Tier List Speculation

[Electric Tuba]

Armor should only exist if there are moves for each character with armor breaking properties. Armor breaks the RPS rules and that's reason enough for it to be removed. This isn't like SFIV where every Character has access to armor and armor breaking moves.

Every character has armor breaking moves. It's knockback based.

Besides, smash is a little more than RPS. The game doesn't have to be as simple as Shield beats Attack beats Grab beats Shield... even though armor is effectively shield in this comparison.

 

[Life]

Simple reminder that armor has existed in Smash since the very beginning. Thank your friendly neighborhood green dinosaur.

 

[mimgrim]

@ DrinkingFood everything you just wrote is so correct holy ****. if I hear one more tink or link saying they have a terrible recovery I swear

There are Tink players that say they have a horrible recovery as Tink? Like I use to get told quite a bit that Tink had a bad recovery by players I played against when I used Tink and I just shake my head and be like whatever dude. AGT boosts his recovery to really good potential and alone makes it pretty good. I rarely ever use tether for recovery (only once in a while do I use it to keep my opponent on their toes) and I've never really used his wall jump either, but then again I rarely ever get the chance to it. His recovery is pretty ****ing good and only certain characters are able to abuse it effectively, at least from my experience.

 

[Ripple]

-snip-

taken from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3d1ntl/the_reasoning_behind_the_dedede_nerfs_in_36/

WTF IS THIS ****?! WHO THE **** IS IN CHARGE OF DDD IN THE DT? THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO TRUE!

I'm beyond mad

 

[zman804]

-snip-

taken from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3d1ntl/the_reasoning_behind_the_dedede_nerfs_in_36/

WTF IS THIS ****?! WHO THE **** IS IN CHARGE OF DDD IN THE DT? THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO TRUE!

I'm beyond mad

what. do they mean like, DDD's dair let him combo break? What? Huh?

 

[DrinkingFood]

They may have meant that DJ->dair gives him huge quick lingering disjoint below him with low commitment

 

[Gallo69]

OBViouslyy you allll community btttthole just ignore the fact FACKT FAKT that NY is was and WILL forever be the best at this game. SPRRRRRY to let youuu knowwww,,, BUT! FS has never lsottt a crew battle. AND WE HAVE VMANCE VANZ JADEN. THE GOAT OF PM. ANYway, we havent lost yet SO COME OUT YALLL whenEVER we get our new nebulous back. SEAGULL HO came and got rekt by froz, PROF HO came and got rekt by ME. ELI is the goat, GURU rekt hax, axe,, cruz,, and whoever else he wantfs when ahe feels like it cuz hes the ****kkin best, . Anyway, love you guys <3 come through and beat us if u got someeeethin to say. OH AND WE'LL BE AT PATRAGONQ!!!! paragone paragon,... ALsooo SO WE on topic. My tier list = mario and falco the goats and ev1 else sucks.. SO SUCK IT. Ight we out

Oh and Zhiwmre is also the best Zhime. He beat mad mofos tooo

 

[Zigludo]

He's saying that the person on the ledge hangs there and reacts to the projectile, not the tetherer reacting to the ledge refresh and tethering.

yeah. and I'm saying I think tink and link can get close enough that the bomb chuck is not reactable without ceding ledge

 

[Narelex]

MK feels extremely solid this patch. Not really sure exactly where he lies, but its definitely not near the bottom.

 

[G13_Flux]

I feel like it would have been a better design to add 3 frames of end lag (aerial not grounded) onto ddds dair instead of startup, if they really feel they had to Nerf something. I don't believe that they accomplished what they intended. I still think he a very effective character in most regards, but I will admit that i don't quite understand why they felt the need to hand him a couple nerfs without fixing other moves/qualities that actually should really be addressed and aren't random. They're almost there with DDD. Just fix his jumpsquat/landing lag, alter the redesign of dair (maybe not revert it per se, but find a better middle ground), and improve grounded up b utility and I'll honestly be totally happy. and fix inhale. If this requires a slight addition of aerial end lag on some moves, id be willing to take that at the expense of fluid movement (instead of clunkiness), and a better OOS dynamic.

