Tier List Speculation

[frankxthexbunny]

this guy named @PMS | steelguttey posts this gore image that he calls tier list,

Despite the seriously hardy laugh, I'll admit I'd have preferred the wall of text. The fact that you decided not to argue because most these people are hiveminded and dumb and the like is pretty counter-productive. Arguing your points with people who seriously disagree with you is like way more useful than people who already agree with you. I agree with your thesis, but unfortunately it is absolutely useless to me because theres no support to it. I mean sure giving rational support on smashboards seems a fools errand, and sometimes it is, but by being a rational human being one should feel some sort of obligation to support their arguments for the same reason a doctor shouldn't quietly enjoy his meal while the other guy in the restaurant has a heart attack across the room.

 

[Gnarkill Evan]

Why is Jiggly So High?

 

[Draco_The]

Why is Jiggly So High?

She's the Balloon Pokémon.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Why is Jiggly So High?

probably due to both hbox's performance, the ability to handle a lot of characters she has absolutely no right handeling, and the fact that jigglypuff does one thing very well and there are a decent number of characters that have a hard time dealing with that thing.

i dunno I think Jiggs is not great in this game, but I think jiggs mains will ALWAYS get wins no matter how bad the meta is for her.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Why is Jiggly So High?

I really want to say her match spread probably is not so bad. She can flow chart into a rest on the heavies and out maneuver the swords and i think projectiles are just too hard to land.

Maybe i am mistaken but i think bair, air mobility and rest are really good tools. But not everyone plays at hungry boxes level but soul pech is one of the best i played against and it was pretty rough but some was on match up inexperience.

With that said, i think flames, pikmin, patiences, weird projectiles, and strong up smashes (smashes in general) are her bain and well... alot of the cast has that also. So... eh i dont know i feel like she has a chance against most characters

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I really want to say her match spread probably is not so bad. She can flow chart into a rest on the heavies and out maneuver the swords and i think projectiles are just too hard to land.

Maybe i am mistaken but i think bair, air mobility and rest are really good tools. But not everyone plays at hungry boxes level but soul pech is one of the best i played against and it was pretty rough but some was on match up inexperience.

With that said, i think flames, pikmin, patiences, weird projectiles, and strong up smashes (smashes in general) are her bain and well... alot of the cast has that also. So... eh i dont know i feel like she has a chance against most characters

I'd suggest maybe you mean fast fallers not heavies but your point stands. Then again I dont know much about jigglypuff so maybe you DO mean heavies.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'd suggest maybe you mean fast fallers not heavies but your point stands. Then again I dont know much about jigglypuff so maybe you DO mean heavies.

I mean heavies, i mean fast fallers you can up throw rest BUT with fat heavies you can jank your way into a rest hit box.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I mean heavies, i mean fast fallers you can up throw rest BUT with fat heavies you can jank your way into a rest hit box.

i mean I guess. A lot of heavies that doesn't really work for, but fatties sure.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

i mean I guess. A lot of heavies that doesn't really work for, but fatties sure.

I think at low percent its the same concept as up throw rest only its a weak hit box that does not push them far away but leaves them in hit stun into a rest basically...granted i dont main jigs, im just repeating what mains tell me all the time

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I think at low percent its the same concept as up throw rest only its a weak hit box that does not push them far away but leaves them in hit stun into a rest basically...granted i dont main jigs, im just repeating what mains tell me all the time

I'm not so sure I know anything about that. For example Fox is light but his fast faller gets him punished, and Samus is heavy (but notably floaty) and resting samus is next to impossible. Character size makes it easy to rest, weight actually makes it take longer to jump after a throw exacerbating throwstun advantage, generally from what I see heavy characters by and large don't have an harder time avoiding rests than other characters, it seems size and fall speed matters far more

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'm not so sure I know anything about that. For example Fox is light but his fast faller gets him punished, and Samus is heavy (but notably floaty) and resting samus is next to impossible. Character size makes it easy to rest, weight actually makes it take longer to jump after a throw exacerbating throwstun advantage, generally from what I see heavy characters by and large don't have an harder time avoiding rests than other characters, it seems size and fall speed matters far more

I apologize, i did not explain this correctly. I mean like a sour spot arieal into a rest.

How do we all feel about yoshi? I feel like he may have been better in melee actually.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I'm pretty sure tasteless gentleman means fatties, like Bowser DK etc are easy to rest, which is definitely true.

