Tier List Speculation

[D e l t a]

@Lens Sorry if that came off as rude / throwing misc. info for no reason. I hear time and time again how his Upsmash is insane, or Dair is a stupid move, etc. OU Upsmash range IMO is fairly silly in terms of horizontal range, and could use a slight vertical decrease, but not by much. From a balance perspective, the move has decent startup and high end lag coupled with a good amount of aerial range it covers over 11 active frames. I think the damage output maybe be a bit much, but it's not unreasonable. Maybe lower damage by a few % and compensate the knockback? Outside of that, his Upsmash is fine.

Getting hit by random Dsmash or even situationally is more of a reward / power trade on Lucas' part. If Lucas gets hit out of Dsmash or only 1 part of the attack connects when using both hits, he loses the charge. This includes missing hit 1 and landing hit 2. So for ledge guards & jab resets, it would have to be spaced & timed correctly. From that perspective it's fairly reasonable as well.

 

[4tlas]

So since the PMDT seem to be willing to nerf things that aren't overpowered just because they are "poorly designed" (which is fine reasoning, as long as they compensate the character overall elsewhere), can we also talk about buffing things that are poorly designed but perhaps strong?

I've heard the argument made many times that Sheik is a great character and can't afford to be buffed, but for the love of Sakurai can we please give her a usable SideB? It doesn't have to even be that good. Hell, the situational use of Melee chain would be good enough. Right now it is almost literally useless. I only say almost because I gimped a CFal who was hanging off the Warioware edge, being cheeky. I couldn't have needled him because of the platform height, so (somehow) chain was the best option.

 

[Boiko]

Speaking of Sheik, get rid of transform already, thanks. I lose to Zelda as Ness, CP Squirtle, beat Zelda, they picks Sheik, I lose with Squirtle. Can't counterpick Ness, because they'll just transform. I lose because I literally can't CP.

Fair and balanced.

 

[GP&B]

B-but if they put in the effort to learn both characters then they clearly deserve it.

 

[steelguttey]

yes, the sheik skill ceiling is monumental. (ik ur kidding but ppl actually use that excuse)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Okay so I'm both drunk af and on my phone right now, but I can't help noticing that one of the guys I convincingly crushed at NWM7 just won WFs at Mother****ing EVO.

EDIT: pls don't mind the ****ing. I need this. <.<

 

[Chevy]

Okay so I'm both drunk af and on my phone right now, but I can't help noticing that one of the guys I convincingly crushed at NWM7 just won WFs at Mother****ing EVO.

Bladewise is good, yo. Just kind of highlights how MU knowledge intensive 3.5 Boozy was.

 

[4tlas]

Speaking of Sheik, get rid of transform already, thanks. I lose to Zelda as Ness, CP Squirtle, beat Zelda, they picks Sheik, I lose with Squirtle. Can't counterpick Ness, because they'll just transform. I lose because I literally can't CP.

Fair and balanced.

Think of it as one character, Sheilda. Does your counterpick counter Sheilda? If no, then it isn't a counterpick. There are characters that counter both halves. There are also characters that get bopped by both, like yours. Would you be upset if your secondary couldn't counterpick some other character? No, you'd either pick up another character or learn to play with whichever one has the better matchup. You can do the same here!

 

[Boiko]

Think of it as one character, Sheilda. Does your counterpick counter Sheilda? If no, then it isn't a counterpick. There are characters that counter both halves. There are also characters that get bopped by both, like yours. Would you be upset if your secondary couldn't counterpick some other character? No, you'd either pick up another character or learn to play with whichever one has the better matchup. You can do the same here!

That's dumb AF that I need to counter two viable characters at once. That doesn't make any ****ing sense.

 

[4tlas]

That's dumb AF that I need to counter two viable characters at once. That doesn't make any ****ing sense.

I think you misunderstood what I said. They are one character. One character with a flexible moveset but with only 1 half of it active at a time. Fox is (most likely) still better than both of them put together, because he has a more powerful, more flexible moveset that is available at all times. Or Samus, who now has Ice mode, who can greatly improve her floaty matchups by changing her moveset. Find a character that counters the whole thing.

 

[GP&B]

The comparison still falls flat because it's a move that literally makes you a different character in every single way.