Mk does feel amazing this patch. I honestly think he's a great contender for high tier. The weight increase was key, and when coupled with the other tweaks that generally improved his ability to make quality punishes, its pretty big.

 

[Strong Badam]

MK feels extremely solid this patch. Not really sure exactly where he lies, but its definitely not near the bottom.

Ez top 10 imo

 

[LupinX]

What do you think about Lucario this patch? I feel that he was over-nerfed in terms of his punish game

 

[Frost | Odds]

Gonna make a fairly biased speculative tier list (and probably edit it 40 times immediately after posting), if only for my personal reference while on Salt Mines tonight. Characters are in order - left is better; but that doesn't mean I'm right about it or that I have any business ordering them that finely.

SSS:
SS:
S:
A+:
A:
B:
C:
D:
D-:
F:n/a
F-:


Misc. Justifications:

- CF has always been extremely dumb. The lack of other dumb stuff will make him shine (heh) more than ever.
- Ike is one of the few characters that does well against spacies - he can also wall out floaties, catch up to fast runners, edgeguard the hell out of anyone, and is extremely difficult to edgeguard for many characters. I don't think Ike has many, if any, significantly losing MUs - that disjoint and speed is really insane.
- ROB is still stupid good, just a bit less stupid now.
- Ditto with Roy, far as I can tell
- Mario still ridiculous. Tools for every situation, fireballs are still nuts, has tons of kill setups and solid edgeguards, and his dair still beats basically every move.
- MK is fastgoodstuff on a stick
- Yoshi still isn't unlocked. I'm working on it, slowly.
- How much was Lucario actually nerfed?
- M2 also not yet unlocked.
- Marth is Marth
- As everyone else gets worse, the Year of Luigi cycles back around again. Also it's becoming more and more clear how hard it is to punish and edgeguard him, especially with respect to how well he does those things to everyone else.
- Snake buffs wow holy crap
- I know SB disagrees, but I still think GnW is very strong. He's extremely tough for a lot of chars to deal with still, and a 3 frame upB that gets you out of combos and combos into other things of your own is still completely insane.
- Pit feels cool. A tier is basically "I hope these guys are as strong as they feel" tier.
- Yeah, I overrated Ganon before. Big characters are flawed.
- I'd need to talk a bunch to Boiko to get a better feel for Ness's placement, but he seems stronger to me than before - and with a proper control setup, he's not as bad as everyone thinks.
- Ivy is a bit better, but still furiously mediocre imo.
- Is Link actually this bad? Tough to say.
- Big characters are still kinda awful. Bowser is worse. Squirtle is so, so far from being unlocked that he still may as well not exist - though I do believe the potential is there.

 

[LupinX]

- How much was Lucario actually nerfed?

He basically got the same treatment as Snake 3.02 to 3.5. He will probably get a buffed after the beta (just ASC though)

 

[Idostuff]

@ Frost | Odds I just don't see Ike being quite as good as you say. He doesn't beat spacies as bad as you seem to believe. His worst MUs are probably Falco and Wolf, so much so that VanZ picked up Falco just for the purpose of beating DJ Nintendo. Lasers completely shut down everything Ike has, including interrupting his QD charge offstage which effectively kills ike. Ike wd oos isnt really good enough like Roy and Marth to use that as an effective approach either. Ike might have a decent time with Fox, but he gets crushed by the other 2 spacies

 

[TheGravyTrain]

That list seems pretty solid. Its very hard for me not to do the typical "but this character is good because of this", especially since most the characters I like/test for/think about are more towards the bottom (Squirtle main ftw). I won't do that because its so useless. I agree with what you said about Squirtle. Its a waste of time to look too far into the future by putting characters way higher than their results would let them just because you have a feeling. Wait until a Squirtle goes on a tear and showcases his potential. You could argue that Dirtboy's recent results might allow you to put him a bit higher then that, but that portion of the tier list is so up for grabs it doesn't matter imo.

