Tier List Speculation

[frankxthexbunny]

So in terms of pure knockback units, Mario's fair is stronger than the Knee, Fox upsmash, and Marth's Fsmash.

sure but angle is everything. obviously.

 

[Boiko]

So in terms of pure knockback units, Mario's fair is stronger than the Knee, Fox upsmash, and Marth's Fsmash.

Yes, and for the most part, it will remain stronger than them throughout relevant kill percents.

However, something important to consider is the angle as well, I'm working on adding that all in.
For example, Falcon's Knee hits at a 32 degree angle, whereas Mario's fair hits at a 60 degree angle. Both are good, But Mario's fair would typically be better at killing off of the top than the knee and knee would be better at killing low/off the side.

 

[Strong Badam]

Weird that you included Wario's Uair and SideB but not Waft, @ Boiko .

 

[Boiko]

Weird that you included Wario's Uair and SideB but not Waft, @ Boiko .

I was trying to avoid moves like waft, solar beam, judgement hammer, etc., because I feel that they're very conditional. I'll probably throw them in later just for the sake of comparison.

In fact I'll probably get bored at work and do like..every strong move and add angles. <___<

 

[Manaconda]

A few of the moves in your list aren't "typical KO moves" that those characters can set up into.

Bowser's Fsmash, Ganon's Usmash, Peach's Usmash and Falcon's Fsmash aren't moves that are easy to land or have easy setups. Not sure how easily Lucario can set up an Fsmash either. It's also weird that you chose Peach's Nair instead of her Fair, which is stronger and easier to land in neutral. Nevermind that last part, but Fair kills a bit better than Nair.

 

[Boiko]

A few of the moves in your list aren't "typical KO moves" that those characters can set up into.

Bowser's Fsmash, Ganon's Usmash, Peach's Usmash and Falcon's Fsmash aren't moves that are easy to land or have easy setups. Not sure how easily Lucario can set up an Fsmash either. It's also weird that you chose Peach's Nair instead of her Fair, which is stronger and easier to land in neutral. Nevermind that last part, but Fair kills a bit better than Nair.

Bowser's Fsmash was mostly for comparison.
Peach can land down throw>dacus on a decent portion of the cast, barring proper DI, and her nair has higher KBG and at this point is stronger than her fair.
Ganon can down throw>up smash on a chunk of the cast.
Lucario does weird aura stuff with fsmash, honestly, it's a bit beyond me.
Falcon can stomp>f smash at lower percentages:
https://youtu.be/iQUe1BkQxdY?t=2m17s

Melee, but you get it.

 

[Jonyc128]

Bowser's Fsmash was mostly for comparison.
Peach can land down throw>dacus on a decent portion of the cast, barring proper DI, and her nair has higher KBG and at this point is stronger than her fair.
Ganon can down throw>up smash on a chunk of the cast.
Lucario does weird aura stuff with fsmash, honestly, it's a bit beyond me.
Falcon can stomp>f smash at lower percentages:
https://youtu.be/iQUe1BkQxdY?t=2m17s

Melee, but you get it.

If that's the case, you might as well add Mario's fsmash since it can be comboed into from dtilt, dthrow with DI away, and from the meteor hit of fair

sure but angle is everything. obviously.

And yea I forgot to mention the differing angles

 

[Manaconda]

When you say "barring improper DI", do you mean "considering improper DI"? Because two of those setups you mentioned require improper DI. Like, Stomp --> Fsmash might as well be Stomp --> Falcon Punch. I've never heard of a guaranteed setup to Fsmash, those are mostly swag kills/stuff you do to tilt your opponent.

Edit: Peach Bomber can also kill out of a techchase.

 

[Boiko]

Barring proper DI, as in, if they don't DI correctly, they'll get hit.

Okay, guys, I get it. Give me a few hours and I'll get a more comprehensive list out to you.

 

[CORY]

We need every move in the game. When will Mario's fireball kill? Or ike's jab3?

APPEASE ME!

 

[Soft Serve]

You can definetly get stomp fsmash regardless of di, as long as there are no platforms for them to land on. You just react to their di and do a pivot fsmash, it's easy.


Probably the saddest thing in that list to me is that peach's nair has better knockback than diddy's fair. @ Boiko if/when you get around to it, I'd be interested in upair/fair comparisons for diddy. I know upair has the lower angle but I don't know the kb values for it. Might as well do diddy dsmash on there too, because he has setups for it and lands them far easier than fsmash.

 

[Boiko]

You can definetly get stomp fsmash regardless of di, as long as there are no platforms for them to land on. You just react to their di and do a pivot fsmash, it's easy.


Probably the saddest thing in that list to me is that peach's nair has better knockback than diddy's fair. @ Boiko if/when you get around to it, I'd be interested in upair/fair comparisons for diddy. I know upair has the lower angle but I don't know the kb values for it. Might as well do diddy dsmash on there too, because he has setups for it and lands them far easier than fsmash.

