Only characters with a weight greater than or equal to 87 get waveshined.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Are you saying that he can't waveshine people lighter than Marth in Melee or...?
Commander
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2013
- Messages
- 591
Can you give some examples of "toxic" stuff that you felt should've stayed?
I don't view the swordies(Marth, Ike, Roy, and MK) as samey. Marth feels like he tries to harass opponents with the tip of his sword. Roy seems to go mainly for shield pressure and mix ups on shield. MK is almost like a spacie with his shield pressure. I only get juggle heavy as Ike when I fight spacies, otherwise I'm still trying to find my own style for Ike and have been having a lot of changes in my own approaches lately. Juggling is extremely powerful for almost all characters due the the nature of it being hard to get back down in smash. Mario, Ganondorf, Charizard, ROB, and so on have really powerful juggling tools. If juggling bothers you then it should bother you across all smash games since juggling leads to the longest and most damaging strings on an opponent. There isn't a smash game or character where you wouldn't want to try to do a good amount of juggling when you can.
I can't really speak much for the other chars unfortunately. I pretty much play PM and view it exclusively through Ike. What problems does DK face? There are two good DK mains in my region and they seem to have a pretty easy time doing well, and gaining good positions with and without his grab.
I personally hate moves/characters that become flow chart like and that is a biggest concern for me when it comes to char design. If an optimal Link is only doing one or two combos/strings then I don't think Link would be well designed and in 3.02 all Link really wanted to do was through a boomerang and combo out of it. Even if it is easily handled, it isn't fun to fight against the same combos/strings repeatedly.
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
Zigludo
Smash Journeyman
i don't even disagree with you, but you can do better than that, man. this is ostensibly a thread for discussing the game in depth
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
at this point, i think it gets on a lot of peoples nerves that characters seem to be getting nerfed who dont need to be nerfed. like, DDD wasnt really amazing before, but he got nerfed. same with bowser. others, who were already considered decent, like ZSS, got buffed. the randomness of the nerf/buff system obviously is geared at taking away the "jank" that actually made 3.02 really fun to a lot of people. The PMDT is designing the game way ahead of everyone elses minds. Theyre looking at how the metagame is going to pan out 10 years from now, as opposed to 10 weeks. the result is that many characters matches seem less entertaining at the moment because theyre being set to a base design that needs to be built upon.
like we've discussed, i do believe that the PMDT wants to build upon characters from a better design base, hence, stripping them of everything, then building from there. some characters are farther along in that design process, whereas others are behind. Id like to believe that characters like bowser, DDD, jiggs, DK, etc. will get some further buffs/redesigns into future patches that will give some luster back to their games.
like we've discussed, i do believe that the PMDT wants to build upon characters from a better design base, hence, stripping them of everything, then building from there. some characters are farther along in that design process, whereas others are behind. Id like to believe that characters like bowser, DDD, jiggs, DK, etc. will get some further buffs/redesigns into future patches that will give some luster back to their games.
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
Dashdance, poke with downtilt, when you have them in a bad position then you take advantage of it, and stocks.
Here are some links from my DeviantArt page where you can see them though
http://xstorm145x.deviantart.com/art/20150716-161353-546840311 Jiggs
http://xstorm145x.deviantart.com/art/20150716-161446-546841003 Falco
http://xstorm145x.deviantart.com/art/20150716-161353-546840311 Jiggs
http://xstorm145x.deviantart.com/art/20150716-161446-546841003 Falco
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
Ehhh... Okay, I agree but I don't agree.
Yes, the Melee factor is a little too strong. We're starting to see bolder steps in regards to that (they changed shine, whodathunkit?), but they're still tiptoe-steps that don't really address the characters properly and as such these characters are several patches behind in terms of the development process. I'm aware that the (no doubt anticipated) excessive backlash from changes to the Melee tops probably factors into this cautious approach, but I feel that PM stands on its own two feet at this point and that further development considerations should proceed with that in mind.
Yes, there are a lot of non-Melee characters that have lost flavor, identity, etc. I know a bit about that and have written more on that topic than I really care to think about. We can only hope that the next patch will re-introduce flavored gameplay where it is needed now that we've been through a de-jank purge. Maybe we'll even see some of the non-jank related playstyle shifts reverted to restore desirable flavor, that would be nice.
Yes, a lot of non-Melee characters need better tools. We just went through a huge discussion regarding fatties and especially Bowser's desperate need for better options.
But.
But.
The meta has grown terribly stagnant for many characters and we have nobody to blame for that but ourselves. How many Bowser mains can you name that are actively producing or have recently produced meta-advancing informational content? Lucas? Pikachu, Diddy, Wolf, ROB, Mewtwo? A lot of the non-Melee character boards (and boards like the ICs) would be all but dead were it not for the effort of one or two posters, or are dead because they don't have anyone actively filling that role. High level discussion is a rarity simply because there's so little opportunity for it.
Pretty sure I've written the majority of the more recent informational content on the Mewtwo boards just by throwing out random tidbits while I chip away at the two guide threads sitting in my docs folder in what little free time I have. That's not bragging, that's me wishing that I wasn't talking to myself half the time when I post there.
That's not the PMDT's fault. These are characters ripe with opportunities for innovation and we're seeing little or none of it because people aren't stepping up, labbing it out, and actively and independently developing their understanding of their chosen character(s). The meta has so much room to grow, yet it seems like a lot of players aren't doing anything except trying to mimic one player or another while they wait for the next patch.
Yes, the Melee factor is a little too strong. We're starting to see bolder steps in regards to that (they changed shine, whodathunkit?), but they're still tiptoe-steps that don't really address the characters properly and as such these characters are several patches behind in terms of the development process. I'm aware that the (no doubt anticipated) excessive backlash from changes to the Melee tops probably factors into this cautious approach, but I feel that PM stands on its own two feet at this point and that further development considerations should proceed with that in mind.
Yes, there are a lot of non-Melee characters that have lost flavor, identity, etc. I know a bit about that and have written more on that topic than I really care to think about. We can only hope that the next patch will re-introduce flavored gameplay where it is needed now that we've been through a de-jank purge. Maybe we'll even see some of the non-jank related playstyle shifts reverted to restore desirable flavor, that would be nice.
Yes, a lot of non-Melee characters need better tools. We just went through a huge discussion regarding fatties and especially Bowser's desperate need for better options.
But.
But.