 

[steelguttey]

one character with a ****ing matchup spread that is losing to fox and maybe one other character. why not idk, have characters with ****ING WEAKNESSES? its ridiculous

 

[Boiko]

I think you misunderstood what I said. They are one character. One character with a flexible moveset but with only 1 half of it active at a time. Fox is (most likely) still better than both of them put together, because he has a more powerful, more flexible moveset that is available at all times. Or Samus, who now has Ice mode, who can greatly improve her floaty matchups by changing her moveset. Find a character that counters the whole thing.

Instead, you should stop looking at it as one character and see it what it really is, two.
Next time I play I'll just press some buttons and switch to my secondary real quick. No, it's fine, just pick someone who beats them both.

 

[SmokeOut]

Just curious, who does everyone think might be the best character? I see a lot of people praise Fox and put him at the top of their tier lists? Is it a common opinion that he is considered the overall best in PM?

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's almost a universal opinion among top PM players that Fox is the best char in the game. Dissenters are almost always convinced it's wolf. Both are problems imo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Also if anyone thinks our local Fox boss isn't good, well, pls check the stream. Sorry, I'd avoid double posting were I not on my phone. This thing can't load smashboards basically at all. Go alphicans!

 

[4tlas]

The comparison still falls flat because it's a move that literally makes you a different character in every single way.

I can understand this sentiment. It is a very radical change.

one character with a ****ing matchup spread that is losing to fox and maybe one other character. why not idk, have characters with ****ING WEAKNESSES? its ridiculous

Each half of her moveset has weaknesses. They also don't cover each other entirely.

Instead, you should stop looking at it as one character and see it what it really is, two.
Next time I play I'll just press some buttons and switch to my secondary real quick. No, it's fine, just pick someone who beats them both.

I wouldn't be opposed. Just because other characters don't have alternate movesets doesn't mean they all shouldn't.



I can agree that the abuse case of switching for the better matchup is undesirable, and counterpick "immunity" is also frustrating. Instead of outright removing Transform, perhaps a change could be done to reduce the effectiveness of that abuse case while preserving Sheilda as a whole. How about a cooldown on Transform, and you start each stock as the character you selected at the CSS? Or remove the ability (or the invuln) while Transforming from the respawn platform while starting each stock as the selected character?

 

[Boiko]

How about you just remove it instead of balancing around it? That's a fatal flaw for design.

 

[4tlas]

How about you just remove it instead of balancing around it? That's a fatal flaw for design.

Having alternate movesets? How so?

I'm also not suggesting balancing around it, that would be if I were forcing Zelda or Sheik players to play a nerfed character because Transform exists. I'm suggesting balancing it, itself. You say someone can just switch to the other half for the sake of a matchup and that's a problem, so I say we should talk about finding a way to remove that while keeping the cool and fun part of a character with an alter-ego.

 

[dirtboy345]

Speaking of Sheik, get rid of transform already, thanks. I lose to Zelda as Ness, CP Squirtle, beat Zelda, they picks Sheik, I lose with Squirtle. Can't counterpick Ness, because they'll just transform. I lose because I literally can't CP.

Fair and balanced.

Squirtle beats Sheik too

 

[Life]

Squirtle beats Sheik too

Tell us more. I've been frustrated by my local Sheik for a long time--used to bop him but then he learned the matchup and now I can't seem to find a big enough edge to beat him.

 

[Sardonyx]

The amount of people that legitimately use both characters (Sheik & Zelda) is small.
This discussion went on months ago and the general consensus was that until there's an actual reason for it to be removed (it being unhealthy to the meta, stuff like that), it won't be looked into. There have been smaller things than transform that have been removed already because of how bad they were for the meta.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Transform is a silly mechanic. @ dirtboy345 , can you make me a good squirtman before LTC?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Transform is a silly mechanic. @ dirtboy345 , can you make me a good squirtman before LTC?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Having alternate movesets? How so?

I'm also not suggesting balancing around it, that would be if I were forcing Zelda or Sheik players to play a nerfed character because Transform exists. I'm suggesting balancing it, itself. You say someone can just switch to the other half for the sake of a matchup and that's a problem, so I say we should talk about finding a way to remove that while keeping the cool and fun part of a character with an alter-ego.