Edit: I think Yoshi is horrible, he has DJ and Armor, but bad recovery, bad grab, generally bad stuff. That said I no very little about Yoshi and he sounds pretty good in paper, but seems to suck on every side of a setup.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I apologize, i did not explain this correctly. I mean like a sour spot arieal into a rest.

How do we all feel about yoshi? I feel like he may have been better in melee actually.

do you mean better overall or just better in the meta? I thought Yoshi was good but I don't really have any data to back that up

 

[Soft Serve]

upthrow rest is only a thing on spacies. however, falling upair/upair platform tech traps>rest, and uptilt>rest all are legit and tae stocks on nearly everyone in the cast very very early.


Yoshi is really good, no really good representation and half his playerbase is convinced that losing grab parries and catching people out of the air on pivot grab makes him lose every MU now.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

upthrow rest is only a thing on spacies. however, falling upair/upair platform tech traps>rest, and uptilt>rest all are legit and tae stocks on nearly everyone in the cast very very early.


Yoshi is really good, no really good representation and half his playerbase is convinced that losing grab parries and catching people out of the air on pivot grab makes him lose every MU now.

I don't think anything in the universe makes people i play with more mad than when i up tilt rest.

EDIT: I just checked weight for funsies and learned that Yoshi is heavier than Charizard. Weird.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I play a lot of puff in friendlies and I believe she can win pretty much any matchup with some clever rests, however there are a few (Tink I'm looking at you) that feel ridiculously unwinnable.

 

[Narelex]

Friend of mine picked up Puff and I can say the MU feels quite annoying. MK tends to do well against opponents who are above him in the air or are on the ground.

Puff just kind of sits in that awkward area for MK Dtilt/grabs won't reach, Nair gets beaten by Bair's. not to mention it's not too hard to setup into rest on him. Interesting MU, i'll be keeping my eye on it. I feel like we just have a severe lack of good Puff players.

She has an odd barrier to entry due to her fragility and unique playstyle but a properly played one is quite frustrating to deal with. She does still get hard countered by a few characters ala Mewtwo. But I think she's a pretty decent character.

 

[GrandpaDukes]

My opinion on DK is slowly changing.

Same. I think he's the best in the game. Better than Sox

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yoshi's fair will never cease to amaze me. It and dtilt are for more important than grabbing out of the air with pivot and grab parries.

 

[Spralwers]

Puff's aerial mobility and his strong, disjointed, quick, aerial hitboxes have to be effective and relevant in a non trivial amount of MUs. I understand if this wasn't enough in 3.02 where quite a few characters were powerful enough to keep up (and maybe be advantageous?) vs Fox. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes even with or soft/hard counters random characters in this patch. Lucario is another character that seems to have a tough time vs him.

Also Narelex I've recently become a believer in MK, I was just unaware of IDC at the time. I still think he has "weaknesses" but it's really more things that separate a broken character from a really good character. I do think IDC allows him to bypass one of his "weaknesses" of needing to sacrifice his range and jump into someone's threat zone (via grab, and non tipper dtilt) to break someone's neutral and effectively convert. Similar start up as Marth/Roy fsmash (so you can't exactly react to it), similar kill power to the knee, longer reach than Ganon ftilt, and can be done literally any time during MK's amazing DD if you use pivots. I'll need to revise my thoughts on the Marth-Metaknight MU a little bit. I have played decent Metaknights including Jelly and didn't have any reason to believe MK beats Marth, but the risk of getting sniped out of my DD at the slightest mistake or a read in my movement is pretty scary, and the counterplay (preemptively: shielding, throwing out a hitbox, or roll/spotdodge, at least that's all I can think of atm) are not too safe to do in neutral vs MK. Esp cuz if you miss, MK could just use IDC to punish endlag :x It has atrocious end lag but the start up, range, and sheer power more than make up for it I think, esp vs non projectile characters.

To me, an S tier is someone who you can read like a book but still get paper cuts.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

To me, an S tier is someone who you can read like a book but still get paper cuts.

You think of that? pretty good.

 

[mimgrim]

Same. I think he's the best in the game. Better than Sox

STOP DOING THIS TOO ME GODDAMMIT.

