Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

agt just makes peach neutral that much more cool because of agt's startup that peach can bait

 

[Downdraft]

bowser's nair doesn't autocancel
bowser's nair can't suddenly shift momentum in 1 of 4 directions
bowser's nair doesn't have disjoint
bowser's nair isn't on a floaty that also has frame 6 (?) kill moves that punish you for spacing around the naryu's nair
bowser still takes damage if you trade with nair
bowser's nair armor can be broken

all the ways it's different from nayru's, in an easy to digest format, @Oracle

@ 4tlas lmao don't ever suggest that Nayru's was anything short of the most ridiculous combo breaker PM has ever had

Most people that complain about Zelda speak from emotion rather than reason. What few seem to understand is that Zelda's special attacks were central to her strength/viability before 3.5. Now they're more like filler. Nayru's, Din's, and Farore's received the largest changes out of her moveset and lost utility. I'd agree that Nayru's was the best combo escaper, but I wouldn't call it ridiculous. The invulnerability was on frames 4-11. If she didn't auto-cancel the attack, then she suffered regular lag. If Diamond Dive was auto-canceled, then all the opponent had to do was shield grab after Nayru's or her followup attack. Now she has trouble escaping juggles and returning to the stage. The removal of invulnerability no longer allows the attack to be used as a pseudo approach safely. It can be shield grabbed and loses to a lot of attacks. The top and bottom of the diamond do not have hitbox coverage.

3.6 Beta Din's does not force approaches, control space, or aid her approaches, meaning it lost its potential as a defensive attack. 3.6 Beta Din's is not better at setting up future combos, setting up recovery obstacles, or covering Zelda's recovery. It also lacks the precision and range of 3.02 Din's, which matters a lot. The PMDT added several visual and auditory cues to Din's to make it much easier to counterplay. Shielding the mine makes it return to Zelda.

Zelda can't glide toss with Farore's anymore either, which weakens the character's ability to counter throwable items.

Removal of the super sweetspot means that Zeldas are less rewarded for strict spacing, which might encourage them to throw the move out more often since there's no great reward for perfect spacing. The sweetspot is easy. The weaker kill power also means that where Zelda used to could kill fast fallers, she now is put into an edgeguarding situation if she's lucky and may have to win neutral again with her poor neutral. 0-death combos already relied on playing in big open spaces that were only available on GHZ, Smashville, Dreamland, and FD. Now they are harder since U-smash sends higher at higher percents and kicks kill later. Jab was ruined. Its angle was changed from 55 to 361, so it sends too low for followups that aren't even guaranteed if the opponent DI's properly.

Objectively, Nayru's, Din's, Farore's, and Jab are functionally worse than 3.02 and she lost some options that compensated for her poor attributes (short wavedash and dash dance, slow ground and air speed, tall, and floaty). F-throw is the only move that's functionally better than its 3.02 counterpart. Her frame 11 jab's final hit is -5 on shield, making it her safest ground attack on shield. She can interrupt it 9 frames after the final hit. F-smash's final hit is on frame 24 and is -8 on shield, and the move has a 39 frame duration making it unsafe on shield. All other grounded attacks are double digit negative on shield.

She struggles versus projectile pressure, shorter characters, disjoint, and highly mobile characters. She's always had counterplay and been mid tier or lower, yet she gets the most complaints. Even after being transformed into a significantly weaker character and getting her playstyle changed, people still complain, and it's extremely rare for the opposition to either propose changes that would fix her into a solo viable character or explain rationally what is wrong with her in the first place. Of the floaty characters, only Jigglypuff is worse. She has no reliable setups into kills and usually ends up getting them off reaction, e.g. B-throw, lightning kicks OOS, and U-tilt hard reads. Many characters don't have to respect Zelda's options, so the notion that she forces opponents to play her game is false. Unless you're playing one of the few characters she beats, then you have the option to make her come to you and play the match by your rules. In her current state, she can't really dictate anything versus a good player or character.

