Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

All chars prob have moonwalks, just maybe of varying degrees of usefulness.

 

[Foo]

Having alternate movesets? How so?

I'm also not suggesting balancing around it, that would be if I were forcing Zelda or Sheik players to play a nerfed character because Transform exists. I'm suggesting balancing it, itself. You say someone can just switch to the other half for the sake of a matchup and that's a problem, so I say we should talk about finding a way to remove that while keeping the cool and fun part of a character with an alter-ego.

Sheik/zelda aren't alternate movesets. Ice and fire mode samus are alternate movesets. Sheik and Zelda are two completely different characters crudely duct taped together.

 

[Dotcom]

All chars prob have moonwalks, just maybe of varying degrees of usefulness.

Try to moonwalk with Olimar, post results.

 

[DMG]

Try to moonwalk with Olimar, post results.

You don't understand the depths of my laziness. I had to muster up a day's worth of effort just to reply to this. See you tomorrow

Edit: I lied. I just bumped a Brawl results thread from 2009 of an event I competed at. Can't believe that was 6 years ago

 

[Deleted member]

yes, the sheik skill ceiling is monumental. (ik ur kidding but ppl actually use that excuse)

as a sheik player, LLOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL no

no

sheik is easy like picking up lonely girlfriends at a smash event.

also i dont use transform because its bull**** and needed to go like 2-3 years ago

 

[D e l t a]

Until the day comes along where a player can play Sheik like Umbreon, KirbyKaze, M2K, etc then switch to Zelda and **** **** up like Zhime, the transform isn't that powerful

 

[Deleted member]

frankly i dont think transform is even good let alone powerful. i think its more like **** design that we took out of similar characters and betrays the ethos of the larger game. both characters generally have the same over-arching issue, which is losing to dashdance and having no real way to be threatening in neutral vs a talented player.

 

[steelguttey]

Until the day comes along where a player can play Sheik like Umbreon, KirbyKaze, M2K, etc then switch to Zelda and **** **** up like Zhime, the transform isn't that powerful

there was no top link players at any 3.0 majors, why did we nerf link?

TOURNAMENT RESULTS MEAN ABSOLUTELY ****ING NOTHING IF WE HAVE NO GODDAMNED PM MAJORS

 

[GP&B]

As said, characters have long since been receiving adjustments regardless of perceived strength. Transform is dumb.

 

[FreeGamer]

Maybe Transform would be a worthwhile concern if Zelda was a good character instead of being vastly inferior to Sheik.

 

[Chevy]

Speaking of things that don't belong in the game, why do we have a character that ignores our mechanic to keep the game constantly interactive?

 

[G13_Flux]

Speaking of things that don't belong in the game, why do we have a character that ignores our mechanic to keep the game constantly interactive?

DDD?

 

[Life]

Speaking of things that don't belong in the game, why do we have a character that ignores our mechanic to keep the game constantly interactive?

.... Be more vague. I think someone might have understood you.

 

[Chevy]

Lucario(DI)

 

[steelguttey]

yes when lucario touches you health bars appear and walls form on both sides of the stage. di is removed from the game. you get to choose 2 assist characters.

what are you saying.

 

[Narelex]

Lucario(DI)

Can't say I've had to deal with one that could string more then the basic combo's.

I'm going to assume ASC does some funky things with ability to escape? If so that sounds like an issue. Not being able to DI is a great indicator of a character having no counterplay while you're being comboed and I don't agree with it not helping if that is the case.

But again I have no clue because we have no high level Lucario's here

 

[Sardonyx]

Once again, until transform is harmful to the meta, it won't be removed. That was LITERALLY said months ago.

People want this game homogenized to the point where everybody can do the same things. It's ridiculous. If every character is practically the same, why play the game? The community is a large part of why I stopped playing. Remember when you could pretty much instantly act out of transform? That was pretty stupid. Until someone can think of an actual attack that can replace the utility of transform, it shouldn't be removed.

Also pls revert Zelda's manual detonation animation, she looks like she's trying to hug herself and it's just generally awkward looking.

 

[Narelex]

Once again, until transform is harmful to the meta, it won't be removed. That was LITERALLY said months ago.

People want this game homogenized to the point where everybody can do the same things. It's ridiculous. If every character is practically the same, why play the game? The community is a large part of why I stopped playing. Remember when you could pretty much instantly act out of transform? That was pretty stupid. Until someone can think of an actual attack that can replace the utility of transform, it shouldn't be removed.

