Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

if marth had a dedicated kill throw at 140 i would make everyone quit

 

[Boiko]

When I play against Lucas, I wait for him to dair and reactionary DJC bair. I can't do that to his others aerials. Dair is a pretty decent commitment. Marth's tilts will kill at a reasonable percent also.

 

[didds]

booooo, what I'm hearing here disgusts me. There are a plethora of reasons to pick pika over fox which all boils down to play preference. I personally like being able to breath off stage and avoid getting boned by every chain grab in the game. I like being able to go deep for gimps and edge guards. I enjoy Pika's style of edgeguarding where im hunting for that one good ftilt before dropping off stage to finish the stock. I LIKE POKING OVER AND OVER WITH DTILT.

fun game is played for fun and its interesting to see how easily people see pika as the worse fox because of what? dd usmash?
i get that pika is a worse character, but he's no more worse fox than falco is a worse fox.

hard characters can be fun too you guys!

 

[G13_Flux]

Ganon has a 5frame empty landing, too, I thought.ht've forgotten that change if it happened...

And effective grab range and grab disjoint aren't the same, at least not in the sense I'm discussing. Disjoint would be the grab box physically removed from you hurtbox, more like a tether grab.

Effective grab range is like marth leaning forward really quickly as he grabs, making him have his absurd grab range. Zard does this, since he lunges withbhis head to bite for his grab, giving him a really large effective grab range, but not any sort of disjoint on hisngrab boxes themselves.

Contract with ganon, who hardly shifts his body at all, barely extending his arm : (

I must have overlooked ganon then. Tested literrally everyone else.. figures lol. Either way, even if thats 4 characters that are outliers, I just think it doesnt make sense. if a third of the cast had 4 frames lags, then a third had 5, then a third had 6, itd be a different story, even though I would still argue that for fluidities sake, there should be some normalization. I just think its bad design ATM and sticks out as really odd, given all the normalization tweaks that have been happening.

by your terminology, i believe ive actually been referring to effective grab range the whole time. The way i see it, what i was reffering to as grab disjoint was the difference in range between your grab boxes and your hurtboxes in a standing/shielding/running position. even if you lean in, and your characters hand reaches towards the end of the grab bubble, leaving you no disjoint, grab armor still is a factor there in allowing you beat out attacks.

if my terminology was unclear/unconventional, i do apologize, but the content of my posts in relation to what Im describing now i believe to be pretty accurate (with grab ranges being only a small part of them), and Ive accepted corrections to hasty statements where due.

 

[JOE!]

Zard has huge grab reach, huge normal reach and generally huge hitbox coverage (probably better than even the other fatties in terms of sheer space), huge base knockback, a great DD, is literally made of kill moves and anti-airs, an excellent punish/stagger game as a result of these; maybe he doesn't have spacies' "OP" stuff but he has Marth's "OP" stuff and then some

Zard is definitely the least troubled fatty but he is still brought down by being one.

Also, in response to earlier zangief talk, what if fatties had like frame 5/6 grabs?

 

[Frost | Odds]

for what its worth:
http://i.imgur.com/Mrzepjz.png

Yeah, Bowser has negative disjoint on the majority of his moves - it's not just the grab. This is what makes characters like Marth extremely frustrating to play against - because he doesn't have to aim to hit my body at all, he can just punish my whiffs from across the stage.

 

[Narelex]

Yeah, Bowser has negative disjoint on the majority of his moves - it's not just the grab. This is what makes characters like Marth extremely frustrating to play against - because he doesn't have to aim to hit my body at all, he can just punish my whiffs from across the stage.

Clearly Bowser needs disjointed claws. (maybe?)

On a more serious note this is an issue a lot of the larger cast have and hopefully it can be resolved. I'm not a huge fan of winning because my character isn't big, makes it feel less like you didn't outplay them in-game but rather the CSS.

 

[Trollinguy]

Fox has a strong neutral game but I wouldnt say it completly dominates every character (for example pika or mk, or any other character with a strong neutal game).