The meta has grown terribly stagnant for many characters and we have nobody to blame for that but ourselves. How many Bowser mains can you name that are actively producing or have recently produced meta-advancing informational content? Lucas? Pikachu, Diddy, Wolf, ROB, Mewtwo? A lot of the non-Melee character boards (and boards like the ICs) would be all but dead were it not for the effort of one or two posters, or are dead because they don't have anyone actively filling that role. High level discussion is a rarity simply because there's so little opportunity for it.
Pretty sure I've written the majority of the more recent informational content on the Mewtwo boards just by throwing out random tidbits while I chip away at the two guide threads sitting in my docs folder in what little free time I have. That's not bragging, that's me wishing that I wasn't talking to myself half the time when I post there.
That's not the PMDT's fault. These are characters ripe with opportunities for innovation and we're seeing little or none of it because people aren't stepping up, labbing it out, and actively and independently developing their understanding of their chosen character(s). The meta has so much room to grow, yet it seems like a lot of players aren't doing anything except trying to mimic one player or another while they wait for the next patch.
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Commander
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2013
- Messages
- 591
How do you take advantage of the bad position as Roy or MK?
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
For marth, they lose the space from downtilt to elude your grabs or other attacks.
For Roy and Metaknight, you put them in the air with downtilt for juggling with a couple of the best upairs in the game. There are infinite possibilities.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
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Life
Smash Hero
People like to hate on Squirtle on this thread, but if there's one thing Squirtle doesn't have a problem with, it's players coming up with new stuff. Granted, it's mostly Daftatt, but there are others finding stuff too.
eideeiit
Smash Ace
Aquaravioli Kreygasm.
Also just would like to point out that the ones that produce content are the ones that are passionate. These guys usually also want to win real hard. So I wonder what characters offer the greatest chances of success... (Or at least perceived such.)
There's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy at work here.
The ones to break it are the ones that prove the awesomeness and effectiveness of their characters to the people. Like I guess Sethlon and Junebug. Ripple too. Others too. It was the same in Melee to some degree too, wasn't it? How many years did it take for jiggs to get promoted to top tier?
Also just would like to point out that the ones that produce content are the ones that are passionate. These guys usually also want to win real hard. So I wonder what characters offer the greatest chances of success... (Or at least perceived such.)
There's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy at work here.
The ones to break it are the ones that prove the awesomeness and effectiveness of their characters to the people. Like I guess Sethlon and Junebug. Ripple too. Others too. It was the same in Melee to some degree too, wasn't it? How many years did it take for jiggs to get promoted to top tier?
tasteless gentleman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 492
bowser is bottom tier now, I don't care what anyone says, you clearly don't play him if you don't agree
tasteless gentleman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 492
Warning Received
Can some one explain what the devs were thinking when they mutilated bowser? I can list a book, but ill list 5 reasons how he was gutted for "speed" "buffs"
1. Klaw is 20% faster (in exchange for no armor, 25% less power, no slide, and a wack trajectory that is hard to follow)
2. He is faster (at the cost of 6% less size. This means less range (oh god so much range was lost), less punishing options, less weight, and relearning timing is a pain.
3. Down smash is faster (for an incredible 30% less power, less armor unless projected and charged, and a terrible DI depend trajectory)
4. Forward smash is "faster" (again, less armor, less range in the form of slide and rearing back, and way less kick back, I use to 1 hit ko jigs from 0% after a missed rest, now its like 30%)
5. He can act out of his moves faster (fast fallers already hit the ground before bowser can act because of less power and range)
These buffs are nerfs and as a top player in ohio and Kentucky, its annoying to lose to people who I would crush on a daily basis
1. Klaw is 20% faster (in exchange for no armor, 25% less power, no slide, and a wack trajectory that is hard to follow)
2. He is faster (at the cost of 6% less size. This means less range (oh god so much range was lost), less punishing options, less weight, and relearning timing is a pain.
3. Down smash is faster (for an incredible 30% less power, less armor unless projected and charged, and a terrible DI depend trajectory)
4. Forward smash is "faster" (again, less armor, less range in the form of slide and rearing back, and way less kick back, I use to 1 hit ko jigs from 0% after a missed rest, now its like 30%)
5. He can act out of his moves faster (fast fallers already hit the ground before bowser can act because of less power and range)
These buffs are nerfs and as a top player in ohio and Kentucky, its annoying to lose to people who I would crush on a daily basis
2 things
1) I gotta go afk in the mountains for at LEAST a few weeks on a moment's notice sometime soon, so this will be the send-off.
2) Given the recent talk over the last week or so, about Tethers and Snake and Bowser and whatever, I was contemplating posting something specific.
Though it's is even more appropriate now after these last few pages happened.
What the heck is a tier list anyway
Something that isn't brought up often enough, but needs to be very clear, is what a Tier List means for Project M
It's VERY DIFFERENT than a Tier List for Melee, Street Fighter, or any other game.
There are so many key words in there that this is just a mess of misinterpretation waiting to happen.
One key thing, is what we're all playing Smash for.
We're here to do cool stuff.
That's it. Nothing else, seriously.
If someone is playing Super Smash Brothers for any other reason, they're both missing the point of what they're doing, and they're aiming for something that would be a side-effect of what something else would bring them.
There are better choices than Smash for that other stuff.
This.
Smash is a way for us all to get together and do really cool **** to each other back and forth because we're friends like that.
Then figure out how to do cooler stuff.
And cooler stuff.
And get out of cool stuff that's happening, as it happens.
Do cool stuff back to them.
Do cooler stuff as they figure out how to deal with the cool stuff we're doing.
Do even cooler stuff.
Over and over.
This isn't a game where something is set-combo based or repetitive or limited in action at any given moment, leaving it completely untranslatable to/from any other complex and dynamic thing that falls into any these (SF combos and resets or leveling in Mobas or positions with turns in Chess for examples of each)
It's dynamic to such an extent that it's literally just a big mess.
A big ****ing mess of cool **** where you can play for ages and as long as you're still trying to figure out how to do cooler **** you'll ALWAYS find it, because it's THAT dynamic.
PM is another outlet for us all to do more (a LOT more) of this really cool ****.
That's 100% it right there.
Nothing else.
- Don't get hit by the things you don't want to get hit by, and hit people with the things you want to hit them with.
^That can be summed up as
- Do cooler stuff
^That can be summed up as
- Smash
The thing that's special about Project M, is that we have somewhat more control over the Tier List than in almost any other case with something this dynamic.
Tier List, means something VERY specific here.
Smash (PM) is a game.
A game implies to play. (playplay)
To play means to explore, to screw around with whatever substance/content is there to be screwed around with.
We're going to explore the game, for a long time. Play the **** out of it until all of the cool **** we can possible find has been done, and we'll still find more.