Also pls revert Zelda's manual detonation animation, she looks like she's trying to hug herself and it's just generally awkward looking.

IF IT HAS TO STAY I think we just need to remove her ability to do it off the spawn platform tbh. She shouldn't be rewarded with a better MU for dying, she should have to open up enough space by killing her opponent to transform.

But if it does need to be removed, I could see replacing it with another cool spell would be a step in the right direction thematically.

Zelda shouldn't be worse as a character because she has Sheik as a crutch IMO and I'd prefer the two to be separate entities.

 

[Sardonyx]

I think we just need to remove her ability to do it off the spawn platform tbh. She shouldn't be rewarded with a better MU for dying, she should have to open up enough space by killing her opponent to transform.

But if it does need to be removed, I could see replacing it with another cool spell would be a step in the right direction thematically.

I'd be perfectly happy if she couldn't transform for say, 15 seconds after she spawns or something, or do something to make it riskier. If someone's opponent is transforming in neutral and they aren't punishing her, that's all on them.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Characters could also be heterogenized via meaningful mechanics that add something to the game BUT HELL NAW

 

[Boiko]

Once again, until transform is harmful to the meta, it won't be removed. That was LITERALLY said months ago.

People want this game homogenized to the point where everybody can do the same things. It's ridiculous. If every character is practically the same, why play the game? The community is a large part of why I stopped playing. Remember when you could pretty much instantly act out of transform? That was pretty stupid. Until someone can think of an actual attack that can replace the utility of transform, it shouldn't be removed.

Also pls revert Zelda's manual detonation animation, she looks like she's trying to hug herself and it's just generally awkward looking.

No, we want the game homogenized to the point where stupid **** like transform is removed. Your argument is literally the definition of a slippery slope, and I HATE quoting debate terms.

 

[Chevy]

yes when lucario touches you health bars appear and walls form on both sides of the stage. di is removed from the game. you get to choose 2 assist characters.

what are you saying.

I've avoided talking about Lucario before because I admittedly didn't know much about the character(though I always thought he didn't at all belong), but I think I understand enough now to properly convey my thoughts.

So from the perspective of someone who never played TFGs, Lucario's OHC system seems completely arbitrary. I believe it goes jab->tilts->smashes->not sure. But also neutral b charge can be cancelled with anything I think?(not sure on this because I know he has to cancel the charge with R/L) I don't know when aura has to be used during that series at all, or if it's just specials or whatever. Point being, it's super bizarre without the requisite background knowledge. I'm all for unique mechanics being in the game, but this seems more to me like a collection of random ways to ignore endlag.

His other mechanic is supercharged versions of his specials, this I'm mostly fine with(although the up-b follow-ups are a big part of the underlying non-interaction problem). My biggest complaint here is that since I started in 2.5 I thought his giant Aura Sphere looked really sloppy(slow speed plus abrupt disappearance).

Anyway, the end results seems to be Lucario players auto-piloting combos that they learned because they can keep you in hitstun the entire time. The thing that I see a lot of smash players take the most pride in is that our game almost always has some sort of interaction(even the dumb stuff like Fox up-throw->up-air).

I could probably get past all of the rando mechanics, but the character is also just boring to watch. Combos in smash are exciting not only because of tight execution, but because you are generally still outplaying your opponent while comboing them. Large strings are never true combos, it's a series of DI reads/reactions, tech-chases, and sometimes baiting an escape option to continue your punish. Lucario combos are boring not only because they're generally very repetitive(in my experience), but because all they really have to do is sometimes react to your DI when they go for up-b->up-air/n-air finisher.

3.5 Lucario just jumped at you backwards and repeatedly put his hands behind is back and turned you blue over and over again to lock you in hitstun, that was awful(this might still be the case on some characters).

On top of all this, he has a projectile that he doesn't even want to use at high level play(overcharged or not), and his up-b doesn't eat his jump for some reason(like 95% of the cast).

So yeah, flame me, enlighten me, justify this character.

EDIT: Burden of matchup knowledge for the other player seem pretty big against Lucario too(because of all this random stuff + how Aura works)

 

[steelguttey]

lucario is still following di, he doesnt have true combos at all that arent dashattack to uptilt. everything else you can di out of.

 

[Sardonyx]

No, we want the game homogenized to the point where stupid **** like transform is removed. Your argument is literally the definition of a slippery slope, and I HATE quoting debate terms.

How is it a definition of a slippery slope if I'm bringing up something an actual DT member said in defense of transform? Please tell me how. I think they know the game just a bit considering they're in charge of it.

