Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

What are people's current thoughts about rob? @ DrinkingFood @Lunchables . He still feels pretty good but he's such an easy combo weight now. As diddy, almost all of both my shiek and ganon combo weight flow chart options work on him.

You say this like its a bad thing. I think its great that ROBs combo weight is reasonable now, that was the main complaint about the character from most people. He has the offensive capabilities to go with a mediocre combo weight imo.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Can you elaborate more on what you mean? Do you mean punish Ness/Lucas for landing before the projectile comes out?

I think it means you use side b with ness in the air and the animation starts, and before it fires you land on the ground and suddenly ness changes his mind and decides he doesnt want to pk fiya. I didnt know that happens with lucas too

 

[Soft Serve]

You say this like its a bad thing. I think its great that ROBs combo weight is reasonable now, that was the main complaint about the character from most people. He has the offensive capabilities to go with a mediocre combo weight imo.

I'm pretty happy he's easy to combo now. Kinda sad he got the lunging side-b back. Its better than it being straight useless, but damn Its so good. reflects projectiles, hits, and takes stage positioning all at once. Have no idea how the differences between multi hit vs one hit changes how he coverts off it, but getting my entire popgun>agt reflected while he also puts a hitbox out and moves a good distance closer feels awful.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty happy he's easy to combo now. Kinda sad he got the lunging side-b back. Its better than it being straight useless, but damn Its so good. reflects projectiles, hits, and takes stage positioning all at once. Have no idea how the differences between multi hit vs one hit changes how he coverts off it, but getting my entire popgun>agt reflected while he also puts a hitbox out and moves a good distance closer feels awful.

I'm pretty sure you can crouch cancel the side b, along with the hitbox coming out f14 (Reflector is on f6). +5 endlag also means he has a harder time converting off of reflecting a projectile + theres no multihit, so you're often hit away instead of being confirmed into a grab as long as you're not at low %.

It's a good move, but every character needs good moves.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, I haven't played against a ROB yet but preliminary testing of the new SideB left me pretty satisfied. Serves its function without being unreasonable.

 

[steelguttey]

All the people gettoing crazy about my opinion need to get a life. Boo hoo i insulted there favorite video game character. Life is tough. GRow up and stop playing videogames 24/7. Get a job. I have one. @Tomaster is the only logical one. @ steelguttey you think its funny? Putting my saying as your signature? Grow up, get a life, and get a haircut

we literally tried to not talk about your tier lists and youre just being a drama queen. stay free tho "professional smash player"

also thanks for the new sig

anyway tho rob seems fine now, im glad side b was reverted sorta

 

[InfinityCollision]

Can you elaborate more on what you mean? Do you mean punish Ness/Lucas for landing before the projectile comes out?

Yeah. Ness and Lucas cancel into their 12 and 13 frame landing animations respectively regardless of when you land. I know why it happens in a mechanical/programming sense, but I don't understand why they've been left like this for so long. The best reason I can come up with is "because it's always been this way", which I can't say I really like. They should automatically transition into the grounded startup animation if you land before the projectile comes out.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What are people's current thoughts about rob? @ DrinkingFood @Lunchables . He still feels pretty good but he's such an easy combo weight now. As diddy, almost all of both my shiek and ganon combo weight flow chart options work on him.

I haven't gotten to play with any good players offline since the fall speed change. So I can't say for sure. But I already kinda predict it won't make a huge difference; there will be more situations where he's low enough for the next follow-up now, sure. But anytime he can jump he is still going to have a significant chance to escape unharmed. That's still a big deal and always will be. Most characters get punished hard off true combos into staggered option coverage, where you cover a landing from a launcher and then can react to their jump, stuff like that; ROB still won't have to worry about that. Also ganon stuff will only kind work on ROB- his terminal velocity is the same but his gravity is lower, so for the first ~22 frames of knockback or so he's falling slower than ganon, meaning he will still be positioned slightly higher at any given knockback value and angle.

