least be compensated with weak initial damage output. But no. You'd also figure that it'd be reasonable to have a "barely defensible" trait (in quotation marks because it really isn't defensible) as @Umbreon said, but Wario also has "GO" Shoulder charge, and Waft.

If ZSS' back air is considered barely defensible, how come Wario gets a full kit of aerials with similar utility and the ability to weave like Puff? Not only does Wario have weave like Puff, but he also has the ability to a relatively decent fast fall, meaning, coupled with his weave, he can get in from the air extremely easily, and like Fox, can get you to throw something out and then swoop in quickly with any aerial, which as already mentioned, lead into basically everything and the kitchen sink (which he probably ate too, I mean, he eats motorcycles...).

It's not even that he's all air game, command grab, and waft. While his aerial game is strong, his grounded game is also incredibly good. This may be a little bit of hyperbole, but his ground game shines through in its ability to transition back and forth with his air game incredibly smoothly. Aerials on shield/weak nair/fair lead smoothly into Smashes, dtilt, and grabs (or alternatively, run away/'nother aerial), which can lead into either edge guards, or guess what? More juggles! Which eventually lead into edge guards/bair/uair chains. AKA death.

His punish game isn't even limited there. More on his ground game next. Wario has some of the best tech chasing ability in the game. He can cover tech in place/missed tech with dtilt, tech in with a re-grab, and tech away with "GO" shoulder charge. And these are only the most basic of tech coverage options (I'm no expert on Wario; this is just what I observe, ergo, take this suppository with a grain of salt; it may only be possible to cover tech away by read, although I doubt this). He can still get you with janky af dsmash, usmash, fsmash, and others if he really wants to style (aka Waft). And as Beorn Beorn said IIRC, his throws don't even stop there in terms of usefullness... like come on. Puff loses kill power on her fthrow, and Wario gains an even better one (as if he didn't already invalidate her already). Wario's bthrow also sets up edge guards, but it can do so from anywhere on the stage. Really? I'm so glad that the Dev team has come up with a throw that invalidates stage positioning all on its own with two inputs! And his uthrow we already know is good.

Overall, Wario's tools allow him to nearly never be in a disadvantageous state. His mobility in the air, coupled with his ability to move on the ground quickly with a fast initial dash speed and wave dash, means that on reaction, he can adjust his micro-spacing at any time to avoid getting hit. This circumvents his supposed weakness, his range, which doesn't matter when you're able to space just outside of the opponent's range and be able to punish regardless of whether you're in the air or on the ground. This makes his defensive game very strong.

Speaking of his defensive game, Wario has incredibly dangerous moves that come out quickly, cover a multitude of spaces, and deal very high damage (i.e. Shoulder charge, smashes, dtilt, etc.). This means that you always have to respect Wario, as he can adjust his spacing quickly and hit you hard for it. He's also able to zone you out very effectively through fairs, à la Jigglypuff. Which means that you can't always hope to blitz through him to get in. You'll get stuffed.

Honestly, this post is so horribly written (granted, it is 3:00 AM) and there are a lot of things that I wanted to talk about but never got around to, but the message presents itself at least a little bit. Now this may start to seem like a salt mine, but I think Wario's one of those characters that never should have made it over from 3.0 the way he did. Trimming the fat they said? Wario barely fits into his size 42 overalls as it is. Seriously, he's one of the most unintuitive characters in the game and he's straight up the easiest example for someone to point to this game and denounce it as janky. Like wtf. GaW is janky and he can't even compete with this crap. I haven't even played against a real Wario and even I can see he has serious design problems. But, it doesn't really take a genius to see all of this I guess.
--------------------------~-----------------------------~-------------------------------
TL;DR, Wario's punishes are nuts. DK-esque in the ground or air, with a Puff-like air game and ability to micro-space on the ground plus a kit that makes for a safe offensive game, a nearly impenetrable defensive wall, and superb zoning kit. As well as easy to land kill moves that threaten a bunch of space. As well as a varied kit that can handle most every situation well.

Oh yeah, and perhaps lots of exaggeration <3 #Nofilters
 

Beorn

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Where were all you people the thousands of times I've said wario is broken? Why do I see him consistently lower on tier lists than he should be? Remember when everyone thought he was mid tier? He was even more crazy back then.