When people play (playplay) in such a way, and to such a direction, that they've become VERY GOOD at the game...
AKA, when we do this...
And eventually get to really see what parts of the cool stuff, and what kinds of cool things, WORK after it's all painted a little clearer for us...
We get an end-game.
How much of the 'cool stuff' stays in-tact and functional at that level of exploration (play) [playplay] is then clear, and we get the dynamics to flesh-out at that level of exploration for us to understand just how COOL the game is for competition purposes. (People would understand why they like Melee with at least some sense if people understood this at all)
What PM gets to determine, is this.
Control over the cool stuff where it counts for competition purposes (people facing off against each other to do cool stuff who have explored the doing-of-cool-stuff to this extent, the level of fully-fleshed-out-cool-**** etc just as posted above)
THAT is why a Tier List for Project M is ACTUALLY of any use, and why it's actually VERY substantial to the game. A long-term extremely flexible 'substance/content that we want to explore dynamically' has to be VERY DYNAMIC in this way. In the 'coolness' areas of PLAY.
What a 'PM patch' determines isn't balance of characters on a practical sense of top-level play, it's an attempt to make top-level play between players in a practical sense, REALLY ****ING COOL.
Nothing to do with BALANCE between the CHARACTERS
All to do with COOLNESS within a BALANCE.
Nobody likes playing OR watching a lop-sided match-up.
^That alone is why 'balance' is ever directly discussed.
Not 'fairness' but following the cause-and-effect of this to both the root and result, is coolness.
We want things cool, and being very unfair easily sucks a lot of coolness out of the play (playplay)
Nobody likes to watch a Fox laser camping a Zelda for 8 minutes on a top platform, or IC hand-offs on every Grab they get with Nana near, or Olimar missing an Up-B to the ledge because of a glitch, or DK camping to charge his punch while fishing for Grabs every single stock, or planking on a ledge in brawl or kirby platform camping the top of hyrule in 64.
Where do you think backlash comes from when ZSS grab quirks are normalized? It's really cool, and functional, but it's functional as it is now too. So it's not BALANCE for better or worse, it's COOLNESS within a balance that is removed for the sake of balance within characters (match-ups) alone, which doesn't cut it in terms of something being in line with what we CAN do with control over THIS KIND OF Tier List.
AKA, coolness sacrificed for balance is where fun dies.
Everyone wants to the fun to be in full-force at this Tier-List caliber level of exploration.
The balance is about coolness. Not character functionality.
Tethers weren't nerfed because they were OP to play with/against/around.
They were nerfed because they were NOT COOL to play with/against/around.
Why were they not cool to play with/against/around?
Because they were OP to play with/against/around.
If that difference is understood, and PLAYED to, then everything falls into place.
Jiggs Rest set-ups are cool. You know when it would be a lot LESS cool? If every Grab lead to a Rest, and Rest went through shields.
The centralization of things is fine, but if Jiggs ever was tweaked to be MORE centralized on this, rather than diversified for more coolness, she would lose dynamics. The balance is in there somewhere, but FUN WITHIN PLAY is the root.
Snake C4 stuff would be cool, and it's fine to be centralized on things, but if it becomes so centralized that you just get another DK/Jiggs with 1 game-plan and every stock/every dynamic of play (playplay) [exploring] is the same route, it becomes NOT COOL
What's also funny, is how Snake presses more buttons and looks COOLER within his centralization, so gets catered to while the others don't. Guaranteed, coolness comes before balance here too. Whether those who adjust these things know it or not.
When I was developing DotA (1, way before DotA2 was a thing), we had very distinct things. There was a team of us that was very much responsible for the game ending up as the dynamic ****-fest it eventually became, and everyone knows where that game has gone.
One example is how we centralized things to insure non-normalization while still being fitting for the game.
Lifestealer was an example. A single-target damage dealing Hero with no 'real' disables or ways of dealing with crowds or being overly mobile. He would jump in someone else, hopefully able to do all that for him, and use opportunistic things like this to find a target and do his damage.
For years, there were people cycling in and out of the team and once in a while it would come up to give the Hero something to clear creeps (trash/mobs) or whatever else, but we always went back to him having his 'role' (centralization) to insure the dynamics of the game remained. A team game, with unique and quirky things. Often he was considered strong, often weak, nothing really changed with him, but because of his quirks NOT being catered to the development of the way people played the game, he always fluctuated.
Because he was ****ed up. Really. Turns out after DotA2 is released, things change over, eventually he's given better disables, a way of clearing creeps in an area, and the entire game is catered to jumping in and exploding everything. Him, and the game around him was catered to have commentators shout more and skinner-box the game to no end.
We all knew he was broken, in the sense that he was quirky and counter-play heavy both as and against and with and around him. That was the game the whole time. Leave so much to be desired but such a niche to play with that there was no way he was strong OR weak.
When he was given more 'dynamics' to his abilities and what he could do, he was LESS dynamic as a Hero in the game. When he was normalized to be less quirky and dynamic, he was broken and had to be fixed repeatedly.
Every game takes this route if it's repeatedly updated without an understand of the depth that balance means.
Balance in coolness (quirks, brokenness, leaving so much to explore in SOME WAY) is what makes a Tier List count.
Otherwise, might as well play Brawl.
And it goes both ways.
Snake was centralized, quirky, counter-play heavy, and dynamic because of all of those things. It was as linear as it gets, but deceptively NOT linear because of how dynamic that centralized game is. PM patches have catered to this, but they didn't have to. It can easily go too far given this is already where people will explore, where people will play, where we will find more and more cool stuff that COUNTS because it's his quirk, his center, his explore-able territory. What would make it more-so, would be a toning down of its effectiveness, because more exploration will be possible/required/FUN to get that center to come into play/action.
Patches did the opposite with ZSS, as she was counter-play heavy, quirky, and dynamic due to these aspects. A very non-linear character who was seen as linear due to these quirks as if they were centralized tools simply because of how easy to explore, to play with, to do stuff that COUNTS with them because they were her quirks, her center. Rather than the way Snake is easily seen to have a 'cool' center he plays TO, she could have had a 'cool' center she plays FROM.
This might seem complicated but...
Again, all of this has been said.
Everything about 'why was Bowser nerfed' to 'why isn't Fox nerfed'
It's not for the reasons everyone seems to think.
Coolness > all.
Tethers imbalanced? No, their mechanics once used are NOT COOL (and Ivy recovering overall due to this)
Fox imbalanced? No, his optimal choices are NOT COOL (though cool stuff DOES happen because Smash)
DK/Jiggs imbalanced? No, their centralized game is NOT COOL (would be even worse if this was catered to like other less-centralized characters could be)
No complaints or commendations regarding Tier List stuff in this thread has ever been about Balance among Characters.