However fox dominates neutral game against characters with terrible neutral games (poor bowser).

The only way to fix this is to nerf fox neutral or make the worst characters neutral game better- Doing that would mean hella balancing/power creep.

So instead of just saying nerf fow, im going to suggest a nerf:
I think one of the best ways to balance fox is to slow down his dash speed. This weakens his neutal in a variety of ways without super changing his playstyle.

 

[CORY]

I must have overlooked ganon then. Tested literrally everyone else.. figures lol. Either way, even if thats 4 characters that are outliers, I just think it doesnt make sense. if a third of the cast had 4 frames lags, then a third had 5, then a third had 6, itd be a different story, even though I would still argue that for fluidities sake, there should be some normalization. I just think its bad design ATM and sticks out as really odd, given all the normalization tweaks that have been happening.

yeah, i agree with your overall point. really would like to see f5 be the upward bound for jump squat and universal 4f empty landing be implemented, for consistency's sake, as well as easing quality of life for (especially!) the ddd's of the world.

by your terminology, i believe ive actually been referring to effective grab range the whole time. The way i see it, what i was reffering to as grab disjoint was the difference in range between your grab boxes and your hurtboxes in a standing/shielding/running position. even if you lean in, and your characters hand reaches towards the end of the grab bubble, leaving you no disjoint, grab armor still is a factor there in allowing you beat out attacks.

if my terminology was unclear/unconventional, i do apologize, but the content of my posts in relation to what Im describing now i believe to be pretty accurate (with grab ranges being only a small part of them), and Ive accepted corrections to hasty statements where due.

i actually finally got to look at that post you linked from magus. that looks really odd and unintuitive, but his images were showing the separation between the character's normal standing animation and the edge of their grab. it almost looks like character size could be altering the camera, but i don't know how that works and i could just be throwing a bias into that on my own. i'll have to try giving it a look in debug on the training stage when i get back around to practicing again.

 

[Seagull Joe]

OBViouslyy you allll community btttthole just ignore the fact FACKT FAKT that NY is was and WILL forever be the best at this game. SPRRRRRY to let youuu knowwww,,, BUT! FS has never lsottt a crew battle. AND WE HAVE VMANCE VANZ JADEN. THE GOAT OF PM. ANYway, we havent lost yet SO COME OUT YALLL whenEVER we get our new nebulous back. SEAGULL HO came and got rekt by froz, PROF HO came and got rekt by ME. ELI is the goat, GURU rekt hax, axe,, cruz,, and whoever else he wantfs when ahe feels like it cuz hes the ****kkin best, . Anyway, love you guys <3 come through and beat us if u got someeeethin to say. OH AND WE'LL BE AT PATRAGONQ!!!! paragone paragon,... ALsooo SO WE on topic. My tier list = mario and falco the goats and ev1 else sucks.. SO SUCK IT. Ight we out

Oh and Zhiwmre is also the best Zhime. He beat mad mofos tooo

FS would get **** on by VGz. When yall came down here you guys got wrecked by me, Llod, Junebug, and Smash G0D LOL. I've topped every NY/NJ tourney I went to.

 

[Player -0]

Wait people can interpret what Gallo says? I just look at it and then keep scrolling usually.

 

[G13_Flux]

Yeah, Bowser has negative disjoint on the majority of his moves - it's not just the grab. This is what makes characters like Marth extremely frustrating to play against - because he doesn't have to aim to hit my body at all, he can just punish my whiffs from across the stage.