The fall speed change also doesn't really affect him in neutral/his punishment game that much. It doesn't even come into affect until he's been falling for 20+ frames, which I don't think he does in a SH. During offstage carries he also usually doesn't fall for that long, he'd FH fair->DJ fair before falling far->up-b fair before falling far, etc.

Also he got a big buff in the form of side-b lol. I'm not sure, but it might be better than 3.5 side-b

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Can we talk link? Pickles and NZA talked in the midst of all that so I don't recall the ending, but what combo starters does link have? Jab jab dsmash, if perfect on the dsmash links on a non-DIing Marth at 0. That does 21 percent and is cool and all, but dsmash at that percent is -9 on hits vs marth, so I don't really understand how dsmash is a combo starter. What characters does it combo well? Paging @ The_NZA

 

[foxygrandpa]

Can we talk link? Pickles and NZA talked in the midst of all that so I don't recall the ending, but what combo starters does link have? Jab jab dsmash, if perfect on the dsmash links on a non-DIing Marth at 0. That does 21 percent and is cool and all, but dsmash at that percent is -9 on hits vs marth, so I don't really understand how dsmash is a combo starter. What characters does it combo well? Paging @ The_NZA

Link doesn't have too many combo starters besides grabs at low percents. If he manages to force you above him though, you're probably going to die regardless of percent.
Dsmash is really good as a CC option because of its (relatively) quick startup. It's good for tech option coverage too, and can often cover all tech options if you're near the edge.

 

[The_NZA]

Can we talk link? Pickles and NZA talked in the midst of all that so I don't recall the ending, but what combo starters does link have? Jab jab dsmash, if perfect on the dsmash links on a non-DIing Marth at 0. That does 21 percent and is cool and all, but dsmash at that percent is -9 on hits vs marth, so I don't really understand how dsmash is a combo starter. What characters does it combo well? Paging @ The_NZA

What you also have to understand about link is that his combo starters shouldn't be thought of in terms of a vaccum, but in terms of the mixups he has with jab->jab->X. Yes, you can react to jab jab dsmash by attacking link before it or by spot dodging, but those two options lose to jab jab -> grab and jab jab->upb respectively. Link also has jab jab dtilt, jab jab aerial, jab jab full combo, and others. As @ foxygrandpa mentioned, he also dominates you if you try to get above him, and his boomerangs will convert into dair/2nd hit fair if he needs. Dash attack is also somewhat of a combo tool, as are bombs and zair.

THe reason why Link looks bad is that his individual moves in neutral look terrible in their frame data. But between their spacing, and the opening he can create with jab pressure and boomerangs and other threats, he actually can get his combos started. And once he has a combo started, they extend forever and tack on massive damage with less counterplay than other combo kings (like Ness and GnW) since his uairs and other juggles have masive burst damage and add% without giving too many SDI/tech opportunities to escape.

Also, chaingrabs with Link are a thing with jab jab dthrow jab regrab and jab jab dthrow jab jab regrab, although they aren't true with good SDI.

 

[Soft Serve]

Buffered rolls away get out of so many of link's setups, and his only options to cover them are hard reads and if they don't have the room to roll away. Jumping in on him is hard but he needs space to get things started.

 

[Boiko]

Yeah. Ness and Lucas cancel into their 12 and 13 frame landing animations respectively regardless of when you land. I know why it happens in a mechanical/programming sense, but I don't understand why they've been left like this for so long. The best reason I can come up with is "because it's always been this way", which I can't say I really like. They should automatically transition into the grounded startup animation if you land before the projectile comes out.

Yeah, Ness has a few problems with his aerial iteration of the move. I haven't worked out a way to solve them reasonably yet. If Ness accidentally uses it off stage, especially if he wave bounces, he's dead. The IASA is SO LATE, and it happens far more often than it should. I experimented with lowering the IASA but that allowed him to throw one out then DJ and put out another one/an aerial/cross up a shield, etc. It gave him far too many options. I think the problem with aerial PK Fire specifically is that has to been done from a certain point due to the angle of the projectile. It's extremely predictable/kind of bad.

I think the only time I land it against strong players is when I either aim for an exposed part of their body through their shield, or if I wait for them to commit to an aerial and punish the landing.