Just cause I like you:
Diddy Kong Fair:
Damage: 15
BKB: 10
KBG: 100
KB: 164.85
Angle: 361

Diddy Kong Uair:
Damage: 12
BKB: 20
KBG: 90
KB: 134.984
Angle: 361

 

[DrinkingFood]

dafuq is KBU
looks like those would be the KB values at 100, but...?

 

[Boiko]

dafuq is KBU
looks like those would be the KB values at 100, but...?

Literally just the knockback.

Edit: Like, how would you value the number? Just call it knockback?

 

[Life]

I assume KBU is the distance they go before factoring in stuff like weight and fall speed? Or is it specifically on Mario's weight?

 

[Boiko]

I assume KBU is the distance they go before factoring in stuff like weight and fall speed? Or is it specifically on Mario's weight?

Specifically Mario's weight.

 

[Nausicaa]

You can definetly get stomp fsmash regardless of di, as long as there are no platforms for them to land on. You just react to their di and do a pivot fsmash, it's easy.


Probably the saddest thing in that list to me is that peach's nair has better knockback than diddy's fair. @ Boiko if/when you get around to it, I'd be interested in upair/fair comparisons for diddy. I know upair has the lower angle but I don't know the kb values for it. Might as well do diddy dsmash on there too, because he has setups for it and lands them far easier than fsmash.

Peach's N-Air hits harder and faster than like everything.
Of course it hits harder than Diddy-as-a-whole.
lol

If that's the case, you might as well add Mario's fsmash since it can be comboed into from dtilt, dthrow with DI away, and from the meteor hit of fair

And yea I forgot to mention the differing angles

Get most of my Mario F-Smash kills off pivots from U-Throw on spacies.
You can get quick kills at lower % with quick surprise pivot D-Smashes off D-Throws too.
Getting rocked by someone doing epic cool **** with a character can make people want to play the character.
There's a reason someone named Scorp existed.
If you know what I meeeeeaaan.



Also U-Air > F-Smash is pretty common too. Weak hit of U-Air is ez pz

 

[DrinkingFood]

Literally just the knockback.

Edit: Like, how would you value the number? Just call it knockback?

It's just knockback
I was just wondering why you gave a specific number for it when it's different at every percent...? just a benchmark?

 

[Boiko]

It's just knockback
I was just wondering why you gave a specific number for it when it's different at every percent...? just a benchmark?

Yes, just a benchmark.

 

[Jonyc128]

Peach's N-Air hits harder and faster than like everything.
Of course it hits harder than Diddy-as-a-whole.
lol



Get most of my Mario F-Smash kills off pivots from U-Throw on spacies.
You can get quick kills at lower % with quick surprise pivot D-Smashes off D-Throws too.
Getting rocked by someone doing epic cool **** with a character can make people want to play the character.
There's a reason someone named Scorp existed.
If you know what I meeeeeaaan.



Also U-Air > F-Smash is pretty common too. Weak hit of U-Air is ez pz

Yea I was just mentioning a few of the fsmash setups, also still need to incorporate pivots into my repertoire

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

You can definetly get stomp fsmash regardless of di, as long as there are no platforms for them to land on. You just react to their di and do a pivot fsmash, it's easy.


Probably the saddest thing in that list to me is that peach's nair has better knockback than diddy's fair. @ Boiko if/when you get around to it, I'd be interested in upair/fair comparisons for diddy. I know upair has the lower angle but I don't know the kb values for it. Might as well do diddy dsmash on there too, because he has setups for it and lands them far easier than fsmash.

Is that really surprising to you that peach nair hits harder, diddy has literally the weakest kill power of the cast, and makes up for it with a top seven neutral, top ten punish(damage wise), and made balanced with being in one of the worst weight classes for being comboed by a majority of the cast. That being said think every diddy main has a wish for a vertical finisher at relevant percents, but his weakness to some of the heavy floaties is what keeps him balanced so good work pmdt... Now about that fox though.

 

[zaiman12345]

Snake is pretty much at the bottom of high tier when you think about how he can use his tranq and mines really good, also he can
L-Cancel to be really OP. also dem cigarettes dey can be lethal wen used rite

 

[Soft Serve]

Is that really surprising to you that peach nair hits harder, diddy has literally the weakest kill power of the cast, and makes up for it with a top seven neutral, top ten punish(damage wise), and made balanced with being in one of the worst weight classes for being comboed by a majority of the cast. That being said think every diddy main has a wish for a vertical finisher at relevant percents, but his weakness to some of the heavy floaties is what keeps him balanced so good work pmdt... Now about that fox though.