That's a false wall that's easy to identify with and understand.
Whenever anyone discusses a Project M Tier List they're talking about 1 thing, whether they mean to or not.
"When a person is doing all they can do to beat another person, is it really ****ing cool ****, or is it worth changing? BECAUSE. WE. MIGHT. TOTALLY. BE. ABLE. TO. MAKE. ****. EVEN. COOLER."
That is a PM Tier List root
On that note.
Playing.
Exploring, screwing around with the substance/content there to be screwed around with.
This again.
That's no longer you playing.
Playing, is when you're doing the things you would choose to do if you could. Playing, is when you're actively exploring the substance/content you're interacting with, with your attention and perspective. (mind-stuff)
This isn't about technical button pressing, etc, it's volitional action that counts, exclusively.
Play the game.
There's a quote that all the locals get me to regurgitate to any player that comes through... so I have to say it at least once a week to a new local or an OOS player.
Become fluent to play, rather than play to become fluent.
The same concept applies to anything. You don't play hockey to get in shape, you get in shape to play hockey. Same thing for Smash.
Figure out what it means to be fluently playing Smash, and learn to do that, then apply that to your play.
Nobody should have to play NEARLY as much as they do to be much better than they are.
I've said it many times, and InfinityC just reminded me by saying the meta-game is stagnant now, as if it's more stagnant now than other times.
It has ALWAYS been stagnant. It might sound negative or degrading or pessimistic, but it's not at all. It's a path, just like any other path. I've probably echo'd in this thread about how everyone overplays themselves into fluency rather than becoming fluent to play. Elaborating on that infinite times by now in private coaching sessions with top-end melee players to random newbs on these smashboards forums.
It happened with Melee and it happens with PM just the same.
I watched a year of everyone from SW to chillin to Prof play a Wolf like a Fox non-stop without actually taking seemingly a single step into where their head is at when playing. You think they can't explore characters? Watch them play any other character or game to-date, there was something else at play, and the minds involved were either stuck somewhere else, or found new roots elsewhere after a time of muck.
The entire meta-game was muck from day 1 of 2.1 and it has NEVER accelerated beyond the natural bumps of 'progress' that come when an entire mass-populace plays a game to no end. Fluency comes, but this doesn't have to be a background effect of excessive time and effort.
Learn the opposite.
Everyone is overplaying themselves into fluency, rather than becoming fluent to play.
Learn the opposite.
To play means to explore.
Exploring will lead you somewhere, perhaps to a root of something else.
Probably some kind of mental contents.
You obviously pay attention to SOMETHING when you're playing Smash.
Do you know what it is?
Maybe start paying attention to whatever you're paying attention to.
Something cool happens... pay attention to the fact you thought that was cool.
Something frustrates you... pay attention to the fact that you're frustrated.
There's no effort involved, no strain involved, no major thing happens circumstantially.
It's there, but you see it a little differently.
No thing forces a change in mental disposition more than a change in circumstance.
You just have to use it.
That's the difference maker for the end-game.
The Top-Tier of any Tier-List.
Smash is good like that.
I couldn't count the number of times I mentioned this to music-gods or writing-gods or any kind of 'master-of-their-art' (including melee-gods as I beat them all at their own game) but this is all I ever really said back in my down-from-the-valley days and new-wave-forum-posting days.
Before some more rooted things (Vipassana/etc)
Smash was the best intellectual and spiritual teaching and learning tool I ever had.
Use that **** well, and do the coolest **** you can do.
To improve means to become different towards what is better.
To become different means to change.
Change, therefore, is the only way anything can ever improve.
Project shall we collectively make the coolest (Smash) game in the world Much?
Keep it going PM community, dev team, and Smashers at large.
1) I gotta go afk in the mountains for at LEAST a few weeks on a moment's notice sometime soon, so this will be the send-off.
2) Given the recent talk over the last week or so, about Tethers and Snake and Bowser and whatever, I was contemplating posting something specific.
Though it's is even more appropriate now after these last few pages happened.
What the heck is a tier list anyway
Something that isn't brought up often enough, but needs to be very clear, is what a Tier List means for Project M
It's VERY DIFFERENT than a Tier List for Melee, Street Fighter, or any other game.
There are so many key words in there that this is just a mess of misinterpretation waiting to happen.
One key thing, is what we're all playing Smash for.
We're here to do cool stuff.
That's it. Nothing else, seriously.
If someone is playing Super Smash Brothers for any other reason, they're both missing the point of what they're doing, and they're aiming for something that would be a side-effect of what something else would bring them.
There are better choices than Smash for that other stuff.
This.
Smash is a way for us all to get together and do really cool **** to each other back and forth because we're friends like that.
Then figure out how to do cooler stuff.
And cooler stuff.
And get out of cool stuff that's happening, as it happens.
Do cool stuff back to them.
Do cooler stuff as they figure out how to deal with the cool stuff we're doing.
Do even cooler stuff.
Over and over.
This isn't a game where something is set-combo based or repetitive or limited in action at any given moment, leaving it completely untranslatable to/from any other complex and dynamic thing that falls into any these (SF combos and resets or leveling in Mobas or positions with turns in Chess for examples of each)
It's dynamic to such an extent that it's literally just a big mess.
A big ****ing mess of cool **** where you can play for ages and as long as you're still trying to figure out how to do cooler **** you'll ALWAYS find it, because it's THAT dynamic.
PM is another outlet for us all to do more (a LOT more) of this really cool ****.
That's 100% it right there.
Nothing else.
- Don't get hit by the things you don't want to get hit by, and hit people with the things you want to hit them with.
^That can be summed up as
- Do cooler stuff
^That can be summed up as
- Smash
The thing that's special about Project M, is that we have somewhat more control over the Tier List than in almost any other case with something this dynamic.
Tier List, means something VERY specific here.
Smash (PM) is a game.
A game implies to play. (playplay)
To play means to explore, to screw around with whatever substance/content is there to be screwed around with.
We're going to explore the game, for a long time. Play the **** out of it until all of the cool **** we can possible find has been done, and we'll still find more.
When people play (playplay) in such a way, and to such a direction, that they've become VERY GOOD at the game...
AKA, when we do this...
Over and over...
And eventually get to really see what parts of the cool stuff, and what kinds of cool things, WORK after it's all painted a little clearer for us...
We get an end-game.