That being said, I really like the idea of transitioning into the grounded version of the move if he lands with it. I think that's actually a really good idea and would help Ness in more than one way.

Idk about Lucas. Can't really comment on that.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What you also have to understand about link is that his combo starters shouldn't be thought of in terms of a vaccum, but in terms of the mixups he has with jab->jab->X. Yes, you can react to jab jab dsmash by attacking link before it or by spot dodging, but those two options lose to jab jab -> grab and jab jab->upb respectively. Link also has jab jab dtilt, jab jab aerial, jab jab full combo, and others. As @ foxygrandpa mentioned, he also dominates you if you try to get above him, and his boomerangs will convert into dair/2nd hit fair if he needs. Dash attack is also somewhat of a combo tool, as are bombs and zair.

THe reason why Link looks bad is that his individual moves in neutral look terrible in their frame data. But between their spacing, and the opening he can create with jab pressure and boomerangs and other threats, he actually can get his combos started. And once he has a combo started, they extend forever and tack on massive damage with less counterplay than other combo kings (like Ness and GnW) since his uairs and other juggles have masive burst damage and add% without giving too many SDI/tech opportunities to escape.

Also, chaingrabs with Link are a thing with jab jab dthrow jab regrab and jab jab dthrow jab jab regrab, although they aren't true with good SDI.

That didn't really address what I was asking though. I was asking about jab jab dsmash, how is that a combo starter? It doesn't appear to combo with no di on anybody I try it against. And a lot of this seems to go away if you just di the second jab away, much less do any other counterplay available (cc either of the jabs and shield, any level of sdi away plus di, di the second jab and buffer a spotdodge, etc). I guess I just am not convinced he has a reliable way to start his combo game outside of down throw, which with his grab is kind of difficult. Fair doesn't link into the second hit if they di, plus you have to input fair within the second airborne frame otherwise it doesn't come out at a decent spacing. Boomarang, in order for it to combo is a big commitment since you need to hit within 5 frames of releasing it to get the combo hit. Dtilt is too slow to use out of a raw neutral situation. Zair does well to combo, but loses to shielding and cc (i think).

His neutral, if you ignore his struggle in leading into his punish game, is actually decent. Fair, though a bit slow, has 7 frames of landing lag and is safe on shield, does good damage, well disjointed, overall pretty solid. Jab, if they don't DI, is also pretty decent because of its disjoint, but it definitely isn't safe on shield. Nair is quick and low in landing lag, but doesn't have disjoint, so its more of help in mu's where he is outsped. Link also can throw things, makes it hard for characters to do things and has the potential to frustrate them and make them make more mistakes.

As for his punish game, all I'm seeing is up air juggles, the down throw chain grab, sweetspot rang into fair, and zair into things. All good, but they don't flow together well, so I am not seeing him have a super amazing punish game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Buffered rolls away get out of so many of link's setups, and his only options to cover them are hard reads and if they don't have the room to roll away. Jumping in on him is hard but he needs space to get things started.

This is silly placebo lol. Only really bad rolls got buffed much. Some of the quicker rolls got nerfed even. If you're having issues with rolls, you're probably committing too much

 

[InfinityCollision]

Link's jab mixup pressure is pretty weak. Not so much because it's easy to get out of (it is, but that's not the real problem), but because it's really hard for him to continue pressing the advantage if the opponent does choose to move away. He's just too slow/high commitment. A faster character can choose to go right in or take a moment to read their opponent's response without ever really ceding control, but Link doesn't really have that luxury. His pressure is never solid enough to intimidate most characters.

 

[GMaster171]

This is silly placebo lol. Only really bad rolls got buffed much. Some of the quicker rolls got nerfed even. If you're having issues with rolls, you're probably committing too much

"buffered"

 

[Rachman]

Pretty sure Soft Serve was talking about buffering rolls aka holding shield and cstick left/right @ DrinkingFood .