The double standards are amazing. Shine is hype and allowed to stay in its current form while Nayru's is supposedly stupid. Shine and magnet are both greater than Nayru's, yet receive less hate. Captain Falcon has D-throw or U-throw setups into Knee, which is awesome, but Zelda combos into LK off bad DI and the salt ensues. Fox, Falco, Samus, or Link tell the player to come to them, and the player obliges. Zelda casts and recalls Din's, and the opponent whines about how boring that is to play against and how they're not interested in moving around a much weaker projectile. The list goes on. She has become Melee+ Zelda rather than an impressively distinct character from the official games. Most of Zelda's opposition isn't interested in clearing their mind and having a calm, honest reflection on their thoughts about Zelda in comparison with the rest of the cast.

 

[4tlas]

bowser's nair doesn't autocancel
bowser's nair can't suddenly shift momentum in 1 of 4 directions
bowser's nair doesn't have disjoint
bowser's nair isn't on a floaty that also has frame 6 (?) kill moves that punish you for spacing around the naryu's nair
bowser still takes damage if you trade with nair
bowser's nair armor can be broken

all the ways it's different from nayru's, in an easy to digest format, @Oracle

@ 4tlas lmao don't ever suggest that Nayru's was anything short of the most ridiculous combo breaker PM has ever had

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Nayrus was good, I didnt say it was bad, I didnt say it should return, I didnt say I miss it, I didnt say she needed it, I didn't say it wasn't polarizing, I didn't say it wasn't the best combo breaker. I essentially said "these are the few ways in which Nayrus is different from Bowser nair" in an attempt to elaborate on what Oracle said. You did the same, but you also felt the need to throw in some extra bull**** assumptions about my intent.

 

[didds]

Everyone knows yoshi's double jump is the best combo breaker

 

[Tomaster]

anyone else think G&W needs a major nerf? I might pick him up as a secondary just cuz he's so easy to play and so rewarding.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I know it's impossible to implement, but sometime I wish every character had access to a turnip-like item. Item tech is just so fun, especially with characters whose movement is less than amazing. I love playing against peach just because I'll get to AGT turnips a couple of times.

 

[PlateProp]

I know it's impossible to implement, but sometime I wish every character had access to a turnip-like item. Item tech is just so fun, especially with characters whose movement is less than amazing. I love playing against peach just because I'll get to AGT turnips a couple of times.

Squirtle with consistent item generation (even if he himself didnt have ut)would be broken as ****, you do not want this for everyone lol

 

[Electric Tuba]

Squirtle with consistent item generation (even if he himself didnt have ut)would be broken as ****, you do not want this for everyone lol

Nothing to do with balance, it'd just be fun. Item mechanics are really enjoyable, at least for me.

 

[Akhenderson]

I do like item mechanics, mainly because I keep seeing all these peach, link and toon link mains throw bombs at me and I go "Thanks for the free AGT mate!"

 

[Cis]

anyone else think G&W needs a major nerf? I might pick him up as a secondary just cuz he's so easy to play and so rewarding.

I don't really consider him OP. He's not the most complex character, yeah, but I think he's in a decent place.

 

[Narelex]

I don't really consider him OP. He's not the most complex character, yeah, but I think he's in a decent place.

I feel like if anything we need to increase the visual clarity on when his moves finish. Learning that matchup for the first time is nothing short of frustrating due to the lingering hitboxes on all his moves and the difficulty in knowing when said hitboxes are done.

 

[Binary Clone]

I'm incredibly bored at work, so I made an attempt at a tier list.

No order within tiers.

Tell me why I'm wrong. I'm too tired/lazy to have really deeply analysed this at the moment, so most of this is gut feeling.

 

[Narelex]

I'm incredibly bored at work, so I made an attempt at a tier list.

No order within tiers.
View attachment 67536

Tell me why I'm wrong. I'm too tired/lazy to have really deeply analysed this at the moment, so most of this is gut feeling.

MK is too low. His MU spread is much better then most of the characters he's under. I'd put him top of A tier or the end of S tier tbh.

MK Matchup's (3.6b)

 

[Binary Clone]

MK is too low. His MU spread is much better then most of the characters he's under. I'd put him top of A tier or the end of S tier tbh.

No order within tiers, but I think I agree.

 

[Tomaster]

@ Binary Clone looks roughly right.. It's hard to make tier lists for this game but let me make a few suggestions for this one. Firstly G&W is definitely top 5 imo. I'd put him at S tier. Secondly, from reading the shiek discussions on her forum it seems everyone agrees shiek is not top tier anymore.. So she's probably not A. Lastly I'd put puff way at the bottom.