How much of the 'cool stuff' stays in-tact and functional at that level of exploration (play) [playplay] is then clear, and we get the dynamics to flesh-out at that level of exploration for us to understand just how COOL the game is for competition purposes. (People would understand why they like Melee with at least some sense if people understood this at all)
What PM gets to determine, is this.
Control over the cool stuff where it counts for competition purposes (people facing off against each other to do cool stuff who have explored the doing-of-cool-stuff to this extent, the level of fully-fleshed-out-cool-**** etc just as posted above)
THAT is why a Tier List for Project M is ACTUALLY of any use, and why it's actually VERY substantial to the game. A long-term extremely flexible 'substance/content that we want to explore dynamically' has to be VERY DYNAMIC in this way. In the 'coolness' areas of PLAY.
What a 'PM patch' determines isn't balance of characters on a practical sense of top-level play, it's an attempt to make top-level play between players in a practical sense, REALLY ****ING COOL.
Nothing to do with BALANCE between the CHARACTERS
All to do with COOLNESS within a BALANCE.
Nobody likes playing OR watching a lop-sided match-up.
^That alone is why 'balance' is ever directly discussed.
Not 'fairness' but following the cause-and-effect of this to both the root and result, is coolness.
We want things cool, and being very unfair easily sucks a lot of coolness out of the play (playplay)
Nobody likes to watch a Fox laser camping a Zelda for 8 minutes on a top platform, or IC hand-offs on every Grab they get with Nana near, or Olimar missing an Up-B to the ledge because of a glitch, or DK camping to charge his punch while fishing for Grabs every single stock, or planking on a ledge in brawl or kirby platform camping the top of hyrule in 64.
Where do you think backlash comes from when ZSS grab quirks are normalized? It's really cool, and functional, but it's functional as it is now too. So it's not BALANCE for better or worse, it's COOLNESS within a balance that is removed for the sake of balance within characters (match-ups) alone, which doesn't cut it in terms of something being in line with what we CAN do with control over THIS KIND OF Tier List.
AKA, coolness sacrificed for balance is where fun dies.
Everyone wants to the fun to be in full-force at this Tier-List caliber level of exploration.
The balance is about coolness. Not character functionality.
Tethers weren't nerfed because they were OP to play with/against/around.
They were nerfed because they were NOT COOL to play with/against/around.
Why were they not cool to play with/against/around?
Because they were OP to play with/against/around.
If that difference is understood, and PLAYED to, then everything falls into place.
Jiggs Rest set-ups are cool. You know when it would be a lot LESS cool? If every Grab lead to a Rest, and Rest went through shields.
The centralization of things is fine, but if Jiggs ever was tweaked to be MORE centralized on this, rather than diversified for more coolness, she would lose dynamics. The balance is in there somewhere, but FUN WITHIN PLAY is the root.
Snake C4 stuff would be cool, and it's fine to be centralized on things, but if it becomes so centralized that you just get another DK/Jiggs with 1 game-plan and every stock/every dynamic of play (playplay) [exploring] is the same route, it becomes NOT COOL
What's also funny, is how Snake presses more buttons and looks COOLER within his centralization, so gets catered to while the others don't. Guaranteed, coolness comes before balance here too. Whether those who adjust these things know it or not.
When I was developing DotA (1, way before DotA2 was a thing), we had very distinct things. There was a team of us that was very much responsible for the game ending up as the dynamic ****-fest it eventually became, and everyone knows where that game has gone.
One example is how we centralized things to insure non-normalization while still being fitting for the game.
Lifestealer was an example. A single-target damage dealing Hero with no 'real' disables or ways of dealing with crowds or being overly mobile. He would jump in someone else, hopefully able to do all that for him, and use opportunistic things like this to find a target and do his damage.
For years, there were people cycling in and out of the team and once in a while it would come up to give the Hero something to clear creeps (trash/mobs) or whatever else, but we always went back to him having his 'role' (centralization) to insure the dynamics of the game remained. A team game, with unique and quirky things. Often he was considered strong, often weak, nothing really changed with him, but because of his quirks NOT being catered to the development of the way people played the game, he always fluctuated.
Because he was ****ed up. Really. Turns out after DotA2 is released, things change over, eventually he's given better disables, a way of clearing creeps in an area, and the entire game is catered to jumping in and exploding everything. Him, and the game around him was catered to have commentators shout more and skinner-box the game to no end.
We all knew he was broken, in the sense that he was quirky and counter-play heavy both as and against and with and around him. That was the game the whole time. Leave so much to be desired but such a niche to play with that there was no way he was strong OR weak.
When he was given more 'dynamics' to his abilities and what he could do, he was LESS dynamic as a Hero in the game. When he was normalized to be less quirky and dynamic, he was broken and had to be fixed repeatedly.
Every game takes this route if it's repeatedly updated without an understand of the depth that balance means.
Balance in coolness (quirks, brokenness, leaving so much to explore in SOME WAY) is what makes a Tier List count.
Otherwise, might as well play Brawl.
And it goes both ways.
Snake was centralized, quirky, counter-play heavy, and dynamic because of all of those things. It was as linear as it gets, but deceptively NOT linear because of how dynamic that centralized game is. PM patches have catered to this, but they didn't have to. It can easily go too far given this is already where people will explore, where people will play, where we will find more and more cool stuff that COUNTS because it's his quirk, his center, his explore-able territory. What would make it more-so, would be a toning down of its effectiveness, because more exploration will be possible/required/FUN to get that center to come into play/action.
Patches did the opposite with ZSS, as she was counter-play heavy, quirky, and dynamic due to these aspects. A very non-linear character who was seen as linear due to these quirks as if they were centralized tools simply because of how easy to explore, to play with, to do stuff that COUNTS with them because they were her quirks, her center. Rather than the way Snake is easily seen to have a 'cool' center he plays TO, she could have had a 'cool' center she plays FROM.
This might seem complicated but...
Again, all of this has been said.
Everything about 'why was Bowser nerfed' to 'why isn't Fox nerfed'
It's not for the reasons everyone seems to think.
Coolness > all.
Tethers imbalanced? No, their mechanics once used are NOT COOL (and Ivy recovering overall due to this)
Fox imbalanced? No, his optimal choices are NOT COOL (though cool stuff DOES happen because Smash)
DK/Jiggs imbalanced? No, their centralized game is NOT COOL (would be even worse if this was catered to like other less-centralized characters could be)
No complaints or commendations regarding Tier List stuff in this thread has ever been about Balance among Characters.
That's a false wall that's easy to identify with and understand.
Whenever anyone discusses a Project M Tier List they're talking about 1 thing, whether they mean to or not.