I agree with @ The_NZA about Link, playing Camilo/HoT/Red1 a little should change most people's opinions on Link. Link isn't amazing but I don't believe he is bad by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps he is lower on a mythical, perfectly accurate 3.6 tier list but even then I believe him to be marginally worse than many off those above him. The only thing I would say, assuming wall tethers are never coming, is allow him to bomb jump even with a staled up b. Other than that I don't think Link is far off at all from a healthy yet powerful place.

It's difficult to truly find disagreement with most people's tier lists because most disagreements, that I personally have at least, boil down to essentially me thinking "yea I could see that". For example, I think people sleep on Roy compared to Marth a little, but things like pivot dtilts that could seriously change these characters mus and play style haven't even seen the light of day so who knows.

 

[Soft Serve]

This is silly placebo lol. Only really bad rolls got buffed much. Some of the quicker rolls got nerfed even. If you're having issues with rolls, you're probably committing too much

This isn't about the buffed rolls, I litterally mean ASDI down>buffered rolls out of his jab>jab>mixup stuff.

 

[DrinkingFood]

"buffered"

This isn't about the buffed rolls, I litterally mean ASDI down>buffered rolls out of his jab>jab>mixup stuff.

herp
i read buffed

 

[KinGly]

So what's everyone's thoughts on Pit?
I've been toying around with him and he seems really solid.
Why is he at or near the bottom of most tier list I've seen? No representation?
I feel he's gonna turn out to be high A tier if someone good picks him up, but that's just speculation I suppose.

 

[Life]

Pit is the character everyone talks about but nobody plays.

 

[FreeGamer]

So this is my first impression of 3.6, only confident on the top 5 order and the rest are alphabetical in rough groupings. A lot of characters could go up/down a tier, and I don't even know if I agree with the amount of characters in each tier.
View attachment 69300
Basically s tier just has incredible mu spreads that set them above the rest of the cast. I put wolf over fox because while wolf loses the head to heads with fox/falco, I think he wins a lot of MUs harder than fox, and many mus that are closer to even for fox (ddd, marth, maybe rob still?) Wolf should run over. MK is really broken and only loses a handful of mus and dominates a lot of them with just his dd range. Diddy only loses to fox/wolf/samus/peach/wario for the most part, but has a lot of even mus where he has to camp and if he gets touched he dies, which is why I don't think he's better than falco/mk, despite diddy completely destroying all the fatties and slower characters.

The two high tiers are pretty interchangeable really, just didn't want to put them all in one row. Tons of good, strong, very viable characters that have varying degrees of effort needed to play them.

Last two rows are the actually bad characters. They have moves that just don't work well often, lose to a strategy they have minimal ways around (bowser still loses to the z button, ivy/ness get wrecked by proper cc and sdi, etc). I would have link one tier up but he lost a lot of range on his grab by accident and I think that really really hurts him, because it makes the range that people can sit in shield vs him safely even closer.
DK is just bad and bland.

Can I just take a moment to thank you for not putting Kirby in the bottom 10?

 

[Ripple]

I played pit in grand finales of wave dash Wednesday last night. Lost to kels 3-1. But they were pretty close games for my new pit.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

When will vods be uploaded to YouTube?

 

[Giygacoal]

Donkey Kong is the best character in project m please discuss

He can 4-stock with his new taunt alone.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

What if Ness's frame perfect PKFire was made significantly easier, would that help his neutral?

Also, I watched wdw. Ripple is the best Pit, no ****ing contest. Stay fresh Ripple.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I'll reiterate that individually his moves aren't all that, but the diversity of the toolset makes him flexible and adaptable, and his increased movement speed helps it out a lot. The thing about links is all his combos seem dirty as hell. Even at high levels theres a decent amount of improv you have to do with, say, a returning boomerang to continue a combo by canceling the enemies backwords momentum or a z dropped bomb to get a quick edgeguard. A good link has to be creative in a way certain characters only have to play "solidly." Either way i admire his potential and want to see a true master with the character do some work.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What if Ness's frame perfect PKFire was made significantly easier, would that help his neutral?

