Tier List Speculation

[DiZZ]

So me and drinking food had a pretty in depth convo last night about the balance of dk and have come to the conclusion a subtle change as this will make dk more viable in the current meta
Dong Changes
Nair hit frame 7->5;
Fair damage 17->18, KB compensated, l-cancel lag 14->12;
ftilt hits in front of DK frame 9->7, IASA frame 34->33 (matched to ROBs speed);
Jab 2-> 30 BKB, 165 KBG;
spotdodge matched to Ike/Lucas/Marth/Ness/Peach/Snake/Zelda/ROB/Mr. G&W (invul 2-18, IASA 28);
Up Smash IASA 48->40

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I don't have DK's updated frame data on hand, but are any of his moves meaty? Like long active frames he can take advantage of?

 

[The_NZA]

I don't have DK's updated frame data on hand, but are any of his moves meaty? Like long active frames he can take advantage of?

Bair? Nair? Those would be the two.

 

[Ripple]

Those changes doesn't address any of DKs problems

 

[DiZZ]

not so much some of his moves are meaty but nair and bair get weak after the initial frames they last the longest out of all of his hitboxes though

 

[DiZZ]

Those changes doesn't address any of DKs problems

This was the only way to change dk slightly without pmdt having to make a huge change like a cocconut gun on barrel in neutral for side b before 3.6 full release in later releases I would advocate for something of the sort but a small change before 3.6 full would be nice.

 

[Player -0]

Okay. When it's said that knockback is compensated does it mean that the move is compensated so it has the original knockback or the knockback is being compensated so it's stronger (because of the damage)... or something.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Bair? Nair? Those would be the two.

I agree w/ Ripple, and yea, he's gonna need a lot more than just 2 meaty moves.

 

[DiZZ]

DrinkingFood stated for how laggy the move is you should get a bonus on hit and on shield so that you dont get punished as of right now fair on shield is -5 and if you are able to land a fair on a floaty and they live you wont have the same option to fair more then likely again at later percents.

 

[Ripple]

I mean, telling me how to help him out a little for 3.6 is cool but you spoke as if those changes would make him viable.

I would legitimately like to try it DK with wind boxes on some of his animations to create a pseudo magnetism effect

 

[AceGamer]

imo the only move of DKs where vacuum wind boxes would make sense is his Up B and possibly nair, everything else looks like it would generate pushing winds lol

 

[DiZZ]

I just dont know if pmdt will do it they have never done anything for the character before so it would be surprising to me

 

[4tlas]

Okay. When it's said that knockback is compensated does it mean that the move is compensated so it has the original knockback or the knockback is being compensated so it's stronger (because of the damage)... or something.

Knockback adjusted so that damage does not change the overall knockback, I believe.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Those changes doesn't address any of DKs problems

Jab buff so he can beat true CC punish attempts (other hard hitters others don't break true CC at 60 like DKs change would, but they push far away enough, DKs just gets extra strength since it doesn't push away)? Spotdodge buff to make him less grabbable? Nair buff to make him slightly less combo food? Fair buff (it would be -2 on shield so it doesn't always get grabbed) to give him better threat options facing forwards? I don't see how these don't address problems

Slight ftilt buff to make it more hittable isn't a huge deal, but it's more of a design change. You figure less mobile characters would have something in their moves to make up for their low speed/large size. But instead what's usually done is they get strong moves and then those strong moves also have extra lag, defeating the point of having a strong move to compensate for general slowness. Upsmash change serves a few purposes- it now works as a low percent combo tool, and if you can hit it on shield, it has adequate advantage to beat WD punish attempts and adequate pushback to beat most grab attempts. It should also beat most shield drop attempts I think unless the opponent has good drifting or long reaching aerials. I feel that a move with such awkward hitbox placement should be more rewarding than [only kill with this move]; my changes make it good at low percents and on shield, too.

 

[Deleted member]

imagine if people told lunchables they wanted ROB to be buffed.

that's how I'd feel.

I've had so many people tell me that rob is fine

You have no god damn idea how many times I've had to resist going off right then and there. 3.5 rob killed my family.

 

[PlateProp]

I've had so many people tell me that rob is fine

You have no god damn idea how many times I've had to resist going off right then and there. 3.5 rob killed my family.

Random question, but is Pit supposed to have 4 frames of jumpsquat or 5 frames?