Ripple with the knowledge as always.

I need to change my avatar for this torrent of incoming salt. Links had a hard life. Been bad in every smash game to date. He's so very tired...

So can we talk about how wario is at an advantage when hes on the ledge, or how his up-b still ****s you out at semi spike angles even though this was "fixed"? What about how his nair can cross up shields with the second hit hitting so low that you can't punish him for it nearly ever? 10 frame aerial shoulder bash punishing you for HITTING HIM. It never ends.


JesteRace JesteRace "You can't compare Link and Toonlink they are totally different characters!" -Everyone that doesn't play Link

I'm honestly not gonna clog up this thread with the holy hylian bible of Link's bad scripture. If you guys want to know specifics of why this character has problems that isn't just "hes slow" I have made very comprehensive long posts on his frame data and quirks in the Link character sub section.

I should also say that I'm sure the PMDT knows Link isn't a good character.

Avro-Arrow Avro-Arrow My avatars since 3.5 in order... 218553_squirrellyjack_rupoor.png outrage bd144a7b8d8a97899afafc2aa9d71345.jpg incredulity Link is so dunn.jpg Acceptance. He's come a long way.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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Beorn Beorn At first, his avatar expressed his outrage at the fact that Link was still kinda bad... like, U wot?

Now, he's past the initial frustration and done.

LOL.

Honestly, I can't see anyone dropping Wario outside top 15 on their tier lists. Like, you are what you eat, and he has to have eaten a whole lot of jank to be able to be that fat and that frustrating to play against.
 

_Chrome

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Wario is probably at least as good as Lucario or Captain Falcon at this point, now that I think about it. I recall thinking this when I made the first draft of my tier list and had him in the A+ tier.

To be fair he probably is more janky (which basically means 'unintuitive', or 'poorly designed') than Mr. Jank & Watch itself, if only slightly so. Maybe I/we should begin working or contemplating the idea of a Project M Jank Tier List...

EDIT:

I made the first draft of the Jank tier list. It's meant for fun and has the added side effect of injecting salt. Don't be too butthurt.

For some reason I couldn't upload the picture. I swear on me mum I'm not being a tech noob this time.

Characters are generally ordered from left to right (jank to less jank) within tiers. Given that this is the very first Project M Jank Tier List, it is bound to receive criticism and have many flaws, just like pretty much every theory/tier list made for a game. Characters in the J+++ Tier have excess jank. It isn't necessarily bad, but can be unappealing or uninteractive for people to fight against. As you move down the list characters become less janky.

The "Trad." tier means 'Traditional', as in the character employs very few janky tactics. An example of this would be Roy, which is a pretty standard sword-wielding fighter (outside of the lol B move). Just because a character has tricks or something like a chain throw doesn't necessarily mean they're janky.

The fact that I'm putting reasoning behind my list means either I or someone else is or will be taking this list too seriously. Stay salty, my friends.

Avro-Arrow Avro-Arrow assisted in the creation of this list.
 

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Beorn

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Wario is probably at least as good as Lucario or Captain Falcon at this point, now that I think about it. I recall thinking this when I made the first draft of my tier list and had him in the A+ tier.

To be fair he probably is more janky (which basically means 'unintuitive', or 'poorly designed') than Mr. Jank & Watch itself, if only slightly so. Maybe I/we should begin working or contemplating the idea of a Project M Jank Tier List...
Last thread derailing post from me... Though this is a good discussion topic when speaking of tiers in this game.

I present my Project "Meh" Janky design tier list : No fun allowed addition.
no fun allowed.png


Characters like DK, pit and kirby made it on the list because they have some really un-intuitive or lame optimal play styles while still being not great.

Ganon, Falcon, Shiek all made it on the list for stupid safe moves with ridiculous damage and absurd hitbubble sizes. (falcon and ganon ass grabs and broken throws)

Ic's and Puff have always been janky. We knew this 14 years ago. Rng is janky. If they are not on the list I don't think they are janky. Characters like MK, Diddy, or wolf just have extremely good attributes. Not jank.
 