I question Yoshi being quite that high though. If it was last patch maybe, but I just think pivot grab is just so much worse. Thats probably me just having a personal vandetta towards how tethers (offstage and for grabs) are treated (why can't they be a good thing to have instead of almost always a bad thing?).

 

[Leafeon]

Gonna make a fairly biased speculative tier list (and probably edit it 40 times immediately after posting), if only for my personal reference while on Salt Mines tonight. Characters are in order - left is better; but that doesn't mean I'm right about it or that I have any business ordering them that finely.

SSS:
SS:
S:
A+:
A:
B:
C:
D:
D-:
F:n/a
F-:


Misc. Justifications:

- CF has always been extremely dumb. The lack of other dumb stuff will make him shine (heh) more than ever.
- Ike is one of the few characters that does well against spacies - he can also wall out floaties, catch up to fast runners, edgeguard the hell out of anyone, and is extremely difficult to edgeguard for many characters. I don't think Ike has many, if any, significantly losing MUs - that disjoint and speed is really insane.
- ROB is still stupid good, just a bit less stupid now.
- Ditto with Roy, far as I can tell
- Mario still ridiculous. Tools for every situation, fireballs are still nuts, has tons of kill setups and solid edgeguards, and his dair still beats basically every move.
- MK is fastgoodstuff on a stick
- Yoshi still isn't unlocked. I'm working on it, slowly.
- How much was Lucario actually nerfed?
- M2 also not yet unlocked.
- Marth is Marth
- As everyone else gets worse, the Year of Luigi cycles back around again. Also it's becoming more and more clear how hard it is to punish and edgeguard him, especially with respect to how well he does those things to everyone else.
- Snake buffs wow holy crap
- I know SB disagrees, but I still think GnW is very strong. He's extremely tough for a lot of chars to deal with still, and a 3 frame upB that gets you out of combos and combos into other things of your own is still completely insane.
- Pit feels cool. A tier is basically "I hope these guys are as strong as they feel" tier.
- Yeah, I overrated Ganon before. Big characters are flawed.
- I'd need to talk a bunch to Boiko to get a better feel for Ness's placement, but he seems stronger to me than before - and with a proper control setup, he's not as bad as everyone thinks.
- Ivy is a bit better, but still furiously mediocre imo.
- Is Link actually this bad? Tough to say.
- Big characters are still kinda awful. Bowser is worse. Squirtle is so, so far from being unlocked that he still may as well not exist - though I do believe the potential is there.

I know that Pikachu has those tiny limbs for range, but what else makes him lower than ivysaur and ganon?

 

[didds]

Well people don't play him much and he has to think a little bit to get kills. Those reasons are usually enough to make you bottom ten around here.

edit: oh and being stubby, being stubby hurts your placement too unless you've got like a sword or something

 

[Juushichi]

or people just forget that the character isn't bad until anther destroys enough people

 

[InfinityCollision]

Quick things that jump out at me:

-Ike is ~one tier too high.
-Lucas is too low. Two tiers? I don't know. He's good.
-Pikachu is way too low. Secret goodness tier, seriously.

 

[Boiko]

Mario doesn't feel that good to me. He has a lack of reliable kill set ups on a big portion of the cast, as everything is pretty predictable and DI-able. Most characters can DI and escape down throw>fair. DI away on dtilt prevents fair follow up. As Ness, I just nair through fireballs and hit Mario. Idk, never really had a huge problem with them. Dair is definitely very good. His dsmash isn't too strong anymore (3.5?) so CC dsmash is a lot less threatening. You can DI his uairs down and away like Falcon's to end his combos pretty early. I'm playing with Gallo tonight for the first time since 3.6b dropped so maybe I'll feel differently.

I know Falcon is good, but considering how hard he loses to spacies, MK, Sheik, and a few others, I find it hard to put him THAT high. Anyone who can limit his ground game or put out a lingering disjointed hitbox gives him a decently hard time.