Also, I watched wdw. Ripple is the best Pit, no ****ing contest. Stay fresh Ripple.

would be broken af I think. At the very least, extremely silly.
although I do think he should have the ability to land as it starts, to continue the throw on the ground, giving him more flexibility in how he starts it and where it goes.

 

[Hylian]

What you also have to understand about link is that his combo starters shouldn't be thought of in terms of a vaccum, but in terms of the mixups he has with jab->jab->X. Yes, you can react to jab jab dsmash by attacking link before it or by spot dodging, but those two options lose to jab jab -> grab and jab jab->upb respectively. Link also has jab jab dtilt, jab jab aerial, jab jab full combo, and others. As @ foxygrandpa mentioned, he also dominates you if you try to get above him, and his boomerangs will convert into dair/2nd hit fair if he needs. Dash attack is also somewhat of a combo tool, as are bombs and zair.

THe reason why Link looks bad is that his individual moves in neutral look terrible in their frame data. But between their spacing, and the opening he can create with jab pressure and boomerangs and other threats, he actually can get his combos started. And once he has a combo started, they extend forever and tack on massive damage with less counterplay than other combo kings (like Ness and GnW) since his uairs and other juggles have masive burst damage and add% without giving too many SDI/tech opportunities to escape.

Also, chaingrabs with Link are a thing with jab jab dthrow jab regrab and jab jab dthrow jab jab regrab, although they aren't true with good SDI.

Link's combos extend forever?

lmfao. Link is horrible at combing, as most slow characters are. He's pretty good at juggling(not nearly as good as say TL, who can shffl uair characters at low % while Link can't), but the vast majority of his combos are only two or three hits, even on the most combo fodder character. Most of his moves are SDI'able to escape combos(SDI jab gets you out of any jab mix-up at all...lol).

Some strings:
Dthrow -> uptilt -> aerial. End combo.
Dash attack -> aerial. End combo.
Sweetspot rang -> anything. End combo.
Upsmash -> Upsmash(fastfallers). End combo(if you even got one off in the first place considering you can barely sdi and just fall out of upsmash)

If it's not DI'd out of, his absolute best combo is something like Jab x2 -> Dtilt -> reverse bair -> smash attack on platform/rang into aerial/aerial depending on DI.

His 3 hit combos are his best ones and they are mostly on combo fodder and often escapable with SDI people just suck at SDI and combo DI. I've put more time into link than any of my other characters, yet it's incredibly obvious how hard he is to combo with. His short combos are easy, but 2-3 hit combos with little room for innovation does not make a good combo game. I mean ice climbers are better at comboing than link without even grabbing the opponent lol.

 

[Ripple]

When will vods be uploaded to YouTube?

What if I told you they already were.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xh-xParoCfE 2 games in WFsWFs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vTKyv62KxTY

GFs here.

I would keep in mind this is my first time playing a human with pit

 

[frankxthexbunny]

What if I told you they already were.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xh-xParoCfE 2 games in WFsWFs

hell of a laugh that announcer's got

 

[InfinityCollision]

What if Ness's frame perfect PKFire was made significantly easier, would that help his neutral?

That seems rather unintuitive from a mechanics standpoint. While it'd obviously be a buff in some capacity, I can't say I really like the idea of assigning perfect PKF an arbitrary input window. Better to look for solutions elsewhere.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What if I told you they already were.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xh-xParoCfE 2 games in WFsWFs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vTKyv62KxTY

GFs here.

I would keep in mind this is my first time playing a human with pit

I'm shocked. I remember like last year or something an exposure happened and it took like a month just for wcs to finally upload it. I'll watch these tonight since I'm in the thought process part of a tier list and don't know what to do with Pit. Initial impressions when I start messing around with him are always high (middle of 3.5 and 3.6b), but then I just get this feeling he actually is pretty bad since other characters are way better.

 

[Player -0]

Link's hard combos are really situational/need hard read. His juggles excel pretty well though.

Ness' frame perfect PKF (where it goes on ground from aerial) would be pretty broken with DJC I think.