Avro-Arrow

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LOL _Chrome _Chrome don't forget my input... I don't care so much about my input content-wise but some recognition for my "J Lo" streak of brilliance would be nice. Nice editing Beorn Beorn .
 

nimigoha

Smash Ace
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Jan 31, 2014
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Bowser needs to go way higher up on the jank list. And Fox is good but not Jank
Oh yeah frame 1 semi spike jump out of on frame 4 that leads to guaranteed follow ups on half the cast on stage that's some good jank right there m8 sorry to burst your bubble.

_Chrome _Chrome play a DK who tech chases with Down B and tell me that's not jank. Or that getting carried by his Up B can do 30+%.

Marth Fthrow>Tipper can kill at 20%.

Ganon has Dthrow.

Samus has SWD and Boost Ball.

Sheik is dum.

Like guys every single character has jank this game is fun. 3.02 was hilariously stupid but there's still loads of character individuality.
 

Kipcom

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Waft every 3 bites, make waft not as crazy kill power or make it slightly harder to combo into (like not a 50/50).
I think forcing waft to ONLY charge upon landing bite would be too much of a change for Wario, and not in a good way.

For example, Ivy has ways of getting solar beam charge (sweetspotted up airs and sweetspotted down airs), but she also still has a way to manually charge for her solar beam. Every other character who charges for an attack either can outright charge it, or they keep using the move until RNG allows the strongest version of the move (misfire, 9, stitch faces) to show up next.

Right now, I feel that the way waft is designed is kind of polarizing, but so is yours.
Currently, I don't feel like there's any way to counter the chance of waft happening. Whether I go in aggressively or I decide to play super campy, Wario is still going to get waft without having to actually do anything on his part. It's just like, "Haha, you're trying to camp me? Well you're only making my kill options even easier, here." and there's no real risk to Wario getting camped for a bit unless he's behind by a huge margin.

Your idea kinda puts wario in a limited situation, because it's like, as long as Wario only has to hit you with a command grab to get waft, then it encourages too much campy and runaway play from the opponent. Needless to say, there's nothing wrong with camping, but I think it would ultimately limit waft in a very negative way. It also doesn't help Wario if he actually kills his opponent without waft, because what is he going to charge it with if there's nothing for him to bite as his opponent is flying to their death? Every charge and RNG character at least has the benefit of being able to charge or rotate their moves between the opponents stocks. Lucas can charge his smash attacks between stocks, GnW can farm for 9, Luigi can farm for misfire, etc. Peach seems to be the only RNG based character in this game who can't easily farm for Saturns or Stitch faces.

But yeah, that's why I think he would also need a manual charge of his own for your idea to actually work. Biting to get waft isn't bad, but it would need something to go with it in order to make it more of a viable option than what you described, because I don't think the move needs to be bad or useless. I just think its design is iffy right now, and that getting waft should be a reward, not something that is mandatory for the character.

Just my 2 cents
 

Life

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Lets be real, if a new PM character had a jump cancelable shine and land cancelled projectiles people would think its kinda jank
:wolf:

Also you guys are overlooking Wario's relative-to-Puff surprisingly mediocre recovery (just don't fail at the PM drinking game) and inferior combo properties, and his relative-to-DK lack of reach. He's better than either of those characters overall, but calling them "strictly" worse triggers my "I like a pedant. Exactly one. Me" senses.

Also, Shoulder Bash is like minus fortysomething on shield. Start punishing that.
 

Vaporeohn

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There is never a reason to not punish shoulder bash on shield. It's frustrating to see so many people allow it.
 

Keman

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Tink also happens to be really polarizing in his MU spread, so while he doesn't do that well against some of the very best characters in the game, he dominates against many characters below, above and around his level, as well as having incredible MUs versus all of the lower tiers.
I'm glad people are finally realizing that DDD's good MUs with the top 10 characters except for diddy and lucario don't make him a good character when he loses to basically everyone else.
Sounds to me like if someone dual main'd Tink and DDD, They could have almost all of the MU's Covered with a good spread in those MU's no?
 

