Tier List Speculation

[Mr.Pickle]

Maybe it's time to revisit that fireball build that was proposed eons ago.

 

[FreeGamer]

The day Bowser becomes a good character is the day everyone quits PM. Kappa

 

[Chevy]

Even I shield drop, and I suck.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser may do well vs rob but its pretty much only because of 2 moves, and 70% of the cast just doesnt care about those two moves (nair/nb). Still sucks.

I was mostly salty about how much everybody complained about rob mitigating positional advantage when bowser has an armored combo breaker and the best landing move in the game and somehow thats oki guess? Didnt help that i have the flu, makes it pretty difficult to win those hard matchups. Was mostly impressed with odds movement and shield dropping (what kind of pm player shield drops? This isnt even melee)

I would really like to see armor taken off nair and flame cancel removed, and buffs to make bowser a real character instead of 2 broken moves glued on to a bowser plushie

You sound salty at those two moves, well what do you suggest goes over nair and flame then? Give me a fire roar or fire ball from sm4sh (and make them consume projectiles) and ill happily take the flame cancel removal

 

[Oracle]

I really just think nair shouldn't have armor and flame cancel shouldn't be in the game. If you keep flame cancel to make it not broken you would have to nerf the fire/bite to the point of uselessness, it's always just going to end up being polarizing and way too powerful vs the handful of characters that can't deal with it. I would look at making his normals better first, rather than trying to tack on a gimmicky option like a fireball that runs a large risk of either being terrible or still being polarizing.

The real question is why can't bowser throw hammers like in the original super mario

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Flame Cancel still has a ton of lag and is very punishble, I don't think you have played enough against a strong Bowser to be able to damn and veto his options.

 

[AceGamer]

I don't think Bowsers thrown hammers ever since those days so that's probably why lol

 

[Draco_The]

Well, Dry Bowser throws bones in New Super Mario Bros.

Maybe Bowser could throw hammers and Dry Bowser bones kinda like Mario throwing fireballs and Doc throwing pills.

 

[Ripple]

Flame Cancel still has a ton of lag and is very punishble, I don't think you have played enough against a strong Bowser to be able to damn and veto his options.

if flame breath touches you on the ground its absolutely unpunishable thanks to the super buff not in the change log. aka, you don't get knocked airborne. which means SDI up is literally impossible.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

if flame breath touches you on the ground its absolutely unpunishable thanks to the super buff not in the change log. aka, you don't get knocked airborne. which means SDI up is literally impossible.

And if Fox's shine touches you on the ground it is absolutely unpunishible.

Are you trying to suggest moves should be punishable on hit!? Lol I would expect better from you Ripple.

 

[Ripple]

most moves ARE punishable on hit.... have you never crouch cancelled something?

and I was actually just correcting you. and In no way did I advocate anything at all

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Calling a CC a successful hit is something I wasn't thinking about, honestly I think Flame cancel his not bad for the game, It doesn't give Bowser a free landing since it has a bunch of lag when not cancelled, thus you have already let Bowser land if he flame cancels you. It is a nice coverage option, poke, and mixup for Bowser and is in no way broken.

 

[FreeGamer]

crouch canceling is a bad mechanic and you should feel bad

 

[CyberZixx]

CC is a terrible mechanics design wise but getting rid of it would probably totally mess up balance. Actually it would be neat to mess around with. Playing Roy with no CC threat, uhh so good.

 

[Zigludo]

Bowser may do well vs rob but its pretty much only because of 2 moves, and 70% of the cast just doesnt care about those two moves (nair/nb). Still sucks.

I was mostly salty about how much everybody complained about rob mitigating positional advantage when bowser has an armored combo breaker and the best landing move in the game and somehow thats oki guess? Didnt help that i have the flu, makes it pretty difficult to win those hard matchups. Was mostly impressed with odds movement and shield dropping (what kind of pm player shield drops? This isnt even melee)

I would really like to see armor taken off nair and flame cancel removed, and buffs to make bowser a real character instead of 2 broken moves glued on to a bowser plushie

frame 5 "combo breaker", with frame 45 iasa, less than zero disjoint, and 13 frames landing animation on the easiest character to combo in the game is "broken"

sometimes I question whether or not I'm playing the same game as everyone else

 

[Ripple]

CC is a terrible mechanics design wise but getting rid of it would probably totally mess up balance. Actually it would be neat to mess around with. Playing Roy with no CC threat, uhh so good.

roy beats CC easily anyway though

 

[CyberZixx]

Yeah, that is true. Maybe not best example of what no CC would do, but I play him so came to mind. Our Dtilt is solid against it and of course our grab. Just a shame that DeD is soo CCable but at least the third hit strings break it if they don't grab you.

 

[The_NZA]

Am I the only one who thinks CC is an awesome mechanic that, similar to Diable combos changes the dynamics of the game based on %s, is an inteligent choice offered to the user that trades mobility and risky DI angles for knock back benefit, and allows the game to strike a healthy balance between combos and smash 64?

People hate crouch cancelling and i'm just like...why hate that when you can hate get up attack responding to jab reset :D. When I jab reset someone, I'm always so sad when they do something I can't possibly react to .

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Am I the only one who thinks CC is an awesome mechanic that, similar to Diable combos changes the dynamics of the game based on %s, is an inteligent choice offered to the user that trades mobility and risky DI angles for knock back benefit, and allows the game to strike a healthy balance between combos and smash 64?

People hate crouch cancelling and i'm just like...why hate that when you can hate get up attack responding to jab reset :D. When I jab reset someone, I'm always so sad when they do something I can't possibly react to .