"When a person is doing all they can do to beat another person, is it really ****ing cool ****, or is it worth changing? BECAUSE. WE. MIGHT. TOTALLY. BE. ABLE. TO. MAKE. ****. EVEN. COOLER."
That is a PM Tier List root
On that note.
Playing.
Exploring, screwing around with the substance/content there to be screwed around with.
This again.
Any moment you do an action (mental or physical) in the game, that is not something you would WANT to do if you could choose anything from THAT MOMENT where the action is made...
That's no longer you playing.
Playing, is when you're doing the things you would choose to do if you could. Playing, is when you're actively exploring the substance/content you're interacting with, with your attention and perspective. (mind-stuff)
This isn't about technical button pressing, etc, it's volitional action that counts, exclusively.
Play the game.
There's a quote that all the locals get me to regurgitate to any player that comes through... so I have to say it at least once a week to a new local or an OOS player.
Become fluent to play, rather than play to become fluent.
The same concept applies to anything. You don't play hockey to get in shape, you get in shape to play hockey. Same thing for Smash.
Figure out what it means to be fluently playing Smash, and learn to do that, then apply that to your play.
Nobody should have to play NEARLY as much as they do to be much better than they are.
I've said it many times, and InfinityC just reminded me by saying the meta-game is stagnant now, as if it's more stagnant now than other times.
It has ALWAYS been stagnant. It might sound negative or degrading or pessimistic, but it's not at all. It's a path, just like any other path. I've probably echo'd in this thread about how everyone overplays themselves into fluency rather than becoming fluent to play. Elaborating on that infinite times by now in private coaching sessions with top-end melee players to random newbs on these smashboards forums.
It happened with Melee and it happens with PM just the same.
I watched a year of everyone from SW to chillin to Prof play a Wolf like a Fox non-stop without actually taking seemingly a single step into where their head is at when playing. You think they can't explore characters? Watch them play any other character or game to-date, there was something else at play, and the minds involved were either stuck somewhere else, or found new roots elsewhere after a time of muck.
The entire meta-game was muck from day 1 of 2.1 and it has NEVER accelerated beyond the natural bumps of 'progress' that come when an entire mass-populace plays a game to no end. Fluency comes, but this doesn't have to be a background effect of excessive time and effort.
Learn the opposite.
Everyone is overplaying themselves into fluency, rather than becoming fluent to play.
Learn the opposite.
To play means to explore.
Exploring will lead you somewhere, perhaps to a root of something else.
Probably some kind of mental contents.
You obviously pay attention to SOMETHING when you're playing Smash.
Do you know what it is?
Maybe start paying attention to whatever you're paying attention to.
Something cool happens... pay attention to the fact you thought that was cool.
Something frustrates you... pay attention to the fact that you're frustrated.
There's no effort involved, no strain involved, no major thing happens circumstantially.
It's there, but you see it a little differently.
No thing forces a change in mental disposition more than a change in circumstance.
You just have to use it.
That's the difference maker for the end-game.
The Top-Tier of any Tier-List.
Smash is good like that.
I couldn't count the number of times I mentioned this to music-gods or writing-gods or any kind of 'master-of-their-art' (including melee-gods as I beat them all at their own game) but this is all I ever really said back in my down-from-the-valley days and new-wave-forum-posting days.
Before some more rooted things (Vipassana/etc)
Smash was the best intellectual and spiritual teaching and learning tool I ever had.
Use that **** well, and do the coolest **** you can do.
To improve means to become different towards what is better.
To become different means to change.
Change, therefore, is the only way anything can ever improve.
Project shall we collectively make the coolest (Smash) game in the world Much?
Keep it going PM community, dev team, and Smashers at large.
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The Baron
Smash Apprentice
@
InfinityCollision
Yer dead to me. You just made me feel more terrible than I already did about the state of wolf and the wolf forums. They were pretty much dead when I first got here and still dead now, especially the match up thread. I created it to revive a thread that seemed dead and some people came out the woodwork but ultimately not enough was done and it's mainly my fault.
@TimeMuffinPhD was already a leader there and I don't know where he is now but other than him and chef2, anyone who came to the thread either didn't frequent it or was just visiting one of our few character specific match up threads. No real activity or real development. To be honest the best thing that we have on that thread is the shield pressure guide chef2 made for wolf. Otherwise not much info is being spread outside the skype group, and most players who don't know wolf just flock to chillin who barely plays it anyway.
As such, I feel like all the beginner or new wolf players don't play him because to be completely honest, it's stupid hard to try and develop characters and the fact that the most known player is actually just a fox player, there is no reason to develop or discover the character over fox and falco. And at the heart of this, I think this is mostly my fault. Sure I can make the excuse of that I have no time no, I ****ing hate the spoiler system in smashboards, etc, but when it comes down to it, me and the other wolf community leaders really don't do enough. And this is honestly true for all forums.
With melee top tiers, you either don't really do much development on the character, or you just go to the melee forums. With characters that are eclipsed by better similar characters(wolf) no one actually plays the character and so the forums dies because no one visits or wants to develop it. If your character is considered low tier garbage, true or not (Bowser, Icies), you've got **** for development since no one plays low tiers unless they are casuals (stereotype but there is a trend) and to be completely honest, no casual would visit the technical, theorycrafting part of the game. Only a few characters like squirtle have people actively devoping and advertising their character constantly but we still ***** aand moan about how our characters are getting no development.
We have to advertise. We have to promote. Instead of making 500 gfys of some cool combo with no DI or teching etc on places that people are more lkely to frequent, we need to post knowledge. We need to post tips. No one is willing to lab because melee players have done it for them and the thought of that is daunting. Who am I, one small person, to try and lab and discover the potential of this character? You are pone person, but there is more than you. Chef2 was one person. TimeMuffin is one person. Thane is one person. Infinity is one person. I'M ONE PERSON. But Mango is also one person. ZeRo is also one person. M2K IS ALSO ONE PERSON.