my friend is a good bowser main, while im a roy main. our neutral game bassically consists of me DDing until he does a move (usually a dash attack or dtilt) then grabbing him. its a very stagnant neutral. since roys gab game is so good (both throw-wise AND his grab range) thats all i really have to do. if he happens to decide to flame cancel, aerial approaches with roy are not hard. he can usually get up a shield, but seeing as how bowsers only relevant OOS option is up b (and roy can space relatively well on shield), its difficult for him to actually punish me in that scenario. at best, the situation is reset back to neutral. at worst, i punish him because i read his up b timing/movement correctly. I am of the belief that having a good grab range (and a faster grab, in bowsers case) would help create a more dynamic OOS game for him. There would be more thought that goes into how you want to attempt to punish someone who's pressuring you, and that means that more thought has to come from the person whos doing the pressuring. now that bowsers range is lowered slightly in 3.6, and i have an easier time CCing things like dash attack, fair, and ftilt, it just got a whole lot easier for roy to make grabs and dtilts his entire gameplan for a clean shut out. at least before, i would die at like 70% if i screwed up. a very similar neutral happens in marths case.

edit:

yeah, i agree with your overall point. really would like to see f5 be the upward bound for jump squat and universal 4f empty landing be implemented, for consistency's sake, as well as easing quality of life for (especially!) the ddd's of the world.


i actually finally got to look at that post you linked from magus. that looks really odd and unintuitive, but his images were showing the separation between the character's normal standing animation and the edge of their grab. it almost looks like character size could be altering the camera, but i don't know how that works and i could just be throwing a bias into that on my own. i'll have to try giving it a look in debug on the training stage when i get back around to practicing again.

yeah the camera could be different in each case, and the training room probably would have been the best choice (at least, thats what I always use for stuff like that). but in the various pictures of characters, you can see that he at least positioned TopN the same way for every charcter (im pretty sure its TopN, the bottom dot on each character). you can see that the dot is on a very specific line in each case, and when used in conjunction with the grey line of the background portrait, youll be able to see the relative measurements that are listed in the stats thread and you have a secondary reference to help combat stage zoom differences. Its probably not accurate to the tee, but it seems like a reliable comparative depiction, and magus generally has high quality posts when it comes to frame data/game mechanics/coding things etc. (apparently the stats thread is wrong though btw, if you want more detail on this, refer to the post in the zelda thread that i posted along with the picture).

edit2:

Zard is definitely the least troubled fatty but he is still brought down by being one.

Also, in response to earlier zangief talk, what if fatties had like frame 5/6 grabs?

I think thats a good suggestion. I heard ripple mention that earlier too. I think it would have positive outcomes in terms of dealing with pressure, without them being too polarized. DDD might need some further redesign if this was enacted, however. I could be wrong, but it might be hard to justify his current grab range in conjunction with a 5 frame grab. I personally think he should just have a better up b OOS, but thats a different story that ive already elaborated on.

for boswer, zard, and DK however (i might even throw ganon into this one too), i think it would certainly be a good design for them, and would make players have to re-evaluate how they apply pressure. it would also make the MUs less free for space animals.

 

[steelguttey]

i wanna talk about wolf for a sec

because wolf is probably the second best character in the game, but is also the one that isnt gonna matter until someone actually gets good with him and learns every single angle on wolf flash. until then i think he sucks

 

[Magus420]

I locked the camera in place (L->DPad Left) and used the in game character swap to switch between characters (B->DPad Left/Right). The camera is exactly the same between them (you can see this by comparing the floor and such really), and I respawned them and dropped straight down for the same X positioning each time. I prefer WW over TR for its simple design/black BG, which also compresses extremely well if making a gif.

 

[CORY]

awesome, thanks for the clarification, dank wizard.

 

[xLithiumx]

i wanna talk about wolf for a sec

because wolf is probably the second best character in the game, but is also the one that isnt gonna matter until someone actually gets good with him and learns every single angle on wolf flash. until then i think he sucks

Wolf has tons of potential and I dislike how nobody really uses him except for Chillin and Silentwolf (although I've only seen SW play him back in like 2.6). I tried to get my friend to play Wolf at a high level back when he mained Wolf, but then he became a Mario main :/

 

[AceGamer]

Wolf has tons of potential and I dislike how nobody really uses him except for Chillin and Silentwolf (although I've only seen SW play him back in like 2.6). I tried to get my friend to play Wolf at a high level back when he mained Wolf, but then he became a Mario main :/

Actually Neon has been playing Wolf recently and getting better, I haven't seen it at a national or regional level yet tho. There's also Oksas but I haven't seen him on stream for awhile now. Oh and Lucky has been working on a Wolf too

 

[xLithiumx]

Actually Neon has been playing Wolf recently and getting better, I haven't seen it at a national or regional level yet tho. There's also Oksas but I haven't seen him on stream for awhile now. Oh and Lucky has been working on a Wolf too

That's cool, yo. I'm gonna try to get my friend to play Wolf again cuz Wolf's a ****in' beast at high level play.