How exactly would you do that without screwing over players that would prefer to specialize in Sheik or Zelda? Your proposal essentially eliminates that as an option and would force players into learning Sheilda, which seems backwards given the deliberate move to separate them on the CSS.

re: tether mechanics: just give tether latch a goddamn hitbox already. All it has to do is free up the ledge if someone gets hit by it.

 

[dirtboy345]

Tell us more. I've been frustrated by my local Sheik for a long time--used to bop him but then he learned the matchup and now I can't seem to find a big enough edge to beat him.

I'm used to fighting sheik's from melee experience, his neutral is complete **** in comparison to yours, stuffing recovery is super easy, you ruin his neutral even more by ducking under needles. Dies fairly easily off the top, I just don't see what Sheik has that is supposed to be great against Squirtle, at least anything good she has going for her Squirtle can do harder, she's really not that great of a character imo.

Transform is a silly mechanic. @ dirtboy345 , can you make me a good squirtman before LTC?

no

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Every discussion regarding something of Zelda's, ever

 

[Boiko]

Ryoko's ears are tuned to the word transform.

@ dirtboy345 First time I played it and I won GF set 1 3-1 and set two was 3-2 last hit last stock. It wasn't a matter of the MU, it was just my experience.

 

[4tlas]

How exactly would you do that without screwing over players that would prefer to specialize in Sheik or Zelda? Your proposal essentially eliminates that as an option and would force players into learning Sheilda, which seems backwards given the deliberate move to separate them on the CSS.

Are you sure you read what I proposed correctly? I don't see how that prevents Zelda or Sheik play, since I was specifically going for enabling Zelda, Sheik, and Sheilda play while removing the pick-one-play-whole-match-as-other part.

I suggested forcing Zelda/Sheik to start each stock as the character they selected on the CSS, which prevents you from selecting one but actually playing the other all game. Of course she can still transform back immediately, which is why I suggested not allowing her to transform off of the platform. This means you can pick Zelda or Sheik on the CSS and still play them all game. It also means you can transform at other times, so Sheilda can be a thing. However, it means you will get punished for transforming just to play the other character, so the abuse case loses some effectiveness. Perhaps some other way can be brainstormed?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Could be so you can't do it while invincible, so you have to sacrifice an edgeguard/followup or get punished. Also lol at Odds tryin to main the smallest and largest turtle...

 

[DMG]

What's up with EVO PM, looks like a ton of DQ's or random results for like 50% of the bracket

Edit: Yeah heard from others that DQ's and drop outs happened en masse sorta. Shame to hear

 

[1FD]

That's pretty reasonable for a 1 frame window with relatively easy reference points with a good player attempting it, I'd think. Even if it were 2, still not remotely worth risking death to grab ledge like that. The difference between 50% consistency and 99.9% consistency is unimaginably huge in terms of practice hours.

This is the same reason I have gripes with the current difficulty of fortresshogging: the risk (and the required practice hours) doesn't/don't remotely match the reward.

there's a local well I guess he's at least like a few hours from me but still local
he used to play Doc in 2008 to 10 or something known as crispy
he's never been super good on anything but has taken out some decent names before like WA dbr players back in the day etc
he doesn't really play anymore either
The dude has about a 99% consistency with upb cancels and I'm purty shur it's a 1 frame thing
out of shield and ballz to the wallz pressure too it's nuts
played him a couple months ago and it was his first time playing in about 6 months or something
doubles even he just whips it out like it's an utilt or something
was like riding a bike
he landed literally every upb cancel he tried all night but maybe like 1 every 5 matches, and he would do at LEAST 5 a match against my spacies and ylink

1 frame destination is what my name means because 1 frame makes all the diff in a match because smash is stupid like that.
1 frame destruction 1 frame decision 1 frame difference
totally stole it from 1 frame dynamism tho which was an old bamesy tag because he's our local god and our sage
but **** that it's mine now

I live in a region where we do all-star versus when not enough people show up for doubles, so I'm biased in favor of character generalism. Been trying to cull the weak lately, got it down to the folks under my avatar more or less.

this is the NORM for all project m events we have here if bamesy is hosting because he's rigging the system to favor him
seriously not even fair it's so god forsakenly hard to adapt to a snake after fighting a gw