But the characters didn't develop by just one person. It was multiple, tens, twenties, hundreds. these forums are one of the best places to promote info. We need to make it clear that if ther is some weird, obscure, unknown glitch or technique you just discovered in your mothers basement, then you need to post it. You need to make it known, It might be ****ing useless. It might be pointless. But I guarantee you that it does so much more than one more gfycat of a combo or one more meme. Nausica is right. We play this game to do cool ****. But we need more guys like @odds to help discover the cool ****. The practical ****. The ****ty, disgusting **** so that we can use it, clean it, polish, and hang that **** up.
edit: also @
Soft Serve
is the homie in the wolf forums as well. Sorry for not crediting you earlier
edit 2: line breaks edition
InfinityCollision
Yer dead to me. You just made me feel more terrible than I already did about the state of wolf and the wolf forums. They were pretty much dead when I first got here and still dead now, especially the match up thread. I created it to revive a thread that seemed dead and some people came out the woodwork but ultimately not enough was done and it's mainly my fault. @TimeMuffinPhD was already a leader there and I don't know where he is now but other than him and chef2, anyone who came to the thread either didn't frequent it or was just visiting one of our few character specific match up threads. No real activity or real development. To be honest the best thing that we have on that thread is the shield pressure guide chef2 made for wolf. Otherwise not much info is being spread outside the skype group, and most players who don't know wolf just flock to chillin who barely plays it anyway.
As such, I feel like all the beginner or new wolf players don't play him because to be completely honest, it's stupid hard to try and develop characters and the fact that the most known player is actually just a fox player, there is no reason to develop or discover the character over fox and falco. And at the heart of this, I think this is mostly my fault. Sure I can make the excuse of that I have no time no, I ****ing hate the spoiler system in smashboards, etc, but when it comes down to it, me and the other wolf community leaders really don't do enough. And this is honestly true for all forums.
With melee top tiers, you either don't really do much development on the character, or you just go to the melee forums. With characters that are eclipsed by better similar characters(wolf) no one actually plays the character and so the forums dies because no one visits or wants to develop it. If your character is considered low tier garbage, true or not (Bowser, Icies), you've got **** for development since no one plays low tiers unless they are casuals (stereotype but there is a trend) and to be completely honest, no casual would visit the technical, theorycrafting part of the game. Only a few characters like squirtle have people actively devoping and advertising their character constantly but we still ***** aand moan about how our characters are getting no development.
We have to advertise. We have to promote. Instead of making 500 gfys of some cool combo with no DI or teching etc on places that people are more lkely to frequent, we need to post knowledge. We need to post tips. No one is willing to lab because melee players have done it for them and the thought of that is daunting. Who am I, one small person, to try and lab and discover the potential of this character? You are pone person, but there is more than you. Chef2 was one person. TimeMuffin is one person. Thane is one person. Infinity is one person. I'M ONE PERSON. But Mango is also one person. ZeRo is also one person. M2K IS ALSO ONE PERSON.
But the characters didn't develop by just one person. It was multiple, tens, twenties, hundreds. these forums are one of the best places to promote info. We need to make it clear that if ther is some weird, obscure, unknown glitch or technique you just discovered in your mothers basement, then you need to post it. You need to make it known, It might be ****ing useless. It might be pointless. But I guarantee you that it does so much more than one more gfycat of a combo or one more meme. Nausica is right. We play this game to do cool ****. But we need more guys like @odds to help discover the cool ****. The practical ****. The ****ty, disgusting **** so that we can use it, clean it, polish, and hang that **** up.
edit: also @
Soft Serve
is the homie in the wolf forums as well. Sorry for not crediting you earlieredit 2: line breaks edition
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Player -0
Smash Hero
Nausicaa made a huge post in which I'm somewhat confused. Something about stuff being cool.
@
Frost | Odds
That's why I made the part below that note saying I don't have an opinion on whether they should or shouldn't be able to do so. I only said if it were to be considered it would need to be closely monitored.
Considering the way the PMDT has been doing the balances I doubt this will be implemented or if it was it'll be slowly. You never know though, that's what makes updates so exciting.
@
Frost | Odds
That's why I made the part below that note saying I don't have an opinion on whether they should or shouldn't be able to do so. I only said if it were to be considered it would need to be closely monitored. Considering the way the PMDT has been doing the balances I doubt this will be implemented or if it was it'll be slowly. You never know though, that's what makes updates so exciting.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
On that note, did you know that Bowser can now run offstage and reverse side-B to grab ledge?
Also @
Nausicaa
is completely insane, but mostly right, as usual. I want cool toys plsAlso, I've been strongly considering beginning a podcast that's all about the niche cool stuff, and in-depth matchup analysis and demonstration via netplay/screencap. Not just for Bowser. I want to do my best to advance the meta basically, and help people do more cool stuff in general.
@anyone: If that sounds like your bag, please get in touch.
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Player -0
Smash Hero
I'd be down to watch Pit stuff. If I'm getting the right vibe from your post.
Might try to figure out Nausicaa's post but I saw tethers not being cool and I sadfaced. Tether utility is pretty cut down right now. Expanding is hard when bleh.
Might try to figure out Nausicaa's post but I saw tethers not being cool and I sadfaced. Tether utility is pretty cut down right now. Expanding is hard when bleh.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Dude.@
edit: also @
The enter key.
Use it, please.
That hurts to read without line breaks.
@
The Baron
I used to keep an archive of the whole skype group chat log and people used to set aside the good parts but I'm not that dedicated to the character anymore. I agree its sad af that people look to chillin instead of lucky/neon who are pushing the character further, but honestly wolf is pretty straight forward and development wise the players just need to get better at comboing and using blaster in neutral.
I do get what you mean though, I try to pump out new content and threads in the diddy boards and get things going in the diddy skype but it all gets ignored lol. Other than watching videos, talking with Searing Sorrow about punishgame expansion, and long training sessions with heysuess, I do feel like I've been on my own with developing my diddy (which is great and horrible at the same time).
Its pretty bad when most discussions happen in skype groups or reddit threads and no one takes that good info out and compiles it, even if it is mostly just the same info over and over again. I keep notes on everything for myself, but its really hard for new people to jump into characters when they don't necessarily have a good background into how spacies work.
Wolf is pretty straight forward in all aspects of his game, Imagine how awful it would be for Lucas or MewTwo players to get into the character if there wasn't groundwork/active threads for them.
ANYWAY tire lusts
The Baron
I used to keep an archive of the whole skype group chat log and people used to set aside the good parts but I'm not that dedicated to the character anymore. I agree its sad af that people look to chillin instead of lucky/neon who are pushing the character further, but honestly wolf is pretty straight forward and development wise the players just need to get better at comboing and using blaster in neutral.I do get what you mean though, I try to pump out new content and threads in the diddy boards and get things going in the diddy skype but it all gets ignored lol. Other than watching videos, talking with Searing Sorrow about punishgame expansion, and long training sessions with heysuess, I do feel like I've been on my own with developing my diddy (which is great and horrible at the same time).