Now your making me wonder if I should even take that essay you wrote about DK seriously with the combination of this post and last post you made on this thread. >_<

At least in my messing around with DK things have been kinda promising.

I'm actually kinda starting to think like mid or low mid right now.

 

[KakuCP9]

Out of curiosity, is there any reason for large weight gap between Jiggly and Kirby? I get her being fragile, but having a large gap in comparison to the second lightest in the game is kinda weird.

 

[FreeGamer]

She's way more floaty and aerodynamic, so it would only make sense for her body to be comprised of a lighter material with less wind resistance.

 

[Player -0]

I'm still hoping that Kirby's max aerial drift is increased. Makes sense in my opinion.

 

[KakuCP9]

Naaah brah. Don't gimme that IRL logic for a Nintendo game. Seriously though, the difference in weight is like the difference between Mario and DK.

 

[Player -0]

Shhhhh

Don't question the Melee

 

[Soupchicken]

Mario's fireballs are the most infuriating projectile in the game.

I know they were nerfed to have more landing lag in 3.5 and do a whole 1% less damage but I still feel like they're too good. Maybe I'm missing something but trading, spot dodging, rolling, or wave dashing oos only put me in a worse position when the next pill appears. Sure a well timed jab trade into <insert move here> can punish an approach but the way they bounce makes it hard to even hit, especially if they shoot it from a platform. Trading with a pill with any move with more ending lag then a jab leads to getting hit by the next pill or being grabbed/hit by an approaching Mario immediately after. Shielding means Mario gets a free approach; spot-dodging is similar. wave dashing out (has to be away) means giving up positioning. Rolling is punishable or again forces you to give up stage position. Spamming pills in neutral should not be as effective as it is. I might even go as far as to call it "janky".

You know what, Mario is just an infuriating character overall. His crouch cancel everything into down smash makes me so mad. It comes out so fast, has solid range and hits both sides of him. Good luck spacing aerials safely unless you've got a shine to bail you out. Is there a better crouch-cancel option the game? Plus, his weight means he's crouch canceling attacks at stupidly high percentages. On top of that he's short enough that he ducks under a lot of moves which makes it even safer for a Mario to abuse.

And what about the cape nullifying every projectile with an animation that doesn't match how long it's out? I can't tell you how many times I've tried to thread the needle with a charge shot after baiting the first cape only to have it reflected by his shoulder on the first few frames of cape #2. Hell the cape is just annoying in general. Getting your up-b caped is so frustrating. Worse still is its ability to turn you around through a shield; why is this a thing? Screw the cape.

On top of that a dash attack that beats crouch canceling at any percent in addition to being a potent combo starter. A kill and a combo throw. A generally great combo game and assortment of high-priority/combo-sustaining aerials (that back air though). Good weight and recovery. An up-b that has caused me more stage-spike deaths than I care to admit in addition to being really difficult to punish. Great vertical and horizontal kill options. Low technical barrier. AGHHHH.

Yeah I'm salty. Probably because I'm a Samus main and this plumber nullifies so much of what makes her good/fun.

Am I the only one who hates this character?

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Mario's fireballs are the most infuriating projectile in the game.

I know they were nerfed to have more landing lag in 3.5 and do a whole 1% less damage but I still feel like they're too good. Maybe I'm missing something but trading, spot dodging, rolling, or wave dashing oos only put me in a worse position when the next pill appears. Sure a well timed jab trade into <insert move here> can punish an approach but the way they bounce makes it hard to even hit, especially if they shoot it from a platform. Trading with a pill with any move with more ending lag then a jab leads to getting hit by the next pill or being grabbed/hit by an approaching Mario immediately after. Shielding means Mario gets a free approach; spot-dodging is similar. wave dashing out (has to be away) means giving up positioning. Rolling is punishable or again forces you to give up stage position. Spamming pills in neutral should not be as effective as it is. I might even go as far as to call it "janky".

You know what, Mario is just an infuriating character overall. His crouch cancel everything into down smash makes me so mad. It comes out so fast, has solid range and hits both sides of him. Good luck spacing aerials safely unless you've got a shine to bail you out. Is there a better crouch-cancel option the game? Plus, his weight means he's crouch canceling attacks at stupidly high percentages. On top of that he's short enough that he ducks under a lot of moves which makes it even safer for a Mario to abuse.