 

[Ripple]

I guess I was under the assumption that you were wanting to solve his glaring weakness of no approach and can't force approach.

imo fair buff wouldn't really to help that much. it'd be like ganon almost.

just gonna cross this out after more thought

and if we learned anything from bowser, its that frame 5 combo breakers don't alleviate the problem

 

[Kipcom]

Random question, but is Pit supposed to have 4 frames of jumpsquat or 5 frames?

5

 

[DrinkingFood]

I guess I was under the assumption that you were wanting to solve his glaring weakness of no approach and can't force approach.

imo fair buff wouldn't really to help that much. it'd be like ganon almost.

just gonna cross this out after more thought

and if we learned anything from bowser, its that frame 5 combo breakers don't alleviate the problem

what, bowser's nair is extremely good discouraging certain combos just by the nature of its armor. It's a bad example imo

 

[Ripple]

mmmmm.... I'm gonna have to disagree but oh well

 

[Chevy]

In pm you can just hold a

You mind elaborating? I could only reproduce the get up attack after jab reset once, which would at least anecdotally match it being frame perfect. Holding A does nothing for me.

 

[Kink-Link5]

How do people feel about EventScrub's tier list?

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/projectm/

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How do people feel about EventScrub's tier list?

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/projectm/

Does anyone here even frequent that site?

 

[CyberZixx]

It looks like has barely changed from the 3.0 days. totally invalid. I hope no one takes it seriously.

 

[Kipcom]

Uh, I'm pretty sure that tier list IS from 3.0 lmao.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Event Hubs is such a joke its hardly even funny. On a completely unrelated note I was happy to see some of those Squirtle placing's in the flood of real tier lists awhile back. Which of those would you guys say is the best?

 

[Warzenschwein]

I liked Ripple's tier list. Not perfect imho but I like it.

Spoiler

It's easy to agree with though since the characters aren't in order.

 

[eideeiit]

That Dedede salt shining through a bit

 

[Strong Badam]

If you're making a tier list with characters out of order within tiers, you should really put them in alphabetical order or something like that so it's immediately obvious imo.

 

[Warzenschwein]

As if Wario being top of A tier doesn't give it away.

 

[Ripple]

or people could just quote the whole post where I explicitly say its not in order.

 

[The_NZA]

You mind elaborating? I could only reproduce the get up attack after jab reset once, which would at least anecdotally match it being frame perfect. Holding A does nothing for me.

I guess i was told this second hand--that holding left/right/A buffers in teh input. I haven't put it into practice myself. You might be right.

 

[Warzenschwein]

What's with Mario anyway, no A-Tier? I thought he's still in a very good spot.

 

[Narelex]

Honestly I feel like we should have less divisions in the tier list, 4-5 categories makes more sense to me considering the smaller differences between character strengths as opposed to Melee. A lot of characters would be in the A-B tier IMO.

With a few outliers in the higher and lower divisions of course.

 

[Oracle]

frame 5 "combo breaker", with frame 45 iasa, less than zero disjoint, and 13 frames landing animation on the easiest character to combo in the game is "broken"

sometimes I question whether or not I'm playing the same game as everyone else

I guess i'll elaborate to explain why this further pushes bowser into the 'polarizing' category of characters.

So for rob to continue a lot of his combos, he has to jump super high into the air and go for a fair/upair or w/e. Bowser can simply react to this and nair, and rob can't do anything about it. Because of the way rob functions needing his jump/double jump to extend combos, as well as his floatiness, rob simply can't bait bowser into doing the nair. There are no visually ambiguous situations where i could make it seem like I was going to follow up, then wait out the nair, because any situation where ROB is close enough to follow up, if bowser Nair's he has no way to avoid it. This makes robs combos just not work 90% of the time on bowser.

Now compare this to falcon, or falco, or really any fast faller with a good combo/juggle game. They don't even care that the nair has armor, because they have enough combos that are so tight that bowser doesn't even have an opportunity to nair out for the trade, and in the juggle situations they have good enough ground speed to actually bait bowser into nairing and dashdance away for the punish, or good enough fastfalls to empty hop/empty jump, then fastfall to avoid the nair and punish.