Im not sure about diddy and wolf being S.. But idk much about them so i probably shouldn't argue.

Edit: snake should be A tier imo if not S, and sonic is too low, he's top 20 imo.

 

[Cis]

I feel like if anything we need to increase the visual clarity on when his moves finish. Learning that matchup for the first time is nothing short of frustrating due to the lingering hitboxes on all his moves and the difficulty in knowing when said hitboxes are done.

You're not wrong, the active hitboxes on his moves are really deceptive.

 

[Downdraft]

I'm incredibly bored at work, so I made an attempt at a tier list.

No order within tiers.
View attachment 67536

Tell me why I'm wrong. I'm too tired/lazy to have really deeply analysed this at the moment, so most of this is gut feeling.

This looks good to me.

On another topic, what's up with the 1x SDI normalization on multihit attacks? Some multihit attacks aren't functioning reliably or as intended with the increases in SDI multipliers that occurred in the previous two updates. That gives an unnecessary advantage to characters that don't rely on multihits for combos or kills. When you properly space and time an attack, why shouldn't it work the same every time? Imagine if there was a tech that allowed players to take a small fraction of the damage from Falcon's Knee or Fox's U-smash but no knockback.

 

[Boiko]

This looks good to me.

On another topic, what's up with the 1x SDI normalization on multihit attacks? Some multihit attacks aren't functioning reliably or as intended with the increases in SDI multipliers that occurred in the previous two updates. That gives an unnecessary advantage to characters that don't rely on multihits for combos or kills. When you properly space and time an attack, why shouldn't it work the same every time? Imagine if there was a tech that allowed players to take a small fraction of the damage from Falcon's Knee or Fox's U-smash but no knockback.

It's counter play. It's kind of silly to me that some attacks, that are very spammable, like ROB's down smash wouldn't have normal SDI modifiers.

Just like it makes no sense to me that the SDI modifiers on Zelda's up and forward smashes are .25x.

 

[Life]

This looks good to me.

On another topic, what's up with the 1x SDI normalization on multihit attacks? Some multihit attacks aren't functioning reliably or as intended with the increases in SDI multipliers that occurred in the previous two updates. That gives an unnecessary advantage to characters that don't rely on multihits for combos or kills. When you properly space and time an attack, why shouldn't it work the same every time? Imagine if there was a tech that allowed players to take a small fraction of the damage from Falcon's Knee or Fox's U-smash but no knockback.

Multihit moves trade off SDI vulnerability and being poor trading moves in favor of being long lasting, more likely to shield poke, and possibly a couple other things I can't think of off the top of my head. They aren't strictly worse than single-hit moves.

 

[Soft Serve]

Multihit moves trade off SDI vulnerability and being poor trading moves in favor of being long lasting, more likely to shield poke, and possibly a couple other things I can't think of off the top of my head. They aren't strictly worse than single-hit moves.

A lot easier to hit comfirm off of due to the long lasting hitboxes and multiple points of hitlag

 

[4tlas]

Multihit moves trade off SDI vulnerability and being poor trading moves in favor of being long lasting, more likely to shield poke, and possibly a couple other things I can't think of off the top of my head. They aren't strictly worse than single-hit moves.

Being long lasting is itself a tradeoff with being spammable. The best part about multihit moves is they annoy the **** out of your opponent =P

 

[Boiko]

Being long lasting is itself a tradeoff with being spammable. The best part about multihit moves is they annoy the **** out of your opponent =P

Not necessarily. I can hit Zelda's fmash like fives times before Samus' ice up smash, for example. It's a case by case basis.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I've never liked Toad design-wise either.

I mean, he has been portrayed as an independent character (aka not Peach's b*tch) for so long.

Even the game where she got her most iconic tool (turnip) from, SMB2, has him as a playable main character. It's just not fair T__T

 

[Downdraft]

Not necessarily. I can hit Zelda's fmash like fives times before Samus' ice up smash, for example. It's a case by case basis.