At least strong nair kills puff at 120

 

[Farquaad]

Sooo, Fox.
The problem I have with Fox is how he is amazing at everything. Best defensive options in the game besides maybe Bowser's OOS. Best pressure. Amazing at killing. Amazing camping game. Amazing aggro where he just runs you over with shine nairs and nair shines. Amazing ability to stuff approaches, A really good recovery that can be angled or shortened and has tons of distance and so little lag that it often requires a read to punish.

Honestly Fox just needs one or two of these areas severely nerfed, here are my opinions on which ones should be nerfed.
Amazing

Who here likes really campy fox? Yeah no one, who likes hype fox shield pressure and raw speed? Exactly, let's make Fox into a hyper aggressive pressure based character, nerf lasers and the priority on things like Bair, Utilt and the like that makes him impossible to approach.

Then make his shine cc able so that his game requires some mixups instead of just auto piloting while stoned and drunk and nair shining until uspsmash percent.

Okay I voiced my opinion, what do you all think of it?

People will always complain because the nerfs don't make his options bad, they make them less good. With all his less good options, he's still a really phenomenal character.

Honestly, it would make sense to just give him a bad option. For example, give him Squirtle's tech rolls. And give Squirtle Fox's tech rolls. Matter of fact, scrap the whole Squirtle tech rolls idea period, there's no reason for a character to have such predictable and slow tech rolls, Fox's tech rolls are fine. Just give Squirtle the tech rolls that Fox has.

That's how you fix Fox

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

give luigi a hover I mean his jump is basically one already why not go the full nine yards

 

[Apollo Ali]

sorry to be one of THOSE guys, but why are we complaining about fox again? he was nerfed and are we SURE he is really dominating the metagame to extent that he needs to be nerfed AGAIN? after 3.6 dropped, i think we all agreed there were some unnecessary nerfs to mid-tiers and ALSO that fox needed some nerfs. but if we all get so pissed when our characters have options taken away that define their gameplay, why would we do continue to do the same to fox?

not that i dont think he's really good, or kinda silly, but as a top tier, he really doesn't grind my gears like other top tiers in other games do. the way he's designed he has to be good and to make him weak would be to make him into a wet noodle. compared to top tiers in some other games, he's really not overbearing tbh.

the more interesting conversation is how to make the low tiers good without reverting back to 3.02 silliness

 

[DrinkingFood]

sorry to be one of THOSE guys, but why are we complaining about fox again? he was nerfed and are we SURE he is really dominating the metagame to extent that he needs to be nerfed AGAIN? after 3.6 dropped, i think we all agreed there were some unnecessary nerfs to mid-tiers and ALSO that fox needed some nerfs. but if we all get so pissed when our characters have options taken away that define their gameplay, why would we do continue to do the same to fox?

not that i dont think he's really good, or kinda silly, but as a top tier, he really doesn't grind my gears like other top tiers in other games do. the way he's designed he has to be good and to make him weak would be to make him into a wet noodle. compared to top tiers in some other games, he's really not overbearing tbh.

the more interesting conversation is how to make the low tiers good without reverting back to 3.02 silliness

Nobody is suggesting to make him weak, that is an irrelevant statement
Also fox hasn't really had any options taken away from him, so to "continue to do that for fox" doesn't make any sense when it hasn't started

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

None of the nerfs to Fox have addressed anything problematic at all.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Nobody is suggesting to make him weak, that is an irrelevant statement
Also fox hasn't really had any options taken away from him, so to "continue to do that for fox" doesn't make any sense when it hasn't started

imprecise language aside, my overall point is that he's not that overbearing in the metagame. he bodies some characters pretty handily but what was the last major he has won anyway?

also, no melee characters have had options taken away from them except sheik's chain grabs (which made sense) and im tbh pretty sick of this game alienating players by taking options (and often the fun of the game) away. project m players are way picky. it's unbelievable how well-balanced the game is for a FG with fourty-some characters but there's still so much unwarranted salt about the melee top tiers, when we should just be focused on evening out what is an already pretty well-balanced cast.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

imprecise language aside, my overall point is that he's not that overbearing in the metagame. he bodies some characters pretty handily but what was the last major he has won anyway?

also, no melee characters have had options taken away from them except sheik's chain grabs (which made sense) and im tbh pretty sick of this game alienating players by taking options (and often the fun of the game) away. project m players are way picky. it's unbelievable how well-balanced the game is for a FG with fourty-some characters but there's still so much unwarranted salt about the melee top tiers, when we should just be focused on evening out what is an already pretty well-balanced cast.

I agree with your thesis but disagree with every thing you specifically said.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

like fox hasn't won any majors but how many foxes have gotten top 5 at majors and how many of them have been different people ie not just one person being good

 

[Apollo Ali]

well, he IS the most played character (or was, last time i checked). and he's good. but that's still not really dominating or even overwhelming in any sense.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

The Current PM 20XX I'm seeing is Fox Marth MK and maybe Falco.