And what about the cape nullifying every projectile with an animation that doesn't match how long it's out? I can't tell you how many times I've tried to thread the needle with a charge shot after baiting the first cape only to have it reflected by his shoulder on the first few frames of cape #2. Hell the cape is just annoying in general. Getting your up-b caped is so frustrating. Worse still is its ability to turn you around through a shield; why is this a thing? Screw the cape.

On top of that a dash attack that beats crouch canceling at any percent in addition to being a potent combo starter. A kill and a combo throw. A generally great combo game and assortment of high-priority/combo-sustaining aerials (that back air though). Good weight and recovery. An up-b that has caused me more stage-spike deaths than I care to admit in addition to being really difficult to punish. Great vertical and horizontal kill options. Low technical barrier. AGHHHH.

Yeah I'm salty. Probably because I'm a Samus main and this plumber nullifies so much of what makes her good/fun.

Am I the only one who hates this character?

Have you tried power shielding?

 

[Soupchicken]

Have you tried power shielding?

I'm starting to try, but it's not the most reliable response; at least not yet. I'm more efficient at working around them than my post would suggest - my main point is that they're a pain to deal with. I don't think Mario is OP, just annoying.

 

[Saproling]

His crouch cancel everything into down smash makes me so mad

Ironic coming from a Samus.

 

[Player -0]

Abuse crawl. You can bait cape and then crawl under the reflected missile. Crawl under fireballs. etc.

then abuse the crazy CC for lol

 

[Life]

Hello! Would you like to have a conversation about Samus' zair today?

 

[SPoitter]

Mario's fireballs are the most infuriating projectile in the game.

I know they were nerfed to have more landing lag in 3.5 and do a whole 1% less damage but I still feel like they're too good. Maybe I'm missing something but trading, spot dodging, rolling, or wave dashing oos only put me in a worse position when the next pill appears. Sure a well timed jab trade into <insert move here> can punish an approach but the way they bounce makes it hard to even hit, especially if they shoot it from a platform. Trading with a pill with any move with more ending lag then a jab leads to getting hit by the next pill or being grabbed/hit by an approaching Mario immediately after. Shielding means Mario gets a free approach; spot-dodging is similar. wave dashing out (has to be away) means giving up positioning. Rolling is punishable or again forces you to give up stage position. Spamming pills in neutral should not be as effective as it is. I might even go as far as to call it "janky".

You know what, Mario is just an infuriating character overall. His crouch cancel everything into down smash makes me so mad. It comes out so fast, has solid range and hits both sides of him. Good luck spacing aerials safely unless you've got a shine to bail you out. Is there a better crouch-cancel option the game? Plus, his weight means he's crouch canceling attacks at stupidly high percentages. On top of that he's short enough that he ducks under a lot of moves which makes it even safer for a Mario to abuse.

And what about the cape nullifying every projectile with an animation that doesn't match how long it's out? I can't tell you how many times I've tried to thread the needle with a charge shot after baiting the first cape only to have it reflected by his shoulder on the first few frames of cape #2. Hell the cape is just annoying in general. Getting your up-b caped is so frustrating. Worse still is its ability to turn you around through a shield; why is this a thing? Screw the cape.

On top of that a dash attack that beats crouch canceling at any percent in addition to being a potent combo starter. A kill and a combo throw. A generally great combo game and assortment of high-priority/combo-sustaining aerials (that back air though). Good weight and recovery. An up-b that has caused me more stage-spike deaths than I care to admit in addition to being really difficult to punish. Great vertical and horizontal kill options. Low technical barrier. AGHHHH.

Yeah I'm salty. Probably because I'm a Samus main and this plumber nullifies so much of what makes her good/fun.

Am I the only one who hates this character?

the most infuriating projectile is Kirby's Final Cutter :^)
mario isn't very annoying to fight imo, he has a very linear movement pattern even if the player who uses him tries to go for variety it's easy to intercept.

 

[FreeGamer]

There's a very simple solution to your problem:

1. Pick G&W
2. Hold down-B when he spams Fireball/Pill
3. Blow your load all over him
4. ???
5. Profit

 

[xLithiumx]

Spam missiles and that roll thing Samus does. I think Samus can out-range Mario, or maybe try to aim a missile below the pill?

 

[GrandpaDukes]

I'm actually kinda starting to think like mid or low mid right now.