 

[JOE!]

What if grounded Up B made the "landing stars" for DDD too?

Also, just how big of an impact would a frame 5 grab have? Like, Shield-Grab on frame 5, what is suddenly not safe?

 

[4tlas]

I don't think Fox out-chases/out-lives/out-combos/out-pressures Falco. He definitely out-gimps/kills him though. I mean, Falco has to combo into a kill and Fox can just run-in U-Smash for days. Plus, I think Falco out neutrals Fox in their MU if you play it right. Falco Lasers > Fox Lasers any day. Plus, if you can out-range Fox with projectiles or a tilt, it makes things easier.

I think stage matters here, but overall I agree that Falco's neutral is stupidly good as well and happens to be one of the few characters with a neutral that "counters" Fox's. That is a possible reason why there are thoughts of ranking him higher than Fox in Melee, especially since Fox is so prevalent there. However, like I said, gimps are the great equalizer. No matter how much more Falco combos Fox into kills, Fox still always has a decent chance of outmaneuvering his opponent and getting a gimp, especially on a character with a recovery like Falco's. Its something you always have to respect, like Jigglypuff Rest, but its on a fast-moving target, much less risky, and also on a character with other options.

Btw, did the changes to Fox's aerial shine let him waveshine more characters? Can he waveshine Falco? That would make this MU go wild. I heard he can waveshine Jiggs now... *shudder*

 

[Manaconda]

Aerial shine should be overcome by ASDI down.

 

[Life]

Aerial shine should be overcome by ASDI down.

Still get a techchase on one of the best techchasing characters in the game. (Assuming they are at aerial shine knockdown percents of course. If they aren't, why didn't you just regular shine? Aside from like double shine stuff but then it depends on how they dealt with the first shine.)

 

[Life]

What if grounded Up B made the "landing stars" for DDD too?

Also, just how big of an impact would a frame 5 grab have? Like, Shield-Grab on frame 5, what is suddenly not safe?

How many things are -5 or -6 on shield? That's usually around the point you have to start worrying about shieldgrab where you can't just follow up with jab or spotdodge or something. Faster grabs would drop that threshold a bit.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Not that I'm anyone, or that this particularly matters, but I'm pretty much done with this game. And I say this in a patch where my character is really good and I could still very easily beat my other semi-casual friends if I cared to. I just wouldn't have any fun doing it.

Dunno if y'all have noticed but this game has been steadily losing its lustre. We've been losing the things that kept me coming back patch after patch and this game is no longer a source of any kind of enjoyment for me, sadly. Frankly the unwillingness to admit that we've been working from a broken base is starting to really get ridiculous. Melee had a couple things peculiar to it that keeps its metagame working to its playerbase's satisfaction. The very fact that PM wanted a bigger viable cast means that you need to do things different from that game, a simple conclusion that the patches haven't caught up to yet.

Basically it's been made clear to me that I'm not the kind of player that the Dev team values and it making this game for and I have no reason to stay. The streams are drying up, the matches are stale and "Can this PM player beat the local Melee top?" is a GF I can get excited for only so often, especially when the answer is usually "No".

Enjoy the Melee expansion pack, and someone thank Metroid for all the videos.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Not that I'm anyone, or that this particularly matters, but I'm pretty much done with this game. And I say this in a patch where my character is really good and I could still very easily beat my other semi-casual friends if I cared to. I just wouldn't have any fun doing it.