PlateProp

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mfw squirtle isint even top tier in jank

Mfw cant punish wario side b without controller destroying shield di cuz it pushes me across the stage

Guys pls
 

nimigoha

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mfw squirtle isint even top tier in jank

Mfw cant punish wario side b without controller destroying shield di cuz it pushes me across the stage

Guys pls
Haha actually just testing Wario's max distance GOOOO on Squirtle's Shield, your Shield DI doesn't make much of a difference.

However as Squirtle you can buffer a roll towards him as soon as your shield gets hit by GOOOO and turn around and grab him before he can even spot dodge. You have to be quick with the grab though.

And you can still WDOOS to dash grab with a pretty big amount of leniency.
 
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Beorn

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:wolf:

Also you guys are overlooking Wario's relative-to-Puff surprisingly mediocre recovery (just don't fail at the PM drinking game) and inferior combo properties, and his relative-to-DK lack of reach. He's better than either of those characters overall, but calling them "strictly" worse triggers my "I like a pedant. Exactly one. Me" senses.

Also, Shoulder Bash is like minus fortysomething on shield. Start punishing that.
Notice I have said almost nothing past mentioning shoulder bash. I should also say that I play Mr.Pickle as my main smash training partner. I know quite a lot about wario counter play. He is just really ****ing good. Play Link and then tell me wario has an easily gimp-able recovery. It is gimp-able, but it is not ever close to mediocre. Not a good Wario. Trying to edge guard this character can and does have the tables turn on you fast, and he won't need to hit you more than once or twice with his plethora of overlapping edgegaurd tools. By the time he's at a high enough damage to get him off stage, puff will probably have died from the hit wario took to be put off stage.

Wario doesn't need range. He can alter his micro spacing better than any character in the entire game. His nair is safe on cross up for much of the cast. His bair is completely safe on shield because it was changed to auto cancel while having a ton of shield stun. His Dair is a guessing game as to which way he will fade. His Fair can hit your shield and fade back before you can do anything for much of the cast, and ends far before he lands. His side-B is the least of his jank.

Saying he's better overall is a severe under statement.
 
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PlateProp

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Haha actually just testing Wario's max distance GOOOO on Squirtle's Shield, your Shield DI doesn't make much of a difference.

However as Squirtle you can buffer a roll towards him as soon as your shield gets hit by GOOOO and turn around and grab him before he can even spot dodge. You have to be quick with the grab though.

And you can still WDOOS to dash grab with a pretty big amount of leniency.
You dont need to do either, you can just shield di in + hold stick + let go of shield and walk forward the first available frame because momentum in neutral states is dumb
 

nimigoha

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You dont need to do either, you can just shield di in + hold stick + let go of shield and walk forward the first available frame because momentum in neutral states is dumb
I tried that and can't get anything off it, even with multiple shield SDI inputs.

I mean you can also just jump out and Withdraw. Squirtle has multiple ways to punish it.
 

JesteRace

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Some things I'd like to see for Link.

-Fix his freaking grab
-Fix his freaking up smash
-UpB staling after one use on-stage and making bomb jump not work is dumb (yet another thing Toon Link gets to keep)
-Fix the active frames on nair
-Make the rang hitbox not go above people's heads
-Either buff the range back to 3.5 status (seriously, what was wrong with 3.5 rang?) or buff the power/convertability of it. Something so it's not worse than Tink's in every way
-Buff the speed and distance of bombs. Again, Tink should not have better projectiles than Link. That's dumb.

Those are the big things. A few tiny things here and there could help too. But Link's moves need to work, first and foremost.
 

Beorn

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So you have Wario Exp, why not enlighten us on the counterplay instead or just what is so "bonkers" with the moves?



Spacies don't count lol.
Do you play Link? Counterplay with one character is not counter play with another. For instance, I can just tether grab his side-b for free. Not that any of links throws combo wario past 20%.

JesteRace JesteRace I think that the PMDT has got this, this time around. I feel confident @Shadic won't let Link continue being bad for 4.0.
 
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Xykness

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mfw squirtle isint even top tier in jank

Mfw cant punish wario side b without controller destroying shield di cuz it pushes me across the stage

Guys pls
I just wavedash to shoryu. Warios stop shoulder bashing real fast.
Its definitely punishable on shield by a lot of the cast.
 
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SunnieHD

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What if Ivy's up smash was like Lucas's in brawl?
Top tier??
 
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