A lot of moves are spammable in space. Try spamming F-smash or U-smash on shield and get wrecked.
Multihit attacks can suffer more limitations than SDI counterplay. Multihits can be unsafe on whiff or shield. Multihits can have significant cooldown. Zelda's U-smash is an example of all 3. The 0.25x is fine. Her combo game centers around U-smash and N-air with U-tilt and F-tilt to setup sometimes. Characters' kill and combo options shouldn't be broken by counterplay. SDI normalization punishes characters with multihit reliance. Fox lands an U-smash, and he knows it'll kill at high percents. Pit lands an U-smash and maybe it'll kill. Falcon lands a N-air and reads the opponent's DI into another attack. Zelda lands a N-air and then nothing with proper SDI. Is that fair?

 

[Boiko]

A lot of moves are spammable in space. Try spamming F-smash or U-smash on shield and get wrecked.

I was addressing 4tlas' point.

Multihit attacks can suffer more limitations than SDI counterplay. Multihits can be unsafe on whiff or shield. Multihits can have significant cooldown. Zelda's U-smash is an example of all 3. The 0.25x is fine. Her combo game centers around U-smash and N-air with U-tilt and F-tilt to setup sometimes. Characters' kill and combo options shouldn't be broken by counterplay. SDI normalization punishes characters with multihit reliance. Fox lands an U-smash, and he knows it'll kill at high percents. Pit lands an U-smash and maybe it'll kill. Falcon lands a N-air and reads the opponent's DI into another attack. Zelda lands a N-air and then nothing with proper SDI. Is that fair?

Yes, because every move can suffer different degrees of counter play. Multi hit moves have more opportunities to shield poke, they beat spot dodges, can cover different get up options by lasting through invincibility, etc. From what I understand, there are very few multi hit moves that double as kill moves. Zelda's fsmash, sure, but the SDI modifiers are .25x, making it next to impossible to SDI out of.

Any move can be unsafe on whiff or shield, that's a weird point to bring up.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i dont buy that zelda is a bad character, i got closer to winning an infinity and beyond half playing zelda (and losing the other half as peach 100% of the time) than i ever did playing sheik and my sheik is godlike. i go about even with or slightly beat lunchables marth which is a ****ing monster and pretty easily better than all the other PM marths. she has a ton of moves with low startup, no lag, CC-proof, nearly DI-proof, disjointed, lingering that combo into each other. its ridiculously easy to combo 0-55+ on like any combo weight, her shield game is godly, her recovery is godly, idk i get that shes slow in neutral but i have a very hard time thinking of her as "bad".

if you jump around kicking in neutral and playing "shielda", the problem is you, not your character.

 

[4tlas]

Not necessarily. I can hit Zelda's fmash like fives times before Samus' ice up smash, for example. It's a case by case basis.

Samus' Ice Upsmash has long cooldown to balance out the quick startup and massive range. The person I was responding to said multihits are long-lasting as a tradeoff for being bad for trades. I was pointing out that long-lasting is a tradeoff with itself because it means that the move is forced to stay out at least as long as it lasts. I think your point has nothing to do with mine.

yeah i dont buy that zelda is a bad character, i got closer to winning an infinity and beyond half playing zelda (and losing the other half as peach 100% of the time) than i ever did playing sheik and my sheik is godlike. i go about even with or slightly beat lunchables marth which is a ****ing monster and pretty easily better than all the other PM marths. she has a ton of moves with low startup, no lag, CC-proof, nearly DI-proof, disjointed, lingering that combo into each other. its ridiculously easy to combo 0-55+ on like any combo weight, her shield game is godly, her recovery is godly, idk i get that shes slow in neutral but i have a very hard time thinking of her as "bad".

if you jump around kicking in neutral and playing "shielda", the problem is you, not your character.

I enjoy when you make posts that are a string of factual statements, because you are usually correct with your facts. In this case, you have pointed out most of Zelda's strengths accurately. Then you do **** like firing shots at bad Zelda players and all Sheilda players, because that's totally relevant and constructive. So close.

 

[ZGE]

yeah i dont buy that zelda is a bad character, i got closer to winning an infinity and beyond half playing zelda (and losing the other half as peach 100% of the time) than i ever did playing sheik and my sheik is godlike. i go about even with or slightly beat lunchables marth which is a ****ing monster and pretty easily better than all the other PM marths. she has a ton of moves with low startup, no lag, CC-proof, nearly DI-proof, disjointed, lingering that combo into each other. its ridiculously easy to combo 0-55+ on like any combo weight, her shield game is godly, her recovery is godly, idk i get that shes slow in neutral but i have a very hard time thinking of her as "bad".

if you jump around kicking in neutral and playing "shielda", the problem is you, not your character.