My main training partner is a Lucas players and we're convinced that Lucas is somewhere in the top 10, MAYBE top 15. Really strong combos, pressure, a decent projectile, and of course, great early kill conversions. However, I think Lucas suffers from a bit of Marth syndrome. When he gets a character around 110%+, it's a lot harder for him to kill. Down throw with DI away>DACUS stops working, Down throw with DI in>Up smash stops working, Down throw with no DI>bair stops working, dair>usmash stops working, up throw won't kill until later. Outside that, he doesn't have many killing moves. Fair is okay, bair is slow and hard to hit with to get the kill hitbox, smash attacks are smash attacks, and his f tilt won't really kill unless you're being edge guarded. He still has good kill options, and he has the ability to rack up damage so any of these moves WILL kill, but if he can't kill early, it gets a bit harder. Marth has this problem as well, but he's still a good character though, I'm just emulating it here.

As far as Ness goes, it's interesting, and somewhat hard to say. I'm thinking A LOT when I play. I need to be very aware of what my opponent is trying to do, put myself into a position to punish it, and then punish. From that point, it's a matter of taking each extension very far. I keep pressure on my opponent with lingering hitboxes, magnets behind their shield, and PK Fire. Ness has great retreating options like up tilt and reverse nairs (moonwalk input into nair and he'll nair across the ground going backwards), his up tilts is pretty disjointed and acts like Fox's, so it's very good. Of course his combo game is dumb good, unless your SDI is on point, and I personally have a ton of answers for varying levels of SDI. Ness' biggest weaknesses are in his approaches and his recovery. I have super weird recoveries, and people often tell me after my sets that they "have no idea what you're doing with your recovery" so I don't have a huge problem with it. As far as getting in, that can be difficult. It's a big bait and punish game, and if they're not taking the bait, you sometimes have to overcommit, which can be bad. I think Ness is a really solid character, hard to place him in a tier, but I would but him around some of the A tier characters on your list. I think he's much better than Ganon and pretty much everyone below him, and a few above him. He has some really tough match ups with good characters, which comes into play pretty often and can hinder him. This is what I think his MU chart looks like and I would be happy to elaborate on any of them:

Spoiler

35:65:
40:60
45:55
50:50
55:45
60:40
65:35 (this got a lot easier in 3.6, lol, sorry Odds)

Overall, his match up spread is pretty even IMO, and there's not much that he loses drastically. Unfortunately, the two that he has a pretty hard time with are common characters. If G&W gets a few nerfs, specifically to upb, and a few of his tilts, this will probably be even. Falcon is considered hard by a lot of Ness, mains, some even consider it close to impossible, but idk, I think it's pretty easy, LOL. Same goes for Zelda. A lot of Ness mains complain about her basically being immune to fire, combos, and outranging us, but she's super laggy and Ness can still punish her really hard. I understand why people think Samus is very difficult also, I used to as well. In fact, I even used Samus against Stereo in tournament once. But playing it a lot more, I actually think it's closer to 45:55, or even 50:50. IC's you need to play dumb aggressive and they can be super frustrating to get in on. I'd really rather just play Samus. I feel like people would contend my placement of Yoshi, but it's really kind of easy. I've played Raptor when Yoshi was stronger than he is now, Zubat, and Deff, all qualified players. I think the MU is just kind of bad for the Dinosaur.

Anyway, as you can see, Ness has a pretty decent spread, but he loses to more relevant characters than the ones he wins against. Regardless, Nothing feels unwinnable.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

To help mitigate the killing struggle Lucas can almost always (?) magnet into immediate dair and tech chase for the kill. I wanna test magnet into strong bair and see how reliable that is. Basically copy shine bair from Falco onto Lucas for Dair/Nair/and a bit of bair. Thats for percents where mag doesn't combo into anything else.

*edit* Also, his Marth syndrome isn't as bad as Marth's because his kill throw is at a much more relevant percent than any of Marth's high percent kill options. Its still noticeable, but not as bad.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds I just don't see Ike being quite as good as you say. He doesn't beat spacies as bad as you seem to believe. His worst MUs are probably Falco and Wolf, so much so that VanZ picked up Falco just for the purpose of beating DJ Nintendo. Lasers completely shut down everything Ike has, including interrupting his QD charge offstage which effectively kills ike. Ike wd oos isnt really good enough like Roy and Marth to use that as an effective approach either. Ike might have a decent time with Fox, but he gets crushed by the other 2 spacies

Damn, really? I confess ignorance, then. It's not that I think he beats spacies (let's be real here, pretty much nobody beats Fox or Wolf), but he seems to do pretty alright against them with an optimized punish game. I'm unconvinced that lasers cripple Ike much more than they do Marth, who is also very strong against those characters. Nonetheless, you may be right - I'll probably move him down slightly.