Its pretty bad when most discussions happen in skype groups or reddit threads and no one takes that good info out and compiles it, even if it is mostly just the same info over and over again. I keep notes on everything for myself, but its really hard for new people to jump into characters when they don't necessarily have a good background into how spacies work.
Wolf is pretty straight forward in all aspects of his game, Imagine how awful it would be for Lucas or MewTwo players to get into the character if there wasn't groundwork/active threads for them.
ANYWAY tire lusts
Really dumb:
Really good:
Less (but still) really good:
perfectly viable:
Still good but really gotta work for it:
You can get by:
Really good:
Less (but still) really good:
perfectly viable:
Still good but really gotta work for it:
You can get by:
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tasteless gentleman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 492
Odds so I have an odd (get it?) bandaid, how about give bowser a smash 4 custom fire breath? where it reaches far and drains fast or the fire balls, that would certainly help neutral? Oh yea also give him back all the meat 3.6 stole from him
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
you know it puts a tier in my eye to see olimar in the "viable" tier in tier lists now 8'^)
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
But he has always been able to do this
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Uh, no. He could moonwalk and side b right before leaving the ledge, allowing the MW momentum to carry him off, but the move was too slow to be able to grab ledge after simply running off the stage and hitting side b.
I have no control over what the PMDT chooses to do with Bowser.
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Vashimus
Smash Master
Really dumb:
Really good:
Less (but still) really good:
perfectly viable:
Still good but really gotta work for it:
You can get by:
I'm assuming 2nd or 3rd tier.
Life
Smash Hero
I see what you did there.
Also @
Frost | Odds
that sounds fantastic. I don't have the analytical or gameplay chops of some of the others around here, but if you need anything let me know.
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(They were both on paper, didn't make it to my keyboard I guess)
I'm assuming 2nd or 3rd tier.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
I'm sure I don't even need to say it given that you've seen me ramble about Mewtwo on Skype ad nauseam, but I'm always down to talk about niche cool stuff.
Kinda springboarding off what @
Nausicaa
said about playing to do cool stuff and fluency and whatnot: much of my time actually playing PM outside of competition is basically screwing around, deliberately (but in an intuitive sort of way, rather than by force) doing off-the-wall **** and taking mental notes on the results. It's good fun. That keeps me engaged, and deliberately side-stepping my comfort zones in favor of the unknown gives me more opportunities to find cool things. If I start slipping into more practiced options then I'll take a break, keep myself fresh. When I revisit things I found previously I'll map out the relevant details in debug and then once again take a break. Let things sink in, give my brain time to process things without forcing anything. Later on I'll come back, work it into practice, try to get comfortable with the execution. This is coupled to a mental process of improvement through analysis and theorycraft. Nothing forced, just taking in details and letting understanding of bigger things flow from comprehension of smaller details and individual parts. One way or another I constantly find things. Through that comes understanding and from that, improvement.
Breaks are good. Something else Naus has talked about in the past. Let your mind and body rest. You'll return to the game with a much better state of mind and sometimes you'll surprise yourself with what you come up with in the meantime.
If at any point in this process I find myself frustrated or in any state of not-fun then I just stop. Smash is fun, always try to make it more fun. Do not shy away from fun; embrace it. We play Smash because we find it fun. The PMDT works on PM to make Smash (hopefully) more fun for all involved.
If more people approached each character - any character, even the Melee tops - with this sense of open-minded exploration and wonder, if they documented what they found and shared it with others, the results would be incredible. Growth that reinforces tendencies towards growth, both on an individual and communal level. You don't even have to be good, you just have to be willing to look with an open mind. The act of looking with the proper mentality will direct your progression towards goodness.
I would love to see 4.0 cater to that wonder and love of the game. So many opportunities. So much cool **** waiting to be found. Give us more, but in a way that makes the game undeniably better on all levels. Refine it again later if necessary, but don't shy away from the initial opportunity.
@
DrinkingFood
actually it's "in private".
Kinda springboarding off what @
Nausicaa
said about playing to do cool stuff and fluency and whatnot: much of my time actually playing PM outside of competition is basically screwing around, deliberately (but in an intuitive sort of way, rather than by force) doing off-the-wall **** and taking mental notes on the results. It's good fun. That keeps me engaged, and deliberately side-stepping my comfort zones in favor of the unknown gives me more opportunities to find cool things. If I start slipping into more practiced options then I'll take a break, keep myself fresh. When I revisit things I found previously I'll map out the relevant details in debug and then once again take a break. Let things sink in, give my brain time to process things without forcing anything. Later on I'll come back, work it into practice, try to get comfortable with the execution. This is coupled to a mental process of improvement through analysis and theorycraft. Nothing forced, just taking in details and letting understanding of bigger things flow from comprehension of smaller details and individual parts. One way or another I constantly find things. Through that comes understanding and from that, improvement.Breaks are good. Something else Naus has talked about in the past. Let your mind and body rest. You'll return to the game with a much better state of mind and sometimes you'll surprise yourself with what you come up with in the meantime.
If at any point in this process I find myself frustrated or in any state of not-fun then I just stop. Smash is fun, always try to make it more fun. Do not shy away from fun; embrace it. We play Smash because we find it fun. The PMDT works on PM to make Smash (hopefully) more fun for all involved.
If more people approached each character - any character, even the Melee tops - with this sense of open-minded exploration and wonder, if they documented what they found and shared it with others, the results would be incredible. Growth that reinforces tendencies towards growth, both on an individual and communal level. You don't even have to be good, you just have to be willing to look with an open mind. The act of looking with the proper mentality will direct your progression towards goodness.
I would love to see 4.0 cater to that wonder and love of the game. So many opportunities. So much cool **** waiting to be found. Give us more, but in a way that makes the game undeniably better on all levels. Refine it again later if necessary, but don't shy away from the initial opportunity.
@
DrinkingFood
actually it's "in private".
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
fml one sec
fix'd
fix'd
Last edited:
Plz don't take that advice from nausicaa and try new things. Having fun in Super Smash Brothers is for nerds.
Don't expand your mind. Expand your dong. Thank you for reading my important PSA.
Meanwhile, in Captain Falcon land, I get to do the same stuff while you jabronis gotta evolve some new meta or something blah blah lot of work. Damn I'm glad this character is good
Edit: Uthrow nerf on Falcon won't save your character, where is your god now?!?
Don't expand your mind. Expand your dong. Thank you for reading my important PSA.
Meanwhile, in Captain Falcon land, I get to do the same stuff while you jabronis gotta evolve some new meta or something blah blah lot of work. Damn I'm glad this character is good
Edit: Uthrow nerf on Falcon won't save your character, where is your god now?!?
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