Zelda is also incredibly susceptible to juggles, has a very mediocre projectile that fast characters will punish for throwing out (and characters with disjoints will clank away), a poor approach, dies early off the top, and loses to characters with speed/good projectiles/disjoints. She doesn't deal well with characters in her face and often has to rely on reads to get things started.

I would say that, as good a player as you are, your Zelda probably did as well as it did because of a lack of matchup experience if I had to guess. Zelda is mid tier at best.

 

[FreeGamer]

Zelda has a godly recovery? Are you sure you're playing the same game as us?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Worth noting tele cancel lets you snap to platforms/the stage for low lag recovery, as well as sweetspot (?) from almost anywhere.

 

[Soft Serve]

Zelda has a godly recovery? Are you sure you're playing the game as us?

Its a teleport with full range of motion, 19 frames of invincibility while traveling (and invisible), and you can stop it at any time during the movement. Its pretty ****ing good. yeah its got 30 frames of landing lag, but it goes so far that zelda can just threaten a high recovery on stage and if you can't cover both that and sweetspot to the ledge unless you're like, sonic or falcon. you can also start the high recovery, shorten it and drift back to the ledge, sweetspot the ledge with shorten from any distance/direction, platform cancel it at any distance with shorten, etc. It has end lag and if they player is predictable or not on point with the tech skill its not great, but her options are incredible. Imagine if fox could shorten his up-b at any point while traveling.

 

[Boiko]

Samus' Ice Upsmash has long cooldown to balance out the quick startup and massive range. The person I was responding to said multihits are long-lasting as a tradeoff for being bad for trades. I was pointing out that long-lasting is a tradeoff with itself because it means that the move is forced to stay out at least as long as it lasts. I think your point has nothing to do with mine.

I hope you realize that's a good thing.

Zelda has a godly recovery? Are you sure you're playing the game as us?

An omnidirectional teleport that in itself is a 50/50 mix up on whether she's going to cancel with virtually no lag or into a burst to cover herself is pretty good.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda is also incredibly susceptible to juggles, has a very mediocre projectile that fast characters will punish for throwing out (and characters with disjoints will clank away), a poor approach, dies early off the top, and loses to characters with speed/good projectiles/disjoints. She doesn't deal well with characters in her face and often has to rely on reads to get things started.

I would say that, as good a player as you are, your Zelda probably did as well as it did because of a lack of matchup experience if I had to guess. Zelda is mid tier at best.

i agree with literally none of this.

i only play with like a quarter of the top 20 players in the world every week, i guess everyone secretly sucks.

edit-

An omnidirectional teleport that in itself is a 50/50 mix up on whether she's going to cancel with virtually no lag or into a burst to cover herself is pretty good.

lmao. no reply, just lmao

 

[Ace55]

i agree with literally none of this.

You don't think she dies early off the top?

 

[ZGE]

i agree with literally none of this.

i only play with like a quarter of the top 20 players in the world every week, i guess everyone secretly sucks.

edit-



lmao. no reply, just lmao

Let's talk about it then. At the very least regarding what I said about Zelda's properties and not you or your competition, what would you say about Zelda's matchups and weaknesses if what I said is wrong?

 

[4tlas]

I hope you realize that's a good thing.

No, it is just a thing. You are talking about how long hitboxes last relative to the move. That proportion is important, and is often what makes multihits good. I am talking about the minimum time commitment of a move, and how multihits being long-lasting means their time-commitment is pretty heavy. Thus they are not spammable and are very effectively punished with outmaneuvering, which is a weakness of theirs. Your point has nothing to do with mine.

 

[FreeGamer]

Farore's Wind is a great recovery, no doubt. I just wouldn't describe it as godly. When I think of a godly recovery, the horror of 3.0 Lucas is what comes to mind. :x

 

[Boiko]

No, it is just a thing. You are talking about how long hitboxes last relative to the move. That proportion is important, and is often what makes multihits good. I am talking about the minimum time commitment of a move, and how multihits being long-lasting means their time-commitment is pretty heavy. Thus they are not spammable and are very effectively punished with outmaneuvering, which is a weakness of theirs. Your point has nothing to do with mine.