 

[Manaconda]

Results at majors aren't directly used to determine who's the best and who's not. It's not like the PMDT actually just takes the character that won the most recent major and decides from that point to nerf them.

Even if it's disputable, Melee Falcon is considered by many to be more viable than Melee ICs, even though an ICs main has gotten Top 8 at the past 3 EVOs while Falcon hasn't come close. Fox was considered the best in Melee even back when Ken basically took every tournament and Fox mains weren't winning ****. Who's better isn't always who wins.

I mean, at the end of the day I personally don't really care what happens to Fox, whether he gets nerfed or stays the way he is. People, sensible or not, will always complain and say certain aspects of a character are unfair or stupid, but as a character widely considered to have no losing MUs, it's safe to say he's a bit beyond the rest of the cast.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Like I said before, I'm undecided on Fox. I think he is, if not the best, in the top 5. There isn't much doubt in my mind. I also know people seem to exaggerate a lot. That's why I always take the stance of "If he needs to be nerfed, he should be nerfed. His status as a Melee character shouldn't matter at all. So what if Melee players get mad."

What are everyone's thoughts on Zelda? I generally think lower of characters whose mains don't have anything positive to say about them, but I also get this feel that Zelda could be decent. An incredible recovery, bair mixups (sh double bair, sh bair b reverse land canceled nayrus, bair waveland, bair nair), I think a decent response to juggles (telecancel snapping to platforms). Every Zelda main seems to be under the impression she is bottom 10 though, so I don't know what to think. Didn't @Umbreon make a claim awhile back that all Zelda's don't know how to use her in neutral? Maybe you could elaborate?

 

[Life]

The Current PM 20XX I'm seeing is Fox Marth MK and maybe Falco.

*quietly puts on shades*

Also Mewtwo.

I'm curious, though, who people would put above Fox if he's not the best in the game. The only name I've heard tossed around is Wolf--who are the good Wolf players? I know of Chillin and Neon and that's all I can think of offhand.

@ TheGravyTrain Zelda suffers from the single most condemning quality any Smash character can have: being slow. Telecancels help, but they aren't enough given the startup.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

the current Project M 20XX is Fox Falco Shiek Marth Puff Peach Falcon Ice Climbers. The worst characters in the game are Kirby and Pichu.

I really wish we could hard reset everyone's memory of Melee so people's tier lists wouldn't be so bad. Fox won't even be top 5.

 

[Farquaad]

*quietly puts on shades*

Also Mewtwo.

I'm curious, though, who people would put above Fox if he's not the best in the game. The only name I've heard tossed around is Wolf--who are the good Wolf players? I know of Chillin and Neon and that's all I can think of offhand.

@ TheGravyTrain Zelda suffers from the single most condemning quality any Smash character can have: being slow. Telecancels help, but they aren't enough given the startup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qngXUlF45Jo

Not godlike or anything but the tech ceiling is mad high, don't see how he'd be above Fox though

 

[Chevy]

A bit late, but Peach's air-dodge doesn't work quite like Melee, she can't fast fall out of it anymore, meaning she can't reliably escape Fox up-throw up-air.

The other problem with the "Fox problem" is that saying he's either the best or nowhere close to the best doesn't really account for other characters and how they interact with one another. Especially since the matchup chart is 1681 squares deep.

Your wording is technically correct, but I see people say there are 41x41 matchups in the game sometimes, and they need to think about their math.

It's kinda hard to make a character with good neutral and notably bad punishes in PM's engine, just by virtue of what goes into having a good neutral. It'd take a bit of work to achieve that and the result would likely feel pretty terribad to play.

It's not really as simple as how good your neutral is and how good your punish game is. Samus kind of falls into "good neutral, bad punish" because most of her neutral winning tools net her a few percent and some stage position. But then she lands a rare d-tilt on someone and **** hits the fan.

Samus is better than Fox
Has a worse neutral and worse punishes and worse pace controlling and edge guarding and recovery and stock finishing and rock paper scissors game and combo string diversity and efficiency and positioning options and everything.

Why is she better?

Weight.

 

[Life]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qngXUlF45Jo

Not godlike or anything but the tech ceiling is mad high, don't see how he'd be above Fox though

I'll tell you what, that dude can press some buttons hahahaha

This video leaves me wondering if it's easier for Wolf to punish off multishines than it is for Fox and Falco, though. If Fox inserts an extra shine after hitting someone and then wavedashes out of that, how do his options change compared to a typical waveshine? What about Falco? If it turns out Wolf's multishine pressure is easier to get followups from than the other two, that could change things significantly if the metagame goes in a direction where multishine pressure is commonly used and is expected to frequently result in hits.