Yeah I agree. Right above Fox

 

[Kipcom]

Yoshi is really good

Eh, not really.
While I thought previous versions of Yoshi had dumb/silly stuff, I don't think I could say he's anything above average, and that's being generous. He's a really slow character with a not-so-good neutral.

He's got some things that are really good though:

- Dtilt (I think the whole tail being a hurtbox is weird, but at the same time I don't want to deal with a damn disjointed tail that essentially acts like a shine spike in some regards)
- Double Jump Land. It's especially good out of shield and anyone who actually still mains yoshi has no reason to do this. Down Smash, Fsmash, up tilt, and Down B out of shield are all amazing.
- DJC uair strings and he's also got an overall good combo game.

While I did think prior to 3.6 that Yoshi's grab needed a nerf, I still think he could have a couple of frames at the max range of his grabs that allow him to grab an aerial opponent (with a smaller grab bubble than the one at the start of the animation). It needs something other than what it has now. Given how slow the startup on 2/3 of his grabs are, it makes no sense that he can't even use them to punish a bad aerial approach. Even if you want to compare it to Link and Toon Link by saying that they can't grab people in the air except for the earlier half of their animation, that still kinda doesn't mean much considering they also still have good enough projectiles to help them in neutral and vs bad approaches (especially Toon Link, who not only has good projectiles, but he's really fast to boot).

Bad baiting and bad neutral + bad zoning with his projectile unless he's either on the ledge or his opponent is offstage (and most characters can still avoid them easily anyway).


I can see the direction they were going with PM 3.6 Yoshi. They obviously wanted him to be more like Melee Yoshi, but he really got no compensation for his nerfs whatsoever lmao. Not to mention he got nothing but nerfed. Not redesigned or anything like that, just nerfed. I feel like people want to believe Yoshi is godlike because hardly anyone plays him and they think he has some potential to be a top character, but as someone who's been fighting a consistent Yoshi main since 3.0, the character's just bad lol.


And no, Yoshi not being footstool-able during his double jump is not what I'd consider to be a big or major buff because Yoshi mains never had any business recovering that low in the first place.

 

[420IkeGodxx]

Yoshi sux lol

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Mario's fireballs are the most infuriating projectile in the game.

I know they were nerfed to have more landing lag in 3.5 and do a whole 1% less damage but I still feel like they're too good. Maybe I'm missing something but trading, spot dodging, rolling, or wave dashing oos only put me in a worse position when the next pill appears. Sure a well timed jab trade into <insert move here> can punish an approach but the way they bounce makes it hard to even hit, especially if they shoot it from a platform. Trading with a pill with any move with more ending lag then a jab leads to getting hit by the next pill or being grabbed/hit by an approaching Mario immediately after. Shielding means Mario gets a free approach; spot-dodging is similar. wave dashing out (has to be away) means giving up positioning. Rolling is punishable or again forces you to give up stage position. Spamming pills in neutral should not be as effective as it is. I might even go as far as to call it "janky".

You know what, Mario is just an infuriating character overall. His crouch cancel everything into down smash makes me so mad. It comes out so fast, has solid range and hits both sides of him. Good luck spacing aerials safely unless you've got a shine to bail you out. Is there a better crouch-cancel option the game? Plus, his weight means he's crouch canceling attacks at stupidly high percentages. On top of that he's short enough that he ducks under a lot of moves which makes it even safer for a Mario to abuse.

And what about the cape nullifying every projectile with an animation that doesn't match how long it's out? I can't tell you how many times I've tried to thread the needle with a charge shot after baiting the first cape only to have it reflected by his shoulder on the first few frames of cape #2. Hell the cape is just annoying in general. Getting your up-b caped is so frustrating. Worse still is its ability to turn you around through a shield; why is this a thing? Screw the cape.

On top of that a dash attack that beats crouch canceling at any percent in addition to being a potent combo starter. A kill and a combo throw. A generally great combo game and assortment of high-priority/combo-sustaining aerials (that back air though). Good weight and recovery. An up-b that has caused me more stage-spike deaths than I care to admit in addition to being really difficult to punish. Great vertical and horizontal kill options. Low technical barrier. AGHHHH.

Yeah I'm salty. Probably because I'm a Samus main and this plumber nullifies so much of what makes her good/fun.

Am I the only one who hates this character?

I actually would like the hit box to match the animation.... its dumb like game and watches whole move set