Dunno if y'all have noticed but this game has been steadily losing its lustre. We've been losing the things that kept me coming back patch after patch and this game is no longer a source of any kind of enjoyment for me, sadly. Frankly the unwillingness to admit that we've been working from a broken base is starting to really get ridiculous. Melee had a couple things peculiar to it that keeps its metagame working to its playerbase's satisfaction. The very fact that PM wanted a bigger viable cast means that you need to do things different from that game, a simple conclusion that the patches haven't caught up to yet.

Basically it's been made clear to me that I'm not the kind of player that the Dev team values and it making this game for and I have no reason to stay. The streams are drying up, the matches are stale and "Can this PM player beat the local Melee top?" is a GF I can get excited for only so often, especially when the answer is usually "No".

Enjoy the Melee expansion pack, and someone thank Metroid for all the videos.

Jesus Christ. Sorry to see you go.

I choose to remain optimistic, but it's not difficult to see where your perception is coming from.

 

[Scuba Steve]

tldr

maylay2stronk4Thane

 

[Boiko]

Maybe it's because I'm a melee player that I really don't mind dealing with Fox and other top tiers, and I personally like when melee players get involved with PM. The only time that I don't is when they have a bad attitude, like when they win and say, "I don't even play this game" or when they lose and said, "I don't even play this game" or "that character is dumb, blah blah" but that's not melee players, that's just people with bad attitudes. Everyone is different.

That being said, <3 Thane, pls no. I get where you're coming from though. People value different things in a game.

On topic, what do you guys think about Roy? Still a pretty dominating force, huh? Dtilt nerf doesn't really seem to matter that much considering its spamability. Maybe it should have a bit more end lag so players have to use it smarter instead of always.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah Thane, I understand where you're coming from. I just don't see any better alternative (by a huge margin, even) and who knows, maybe that issue will be alleviated eventually. So I'll be playing PM until my hands can't anymore lol

 

[Zoa]

Well...****. Hate to see you go, Thane. I've enjoyed reading the conversations you've had with everyone through these past few years.

 

[Commander]

Not that I'm anyone, or that this particularly matters, but I'm pretty much done with this game. And I say this in a patch where my character is really good and I could still very easily beat my other semi-casual friends if I cared to. I just wouldn't have any fun doing it.

Dunno if y'all have noticed but this game has been steadily losing its lustre. We've been losing the things that kept me coming back patch after patch and this game is no longer a source of any kind of enjoyment for me, sadly. Frankly the unwillingness to admit that we've been working from a broken base is starting to really get ridiculous. Melee had a couple things peculiar to it that keeps its metagame working to its playerbase's satisfaction. The very fact that PM wanted a bigger viable cast means that you need to do things different from that game, a simple conclusion that the patches haven't caught up to yet.

Basically it's been made clear to me that I'm not the kind of player that the Dev team values and it making this game for and I have no reason to stay. The streams are drying up, the matches are stale and "Can this PM player beat the local Melee top?" is a GF I can get excited for only so often, especially when the answer is usually "No".

Enjoy the Melee expansion pack, and someone thank Metroid for all the videos.

What specifically has made you lose interest?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah Thane, I understand where you're coming from. I just don't see any better alternative (by a huge margin, even) and who knows, maybe that issue will be alleviated eventually. So I'll be playing PM until my hands can't anymore lol

Heh. It's not really a secret that you understand the need for a spacie redesign to one degree or another.

As for the feeling of 'nerfing the fun out of the game', I get it, @ Thane of Blue Flames - probably much better than most. I'm not PMDT and can't speak with certainty about their exact process, but in general, you need to get rid of toxic character/faction/unit/weapon/class/whatever strengths before you can add healthy ones, though. It's not really an avoidable part of the design process. I hope you come back for 4.0, when, if the current pattern holds, a lot of that stuff should get dumped back in like a big truckload of delicious skittles

 

[Player -0]

Yeah. I'm hoping a lot of the fun stuff comes back in later.