@ TheGravyTrain Yoshi still not unlocked - nobody prominent (dw I see you didds) is doing DJL or other important tech with Yoshi, much less properly implementing it into high-level play. The pivot grab nerf should be 100% irrelevant, because you shouldn't be using pivot grab in situations where it can miss. Dsmash out of dashdance and shield is *insanely* strong, as is his punish game when you master traveling and rising DJC aerials. When I die as Yoshi, I'm almost always instantly able to identify exactly where I messed up: I never feel limited by the character in the slightest; totally unlike Bowser.

@ Boiko

1. Never apologize for rating a Bowser matchup poorly in this patch. The more people aware / in agreement of how badly he needs help, the better.
2. You can retreating DJC nair (and all other aerials, for that matter) without moonwalk - just requires optimized controls.
3. That sounds pretty reasonable re: Ness and Lucas placements. I'll move them up on next iteration.

@ Juushichi @ InfinityCollision @ Leafeon @ didds you all seem pretty convinced that Pikachu is very strong. Do you not feel that he suffers badly from stubby arm syndrome, having 3 mostly useless special moves, and having a nearly impossible-to-master upB? I'm open to being convinced, but I just don't see it at this point.

 

[Juushichi]

I would probably argue that 3.6 Sheik vs Ness is closer to 6-4 or maybe even around 55-45, but I know you have Jaden up there sooo

as far as pikachu goes, he can *still* gimp most of the cast, because of nerfs and fixes to his throws he converts strongly on FFers. His big weaknesses really seem to be floaties and some awkward mu's with midweights. I think that Pikachu has the ability to KO a lot of characters with bair, upsmash, nair, edgeguards and some QoL things that improved his damage output on the ground.

The two Pikachu players that I see the most, Anther and Shenanagans_ have great control over their Up-Bs so I don't really see that nearly impossible to control thing. I'm considering using Pika (I have been casually playing Chu for at least 4 versions) for certain MUs as well.

I don't think he's amazing, but I think he's probably ~20ish. Definitely not towards the bottom of the cast.

 

[Leafeon]

Mario doesn't feel that good to me. He has a lack of reliable kill set ups on a big portion of the cast, as everything is pretty predictable and DI-able.
[/spoiler]

err.... whaa...?

@ Leafeon you all seem pretty convinced that Pikachu is very strong. Do you not feel that he suffers badly from stubby arm syndrome, having 3 mostly useless special moves, and having a nearly impossible-to-master upB? I'm open to being convinced, but I just don't see it at this point.

I don't think he suffers from the stubbiness so much that he's in the same tier as zelda, ivy, or kirby.

 

[Boiko]

@ Frost | Odds Regarding retreating aerials. Yeah, I know. It's pretty tricky to hit it with nair consistently. I seem to get it every time if I do the moonwalk motion for some reason. And Ness' moonwalk only works if he does a full distance WD first so it doesn't really change much, but yeah, doesn't really matter, lol.

@ Juushichi I actually think the Sheik MU got harder with the throw change. That's not even the worst part of the MU though.

@ Leafeon What are Mario's kill set ups? Down throw>fair? Di slightly behind and jump/aerial/air dodge, works for a big part of the cast. Dtilt>fair? DI the dtilt away. Uair strings into fair? DI the uair down and away. Jab>dsmash still works, but his down smash isn't going to be netting him early kills. He has decent edge guarding with bair, but that requires him to get you off of the stage first. Everything that he has is DIable.