Fighting a Marth and it's all like don't get combod into spikes then BAM
Zard shows up and you get hit by a jab out of neutral and die off a flameshot off the side or upb off the top
HOW DO YOU DI THIS STUFF BRAIN HURTS



Allstar best mode tho

Wolf TL Kirby Ike are my 4 loves and project m allows me to do this

project m is so my bae
watched some evo today
but missed project m

melee gets me hype for smash tho
im leaving for a while but will be back one day and will arrive at my destination in 1 frame

keep bringin it baes

Adapting merely takes a different form when you're a specialist. Instead of switching characters, you adapt your play-style. More than anyone, a specialist is aware his strengths and weaknesses, and uses that knowledge to make the most out of the MU. In that sense, he is equipped to adapt.

Bruce Lee once said: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

Counters cannot exist without your own limitations, which you can overcome with training.

playing lots of different ways and characters is one of the best ways to force yourself to adapt
If you do it properly then that will translate VERY WELL to your other characters too like your main or whatever

practice the ken combo 10000 times and you'll be very good at the ken combo
do that and try a different kind of combo into finisher across a stage, and you'll be very fluid with every step in the process of learning how to do that whole thing and it'll come really quick
do both at once or one after another a back etc, and they'll translate to each other like they're making out with each other all tight and ****

science or something idonno

 

[Saproling]

How do people feel about Ivysaurs Neutral?

 

[1FD]

one of the peeps I played pm with the most in the last 2 years is literally is a Sheilda main
transforms all day one match
plays only one of them the next
plays only the other the next
transforms all day the next match
never know who he's gonna play or how much he'll play them

fun to fight I tell ya

I want allstar mode to be able to switch order somehow
like you pick 4, start the game as the first you pick, but when you die you can decide who the next char to come out will be

I think it's legit get at me



Ivy's neutral is meh at best
good enough cause her punish is crazybonkersamazinggood
she gets punished uberhard too tho

WINDBOX ON B IS THE BEST MOVE EVER OMG

 

[DMG]

I think Doc Upb cancel is more leniant than 1 frame. It's not particularly hard to do, however doing it OOS accurately against multiple shield pressure scenarios is quite difficult. I'm generally happy enough to get the Upb itself to come out OOS especially if no C-stick buffer is involved, props to that guy if he grinds out that cancel accurately against shield pressure. It's mad good and underrated

Edit: it may be one frame, found this somewhere


With the proper input, Dr. Mario can
hit with the first frame of attack
from the ground, and land in place
immediately after. Here are the
inputs:

Frame 3: forward
Frame 4: back
Dr. Mario will end up facing back

OR

Frame 2: anywhere but full forward
Frame 3: back
Frame 4: anywhere but back,
diagonals included (upback, downback)

 

[DrinkingFood]

How do people feel about Ivysaurs Neutral?

Razor leaf

 

[DMG]

Ivysaur neutral: pretend you're having fun playing Smash and then cheap-mccombodump their stocks

 

[Warzenschwein]

Wasn't there a post some pages ago implying stuff should be removed because it's "not cool"?

Sheilda is not cool at all. It's literally the gimmickest gimmick ever. I don't even think Sakurai thought about it as a good and interesting gameplay mechanic when he added it to Melee.

He probably thought "wow, Zelda can transform into Sheik in TLOZ, wouldn't it be dank as **** if we added it" and everyone was like "well ok it's doable mr. masterhero sableye but where's the point" and presto: we have whatever that is. A mechanic that looks like it was added solely for the fact that it was doable and canon.

If we had some kind of dual-character, I'd like to have one where transform is actually needed because both movesets complement each other. Sheilda is just 2 viable characters in one, like wtf is the point. Idc if you like it or not, just tell me how this isn't fundamentally ********.

Let's play in debug mode 24/7 so I can switch from Squirtle to Fox to Bowser Marth, if u fail to counterpick l2p no000bz

 

[JesteRace]

Yeah, two viable characters in one is pretty f***ing stupid. It's not even a debate.

 

[Dotcom]

Can we quickly talk about the fact that Cap'n Olimar, an astronaut of extra-terrestrial planets: Does not have a moonwalk?
Just thought it odd.