For heavies/fatties having frame ~5 grabs you have to think of how their high ahieldstun aerials (because damage. Actually idk how much damage they do) may give them crazy shield pressure with safe on shield aerials into grab before they can.

I can't pull out specific numbers or even if it's a bad idea but just something to look at.

 

[MagnesD3]

Just something I find silly that I think needs to be changed is characters who carry their charges after death. Things like wario's waft and ivysaurs solarbeam should definitely go away if they die with them not being used. It makes those strong tools way easier to land than they should be imo. This goes for any character who can store something and retains that property after they die.

 

[xLithiumx]

I think stage matters here, but overall I agree that Falco's neutral is stupidly good as well and happens to be one of the few characters with a neutral that "counters" Fox's. That is a possible reason why there are thoughts of ranking him higher than Fox in Melee, especially since Fox is so prevalent there. However, like I said, gimps are the great equalizer. No matter how much more Falco combos Fox into kills, Fox still always has a decent chance of outmaneuvering his opponent and getting a gimp, especially on a character with a recovery like Falco's. Its something you always have to respect, like Jigglypuff Rest, but its on a fast-moving target, much less risky, and also on a character with other options.

Btw, did the changes to Fox's aerial shine let him waveshine more characters? Can he waveshine Falco? That would make this MU go wild. I heard he can waveshine Jiggs now... *shudder*

I think Fox has always been able to waveshine Falco, and this is based on him being able to do so in Melee but idk if the angles are different. If he can waveshine Jiggs then GG man, Fox wins it all. Jk, but if he can, you won't see it much since it sounds like it's super difficult to do. Since I'm a Fox main, this does make me happy since now I might be able to thunders combo a little easier.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I know exactly which patch I'm coming back for. Basically even if the Fox/Lyn matchup is 80:20, pretty much nothing could make me quit PM at that point.

Idk, just looking over the direction the patches have taken PM in, there's been a lot of necessary removal of toxic stuff but also a lot of bias in deciding what's toxic and what's Shine.

Also there's a tendency to flinch away from new and unique playstyles as they emerge. A lot of the successful characters and playstyles are kinda ... samey. You notice how juggle and launcher focused *all* the swordies are? I'd like for Zelda to have a Din's that f***s recoveries and throws that put people far offstage where she wants them. I'd like for DK, one of two characters that can move with a grabbed opponent, to be able to capitalize of positional advantage better. I'd like for Link to actually be allowed to bury opponents under a hail of projectiles and zoning without everyone pissing salt over it. I would, frankly, like some diversity, the thing that drew me to this mod to begin with.

Yeah 3.02 was pretty **** to watch in the end, and it was pretty **** for my character. But I saw characters doing things other than Dash-Dance.

 

[Frost | Odds]

For heavies/fatties having frame ~5 grabs you have to think of how their high ahieldstun aerials (because damage. Actually idk how much damage they do) may give them crazy shield pressure with safe on shield aerials into grab before they can.

Spacies can already do that with aerials into shinegrab. So, my question: would this really be that bad of a thing? Can you imagine a world where you're just as intimidated if your opponent picks DK or Charizard on the CSS, as if he had picked Fox or Wolf? Would that really be that horrible? :x

 

[Manaconda]

I think Fox has always been able to waveshine Falco, and this is based on him being able to do so in Melee but idk if the angles are different. If he can waveshine Jiggs then GG man, Fox wins it all. Jk, but if he can, you won't see it much since it sounds like it's super difficult to do. Since I'm a Fox main, this does make me happy since now I might be able to thunders combo a little easier.

Fox has never been able to waveshine Falco or Jigglypuff. Anybody on that list under NTSC Marth (under a weight of 87) gets knocked down.

 

[Leafeon]

I think Fox has always been able to waveshine Falco

 

[xLithiumx]

Fox has never been able to waveshine Falco or Jigglypuff. Anybody on that list under NTSC Marth (under a weight of 87) gets knocked down.

I thought that he could b/c he can WS light characters in Melee.

 

[Leafeon]

I thought that he could b/c he can WS light characters in Melee.

No.