That's kinda the purpose of the get up attack...
I'll also side with the anti-CC committee. (Hypocritically, I use it a lot since it's there) Just block

 

[PlateProp]

CC isint inherently bad, but there are some characters who get more mileage out of it than I feel like they should such as Roy and 3.6b MK

 

[Binary Clone]

People hate crouch cancelling and i'm just like...why hate that when you can hate get up attack responding to jab reset :D. When I jab reset someone, I'm always so sad when they do something I can't possibly react to .

Can't you only do that above a certain percent?

 

[Zigludo]

Can't you only do that above a certain percent?

no but it's a frame perfect input. at least, in Melee it was

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why is a Roy player complaining about CC?

Yeah, remove CC. As an Ike player who literally has to grab people to knock them up off they're CC'ing asses, I would appreciate it

Not serious though, I agree with NZA, it's not a terrible mechanic and I don't get the hate.

 

[CyberZixx]

I'm complaining because I feel it's poor game design, regardless of my character.

 

[Electric Tuba]

It would be great if flame cancel didn't make the game stop for a minute when it connects, but Bowser's neutral is not exactly in great shape right now. As dumb as it is, it's pretty important for letting Bowser actually have some response about dash dance and disjoint. If Bowser gets something to help, then it wouldn't be a problem if flame cancel is removed. Though fire is good, canonically...

That said, at best you get like 10% and if it misses that's a free punish for most characters..

 

[Ripple]

how to solve 1of the many big fatty problems. Give them some sort of strong disjoint that is transcendent.

it actually promotes aggression from opponents and stops projectile spam that fatties can't handle

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Am I the only one who thinks CC is an awesome mechanic that, similar to Diable combos changes the dynamics of the game based on %s, is an inteligent choice offered to the user that trades mobility and risky DI angles for knock back benefit, and allows the game to strike a healthy balance between combos and smash 64?

People hate crouch cancelling and i'm just like...why hate that when you can hate get up attack responding to jab reset :D. When I jab reset someone, I'm always so sad when they do something I can't possibly react to .

That is literally the first non-joking positive response in favor of crouch cancelling. Most people find the idea of ddd eating a diddy forward smash at 164% and only sliding silly, or luigi eating a game and watch up smash at 95% and not being anywhere close to death odd. Keep in mind these are not even characters that abuse cc to the extent roy, samus, and others do.

Also I know I am late to this, but found it extremely weird diddy was somehow on the s tier list in some of these post. Has anyone tried using a character like samus? Diddy has the worst vertical kill moves in the entire roster, and being great at combos is kind of negated by how fast she breaks out combined with the strongest kill options either having a poor killing angle or moderate knockback. (Completely capable character just obvious flaws combined with an easy to combo weight makes him balanced.)

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

how to solve 1of the many big fatty problems. Give them some sort of strong disjoint that is transcendent.

it actually promotes aggression from opponents and stops projectile spam that fatties can't handle

If someone has strong transcendent disjoint, wouldn't that promote more projectile spam to keep them out of poking range?

Also heard the first decent logic behind the DDD dair nerf stating that it was an overall design "direction" change to make low commitment multihitting moves have less reward. See Mario dair, link up smash, zss up smash, diddy up smash(at the time) etc. Though I still think it should at least have higher bkb to not get punished on hit, but at least there was a train of thought behind it if true.

 

[4tlas]

Am I the only one who thinks CC is an awesome mechanic that, similar to Diable combos changes the dynamics of the game based on %s, is an inteligent choice offered to the user that trades mobility and risky DI angles for knock back benefit, and allows the game to strike a healthy balance between combos and smash 64?

I think Crouch Cancelling is a great mechanic for the reasons you stated. It might be overtuned, though.

 

[CORY]

Also heard the first decent logic behind the DDD dair nerf stating that it was an overall design "direction" change to make low commitment multihitting moves have less reward. See Mario dair,

not quite sure they've hit that point with this one yet... >.>

I think Crouch Cancelling is a great mechanic for the reasons you stated. It might be overtuned, though.

what if it was a flat reduction (with some sort of floor to it) rather than 2/3 off the total? i'm sure there's something i'm not thinking or aware of that can go terribly wrong with this plan, though...

 

[MLGF]

CC is dumb, the the game at this point has built around it enough that I can't whine

Still dumb though

 

[The_NZA]

That's kinda the purpose of the get up attack...
I'll also side with the anti-CC committee. (Hypocritically, I use it a lot since it's there) Just block

I like get up attack when you miss a tech because it's very reactable. After a jab reset, it's insanely fast and something you have to you predict and guess on in what is one of the few earned opportunities to use a high startup move with a somewhat high success rate.

no but it's a frame perfect input. at least, in Melee it was

In pm you can just hold a

 

[Draco_The]

Moves being unsafe on hit just doesn't make any sense. That should be enough reason to get rid or at least rework CC.

 

[Ripple]

not quite sure they've hit that point with this one yet... >.>..

are you saying dair wasn't nerfed enough?

 

[CORY]

are you saying dair wasn't nerfed enough?

for mario. it feels silly to me, still, but i'm also a relatively large target so it could very well just be salt.

 

[The_NZA]

That is literally the first non-joking positive response in favor of crouch cancelling.

That you've read. There was actually a reddit thread about CCing from 10 months or a year ago where ripple myself and maybe DF all laid out the positives and negatives of CC's design. I think people often forget the drawbacks of CC. Wish I could find that thread now.

 

[Ripple]

for mario. it feels silly to me, still, but i'm also a relatively large target so it could very well just be salt.

I thought you were talking about DDD and I was about to quit smashboards forever

 

[CORY]

I thought you were talking about DDD and I was about to quit smashboards forever

oh, is that all it takes?

 

[Ripple]

imagine if people told lunchables they wanted ROB to be buffed.

that's how I'd feel.

 

[Shokio]

Most people generally agree that it's a great mechanic. It's just a little too good at what it does right now.