So you're saying the total frame commitment of the move, and how, due to the properties of multi hit moves generally lasting longer, they're worse because their IASA is later? If so, no, that's not correct. Take a look at ROB's down smash relative to his other smash attacks, or even a lot of other smash attacks in the game. Or Peach's down smash, or Zelda's fsmash, all multi hit moves with generally low FAF compared to other smash attacks. Hell, even Samus' fire and ice beam up smashes have the same FAF and one is a multi hit and the other isn't.

There are some exceptions, like Mewtwo's up smash, but there are exceptions to non multi hit moves either, like Lucas' up smash.

If this still isn't what you're saying, than I have no idea.

 

[4tlas]

So you're saying the total frame commitment of the move, and how, due to the properties of multi hit moves generally lasting longer, they're worse because their IASA is later? If so, no, that's not correct. Take a look at ROB's down smash relative to his other smash attacks, or even a lot of other smash attacks in the game. Or Peach's down smash, or Zelda's fsmash, all multi hit moves with generally low FAF compared to other smash attacks. Hell, even Samus' fire and ice beam up smashes have the same FAF and one is a multi hit and the other isn't.

There are some exceptions, like Mewtwo's up smash, but there are exceptions to non multi hit moves either, like Lucas' up smash.

If this still isn't what you're saying, than I have no idea.

I'm not saying they're worse for any reason. I'm saying that a multihit moves is forced to stay out long enough to put out all the hits. They are inherently committal. Yes, what you're saying is true that the fastest and best multihits are faster than the slowest moves, but we are talking about theoretical inherent design.

My original post was responding to

Multihit moves trade off SDI vulnerability and being poor trading moves in favor of being long lasting, more likely to shield poke, and possibly a couple other things I can't think of off the top of my head. They aren't strictly worse than single-hit moves.

, where all of the things said generally apply to multi-hit moves, but there are exceptions. In this post, for example, you could say not all multihits are more likely to shield poke than non-multihits; look at Roy's dtilt. The point is we are comparing the same move as a multihit and as a single hit, and defining the other attributes that get changed as a result.

A multi-hit version of the same move is forced to stay out for at least as long as the multiple hits, whereas a single hit version could be done after the first hit. Look at, say, Ike's Brawl dsmash vs his PM dsmash.

 

[Boiko]

I'm not saying they're worse for any reason. I'm saying that a multihit moves is forced to stay out long enough to put out all the hits. They are inherently committal. Yes, what you're saying is true that the fastest and best multihits are faster than the slowest moves, but we are talking about theoretical inherent design.

How is that any different than any other move that can't be cancelled?

multihit moves is forced to stay out long enough to put out all the hits

Those hits are active during the window where a non-multi hit move is inactive and then they have similar IASAs. Like, every move is forced to stay out for the duration of it's hitboxes plus it's associated cooldown UNLESS IT CAN BE CANCELLED EARLIER. Multi hit moves almost always have a significantly smaller window between the last frame of hit box activity and the first actionable frame. For example, Zelda's fsmash concluding 15 frames before actionable versus Marth's fsmash concluding 35 frames before actionable.

multihit moves is forced to stay out long enough to put out all the hits

This quote makes it sounds like you're saying that multi hit moves are more of a commitment because they're required to stay out the entire duration of the move but that makes LITERALLY ZERO SENSE.

My original post was responding to

, where all of the things said generally apply to multi-hit moves, but there are exceptions. In this post, for example, you could say not all multihits are more likely to shield poke than non-multihits; look at Roy's dtilt. The point is we are comparing the same move as a multihit and as a single hit, and defining the other attributes that get changed as a result.

A multi-hit version of the same move is forced to stay out for at least as long as the multiple hits, whereas a single hit version could be done after the first hit. Look at, say, Ike's Brawl dsmash vs his PM dsmash.

Ike's down smash is entirely different because it's cancellable after the first swing.

So you're saying that if Zelda's fsmash was only active for say frame 16, where the first hit box comes out, it would be better, because following the same stats that it has now, the FAF would be 31? If so, I hope that you realize how ludicrous that is.