 

[Tokei]

CSA doesn't impair aerial control for other aerials. The tradeoffs really aren't that big in either direction... do you want perfect control over nair momentum and the ability to jab and ftilt while holding straight down (as opposed to the usual down+back for repeated jab cancels), or frame-perfect crouch dashing and moonwalking plus yet another way to make pivots easy?

I'm just waiting for the day when CSA up/down does tilts (and ideally works with c-stick movement tricks) and CSS diagonal inputs work for jab/nair. Best of all worlds.

With c-stick attack, there's characters I'd want up/down inputs to give me smash attacks, and other characters I'd want tilts instead. Preferably there'd be an option for both, the more freedom of customization of controls the better. But i'm unsure how possible this all is to program.

The addition of the c-stick movement options would be great, as well as the ability to jump cancel usmash with the c-stick while CSA is on (this is my main issue playing with it).

 

[Nausicaa]

Here's my question: why do PK Fire and PK Freeze actively punish you for landing before the projectile comes out?

Samus pre-3.5 syndrome

Dedede is Ooze tier for life.

Link's Dash-Attack, Rang (worse than earlier patches of course), Z-Air, DACUS sometimes, or anything that leads into Grab, are all good 'starters'

Your best bet to extend Link's combos is to aim for reset attempts with more Jabs. He can chain a few hits and do something like the Jab > combo things people have mentioned here, and end it with B-Air > Jabs > repeat a different string.
Fun character.
I'm with @Mr.Pickle though. Throw about 3 other characters in his list of bottom 3 and I'd agree with the choices for bottom 6 shuffled around a bit.

 

[MrLul]

Why is Ness so low in all of the tier lists I see wtf

 

[EmptySky00]

What you also have to understand about link is that his combo starters shouldn't be thought of in terms of a vaccum, but in terms of the mixups he has with jab->jab->X. Yes, you can react to jab jab dsmash by attacking link before it or by spot dodging, but those two options lose to jab jab -> grab and jab jab->upb respectively. Link also has jab jab dtilt, jab jab aerial, jab jab full combo, and others. As @ foxygrandpa mentioned, he also dominates you if you try to get above him, and his boomerangs will convert into dair/2nd hit fair if he needs. Dash attack is also somewhat of a combo tool, as are bombs and zair.

THe reason why Link looks bad is that his individual moves in neutral look terrible in their frame data. But between their spacing, and the opening he can create with jab pressure and boomerangs and other threats, he actually can get his combos started. And once he has a combo started, they extend forever and tack on massive damage with less counterplay than other combo kings (like Ness and GnW) since his uairs and other juggles have masive burst damage and add% without giving too many SDI/tech opportunities to escape.

Also, chaingrabs with Link are a thing with jab jab dthrow jab regrab and jab jab dthrow jab jab regrab, although they aren't true with good SDI.

Why is Link doing jab jab up B? That sounds absolutely terrible. Also how is he doing jab jab Dtilt unless his opponent's controller is unplugged? And jab jab aerial? What aerial? SH Fair would take 19 frames to come out. 20 if you go for the full range hit. His Uair is amazing, but he doesn't have the movement to just follow you forever. His combos also absolutely do not extend forever. Your analysis sounds hardcore like someone who's only looked at the character from a superficial standpoint through a telescope with a busted lens from 2 countries away.

Jab - regrab stuff is just jank and isn't an actual tool that should be used often imo.

 

[Life]

What if I told you they already were.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xh-xParoCfE 2 games in WFsWFs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vTKyv62KxTY

GFs here.

I would keep in mind this is my first time playing a human with pit

Not a bad showing! If you don't mind a bit of unsolicited advice:

Spoiler

a lot of stuff that works for Dedede edgeguarding (ledgehop aerials being a big one, especially bair) works really well for Pit as well, and I didn't see you go for those as much as I thought you could. The exact move choices are a little different, obviously, but I bet a lot of it transfers. I suspect you'll see dramatically better results once you can make those connections and finish your food a little better.

That all said, I'm excited to see where this goes, since you also do some things I haven't really gotten a handle on, particularly in neutral which is where either Pit's weak or I'm just bad--sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

But yeah, I'm happy to see someone actually competent behind the wheel on this guy.