 

[mimgrim]

@ Juushichi @ InfinityCollision @ Leafeon @ didds you all seem pretty convinced that Pikachu is very strong. Do you not feel that he suffers badly from stubby arm syndrome, having 3 mostly useless special moves, and having a nearly impossible-to-master upB? I'm open to being convinced, but I just don't see it at this point.

Ok I know you can't be talking about Tjolt as one of his 3 useless. So that only leaves QA, HSB, and Thunder. I wouldn't really even come close to calling QA useless when QAC still exists (despite being on only the first burst it is still pretty good and usefull for the burst movement option on a character such as Pikachu. Thunder isn't a great move in neutral but is a pretty good as a trap move for people you have gotten high into the air.

And I get he has short range but mobility tends to have a tendency to make up for that and Pika is one of the more mobile characters in the game.

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, idk I think the only useless one is side B and that has more use than like Sheik's Side B.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Alright. Edited list. This look a bit closer to the truth to all y'all?

SSS:
SS:
S:
A+:
A:
B:
C:
D:
D-:
F:n/a
F-:

Did some minor tweaks after further thought. I still don't buy CF losing that badly to spacies, given how huge his buffs are in PM, and the fact that spacies have been nerfed, however slightly.

@ Boiko Trigger jump. C stick attack. That is all.

@ mimgrim @ Juushichi aren't tjolt and thunder super ultra situational?

EDIT: ninja'd Pikachu up a tier. B tier looks super empty but whatever.

 

[Leafeon]

Alright. Edited list. This look a bit closer to the truth to all y'all?

SSS:
SS:
S:
A+:
A:
B:
C:
D:
D-:
F:n/a
F-:

Did some minor tweaks after further thought. I still don't buy CF losing that badly to spacies, given how huge his buffs are in PM, and the fact that spacies have been nerfed, however slightly.

@ Boiko Trigger jump. C stick attack. That is all.

@ mimgrim @ Juushichi aren't tjolt and thunder super ultra situational?

upsmash combos into thunder, you better believe it. tjolt is good for limiting options in pika's already excellent edgeguarding kit. It also covers his own recoveries really well.

 

[didds]

you all seem pretty convinced that Pikachu is very strong. Do you not feel that he suffers badly from stubby arm syndrome, having 3 mostly useless special moves, and having a nearly impossible-to-master upB? I'm open to being convinced, but I just don't see it at this point.

I'm barely mediocre at this game and I can personally hit every upB angle Pikachu has to offer in this game. It's not the easiest recovery, but it is by no means nearly impossible to master. And once you can do it, your recovery is basically free as well as getting back on stage, as well as pika being one of the more threatening characters from ledge due to his ledge dash -> anything and quick attack cancel tricks. He has tons of options to choose from.

Side B is his only mostly useless special move and it can still boost pika's recovery. and swag factor edge guards

Down B is a vertical combo ender and has already been shown to be potent even with the lack of pikas out there.

Even thunder jolt isn't that bad unless you expect to be using it like a falco laser. It adds pressure during recovery and against recovering opponents and it's attached to one of the most mobile characters in the game while doing 10% damage. Pikachu can actually camp projectile-less characters and force them to approach. Being able to force an approach is huge as I'm sure a bowser main has realized.

And stubby arm syndrome can always be worked around if you are fast. Pika's DD game is stupid and the amound of horizontal momentum he can maintain in the air makes his range insane. Fair has disjoint and multi hits to counter cc, other stuff other stuff....

Like this guy has the tools to fight any character in the game without it becoming unreasonable.

Not to mention the importance of doing well against other good characters. Does well against every spacie compared to the rest of the cast, probably nothing below 45-55 against swords, I'd argue that pika maybe wins the falcon mu.

Pikachu is really hard though, like seriously, and when he's caught he can get punished pretty hard. He's like a top 20 character. Like those other 35 characters like seriously this is getting old cant we just agree this is impossible?

edit: woops slow reply but yea

 

[Juushichi]

utilt -> thunder is also a thing

also getting some lag shaved off of the first up b burst could only help

 

[mimgrim]

Tjolt was a already pretty good projectile that was both good for edgeguarding and onstage use in 3.5 that got buffed in 3.6 (now does a good clean 10% no matter if it hits you from the air or ground). It is pretty good as far as projectiles go. It might not be Laser tier but it is still a good harassment that is pretty safe for neutral.