By giving bowser a tool like this and expecting him to rely on it, he just becomes obnoxiously difficult to play against for 30% of the cast, and is literal trash vs the other 70%. Making characters with no even matchups, and only very good/horrible matchups is pretty clearly not something the DT is aiming for. Any logic you could use to support bowser having the combo breaker nair could also be used to support zelda's 3.02 nB, which, for those of you blessed enough to have never played against 3.02 zelda, was intangible and auto-canceled. Some characters just couldn't combo zelda, period, whereas other onese like roy/marth/falcon could just play as if the nair weren't there, which further pushed zelda into the 'polarized' category.

What bowser needs is ground tools good enough to justify his terrible combo weight. imo bowser should be mostly focused around edgeguarding, since that's his best aspect already. stuff like moves/throws with higher base knockback to better set up for earlier edgeguarding. not sure what in particular but you get the idea

 

[Electric Tuba]

Whole thing was good/accurate, but I want to point out something about Bowser's edgeguarding. Bowser doesn't need more ways to edgeguard: it's already godlike and many characters can have all their options covered consistently and easily by Bowser's edgeguarding arsenal. Getting them off the stage is the big issue.

Talking about how Bowser gets kills brings up another issue: should they all come from edgeguarding? If not, this next bit is a problem:

One of the big complaints from Bowser mains this patch is that his kill moves don't kill at levels they feel like they should. When somebody lands a forward smash, everyone within fifteen feet cringes a little and assumes the other character instantly dies.
Unfortunately, the actual power level of that move is much lower, and the stats just don't live up to the power of the animation. It'd really help the feel of bowser and make him much more enjoyable/satisfying if either power or animations were adjusted to make sense with each other (preferably power...).

 

[Oracle]

ETuba thats what i mean; bowser already has some of the best edgeguards in the game i just want to see better ways to set them up from neutral, ie higher base kb throws/attacks. Kill moves are another story, wasnt fsmashed nerfed or something like that?

 

[Ripple]

F-smash Knockback growth was nerfed from 100 > 70.

does 6% more damage than Ike's f-smash and now kills later than it

 

[DrinkingFood]

I guess i'll elaborate to explain why this further pushes bowser into the 'polarizing' category of characters.

So for rob to continue a lot of his combos, he has to jump super high into the air and go for a fair/upair or w/e. Bowser can simply react to this and nair, and rob can't do anything about it. Because of the way rob functions needing his jump/double jump to extend combos, as well as his floatiness, rob simply can't bait bowser into doing the nair. There are no visually ambiguous situations where i could make it seem like I was going to follow up, then wait out the nair, because any situation where ROB is close enough to follow up, if bowser Nair's he has no way to avoid it. This makes robs combos just not work 90% of the time on bowser.

Now compare this to falcon, or falco, or really any fast faller with a good combo/juggle game. They don't even care that the nair has armor, because they have enough combos that are so tight that bowser doesn't even have an opportunity to nair out for the trade, and in the juggle situations they have good enough ground speed to actually bait bowser into nairing and dashdance away for the punish, or good enough fastfalls to empty hop/empty jump, then fastfall to avoid the nair and punish.

By giving bowser a tool like this and expecting him to rely on it, he just becomes obnoxiously difficult to play against for 30% of the cast, and is literal trash vs the other 70%. Making characters with no even matchups, and only very good/horrible matchups is pretty clearly not something the DT is aiming for. Any logic you could use to support bowser having the combo breaker nair could also be used to support zelda's 3.02 nB, which, for those of you blessed enough to have never played against 3.02 zelda, was intangible and auto-canceled. Some characters just couldn't combo zelda, period, whereas other onese like roy/marth/falcon could just play as if the nair weren't there, which further pushed zelda into the 'polarized' category.

What bowser needs is ground tools good enough to justify his terrible combo weight. imo bowser should be mostly focused around edgeguarding, since that's his best aspect already. stuff like moves/throws with higher base knockback to better set up for earlier edgeguarding. not sure what in particular but you get the idea

Oracle your punish game is sub par imo, you do weird things for combos that don't lead back into dthrow lol
why upair bowser when you can just dthrow->dthrow->dthrow->aerial->if DI in/no DI, fair carry into edgeguard; else regrab->dthrow->aerial->edgeguard?
Also, if you have to double jump at bowser to get the up-air, he's high enough that his nair won't hit you if you just full hop at him, then FF, that will bait out the nair lol. Up air also has enough disjoint on the front to be safe even if he armors it lol. Are the vids up from w/e event where you and Odds played?

 

[Zigludo]

Are the vids up from w/e event where you and Odds played?

I think it was the latest I&B