Thunder is situational, but that doesn't make it bad or useless. Like I said it makes a pretty good trap tool for someone you have gotten high into the air.

Also I kinda think you have Tink a bit too low, only by a little bit, tbh (think he should be towards the bottom of A+ as a gatekeeper character of sorts.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ mimgrim yeah?

Also, totally forgot the tjolt damage buff. That's kinda significant.

 

[Draco_The]

If you guys want to make a proper tier list, I don't think saying "this character should be slightly higher" and such will make a good one.

 

[mimgrim]

@ mimgrim yeah?

It's just a case of despite Tink losing really bad to Spacies and Falcon (and maybe MK now as well) along with having some losing MUs against (but no where near as bad as the ones mentioned before) against like Marth or Sheik or Mario, and going even with a few others (like Roy, maybe Ike, or imo Diddy) he pretty much beats the rest of the cast (and most pretty solidly). He loses some very important MUs (some of them really badly) against popular characters to ever be top tier but also does too good against too many character to ever be below high tier (based on your structure I'd say you currently have him in upper mid) but he'll be towards the lower end of high tier serving as a type of gate keeper character, really.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't even know if it's kill setups that let Mario take stocks so much as really good gimp options + a few good ones (good being good, not great or phenomenal.)

Seriously, a Bair with the knockback his has + the angle it has is insane.

 

[Boiko]

I don't even know if it's kill setups that let Mario take stocks so much as really good gimp options + a few good ones (good being good, not great or phenomenal.)

Seriously, a Bair with the knockback his has + the angle it has is insane.

Maintain control of center stage and it's something you won't need to worry about nearly as much. But yes, you're right, his bair is great for edge guarding.

 

[G13_Flux]

i really cant see falcon being that high. theres too many characters within those first couple tiers that give him trouble, like roy, shiek, MK, and space animals. While the MU between the spacies and falcon may not be as bad as melee (it certainly is mutch better), they still fundamentally have an easier time shutting him down imo. once hes out of neutral, his defenses are terrible, whereas theirs are arguably a bit better. i might be more minimal, but he certainly doesnt beat them. at most, I can see him being in the S tier on your scale, just due to his relative MUs with other high tier characters, even though he has great MUs with the rest of the cast. @ Frost | Odds

I also think ZSS is arguably A+ on your scale this patch. improved neutral game (paralyzer and nair buffs), better punishes (throw buffs), and nerfs to troublesome MUs at the top tiers leave her in a much improved spot over last patch, where she was still considered around the same spot you have her now. She has great MUs against everyone in the same tier you have her in, as well as many good and even MUs in the tier abover her. There are some top characters where her MU is either even or marginally bad, and a few that are bad, which i believe warrants a slightly better tier placement for her. other than a weaker OOS game than many tops, and an exploitable recovery in certain MUs, her attributes make for a very powerful character. lots of range and quick attacks on a high mobility character with a good projectile isnt something to take lightly.

 

[Manaconda]

Yoshi still not unlocked - nobody prominent (dw I see you didds) is doing DJL or other important tech with Yoshi, much less properly implementing it into high-level play. The pivot grab nerf should be 100% irrelevant, because you shouldn't be using pivot grab in situations where it can miss. Dsmash out of dashdance and shield is *insanely* strong...

How do Yoshi's DJL and Dsmash compare to Peach's? Like in terms of frame data and range and stuff? Is it really that good?

A lot of the Peach's I know from Melee think that dsmash oos is too slow since the hitbox comes out on frame 12. One of them told me MacD shares similar thoughts. I'm inclined to agree since a good opponent being near -12 on shield is kind of rare and I've only ever landed it once on anyone who knew what they were doing.

I also see dsmash out of dash dance requiring some sort of read as to when they will lunge at you.

CC out of dash dance is a bit faster and you get the benefit of ASDI down before you even finish your crouch, so I see that being a thing.

EDIT: Should have pointed out that I meant CC --> DJL --> DD.