Edit: I'd be all for the removal of transform if Zelda became a well designed character on par with sheik and got a move that actually helped her (lol phantom knight). As of right now, you have no reason to use Zelda besides just using a worse character.

 

[Life]

SDI will go a long way towards inhibiting Lucario as players get better at it, I think.

 

[Boiko]

How is it a definition of a slippery slope if I'm bringing up something an actual DT member said in defense of transform? Please tell me how. I think they know the game just a bit considering they're in charge of it.

Because you're saying that if one outlandish characteristic of a joint character is changed, it's making everyone in the cast "homogenized" and "practically the same" when it is actually nothing like that whatsoever.

You're saying changing something that's unique is going to lead to every character being "practically the same."

 

[Sardonyx]

Because you're saying that if one outlandish characteristic of a joint character is changed, it's making everyone in the cast "homogenized" and "practically the same" when it is actually nothing like that whatsoever.

You're saying changing something that's unique is going to lead to every character being "practically the same."

I did NOT say that changing Zelda and sheik would homogenize the entire game. I said that PEOPLE want the game homogenized TOO MUCH. That may have a been a wording thing on my part, but I did not say that.

 

[G13_Flux]

if anything lucario MUs are far more interactive than others because of his constant need to gain more hits to charge aura, and how much his combos force you to execute better and more consistent DI/SDI. non-interactive characters are campy characters. DDD has slowly been moving towards more and more campy because of high end lag on his grounded projectile, clunky ground movement, a now slower dair, and a slightly nerfed/disfunctional inhale. These were all very odd design choices from the DT considering, that they dont want campy characters. But hes a better example than lucario, who has much more of an incentive to interact than most.

 

[Narelex]

if anything lucario MUs are far more interactive than others because of his constant need to gain more hits to charge aura, and how much his combos force you to execute better and more consistent DI/SDI. non-interactive characters are campy characters. DDD has slowly been moving towards more and more campy because of high end lag on his grounded projectile, clunky ground movement, a now slower dair, and a slightly nerfed/disjunctional inhale. These were all very odd choices from the DT considering, that they dont want campy characters. But hes a better example than lucario, who has much more of an incentive to interact than most.

Well it is now since he doesn't gain aura upon hitting your shield anymore.

I'd argue Fox is not very interactive if played optimally since he "CAN" just stay across the stage shooting lasers at you in certain matchup's, until "you" do something and you have to approach Fox or the lasers will rack up % on you. He basically is "force opponent to make mistakes on approach then punish with your amazing kit" the character. Not very fun for his opponents and the counter-play is fairly one-dimensional.

What would people think about changing or completely removing his blaster? Since it seems to be a contributer behind his domination in neutral combined with the rest of his kit (he'd need other tweaks as well) We're not Melee and while I think his identity as a fast, high shield pressure character can stay there are parts of him that need to be tweaked.

(Blaster is not the biggest issue but its an easy point to illustrate)

If they want to play Melee Fox its not like Melee has died, it has a bigger scene then PM and was at EVO for gods sakes.

Lets try to strive for change in ways that make a character more interesting and fun to fight. Ganon's Float is a great change that added depth and tools to the character while retaining his play-style.

 

[Chevy]

lucario is still following di, he doesnt have true combos at all that arent dashattack to uptilt. everything else you can di out of.

Ok this is objectively false. Play with the character for 5 minutes and see what I mean.

if anything lucario MUs are far more interactive than others because of his constant need to gain more hits to charge aura, and how much his combos force you to execute better and more consistent DI/SDI. non-interactive characters are campy characters. DDD has slowly been moving towards more and more campy because of high end lag on his grounded projectile, clunky ground movement, a now slower dair, and a slightly nerfed/disjunctional inhale. These were all very odd choices from the DT considering, that they dont want campy characters. But hes a better example than lucario, who has much more of an incentive to interact than most.

I never said Lucario doesn't have to play the neutral, once he hits you you don't really get to play anymore. Up-smash goes into anything, aerials go into anything, he can follow any DI because his combo moves either have little knockback, he can cancel them before the launching hitbox, or he can follow you and drag you with up-b into a finisher before you're out of hitstun.

More random stuff:
You can jump out of his up-smash on hit for some reason, guaranteeing any aerial.
ASC is at least as stupid as L-cancelling(if you're in the camp that likes to complain about that). If your OHC chain is over you literally just press b and hold L/R so that your move doesn't have endlag and continue to follow-up.

 

[Boiko]

I've never heard anyone say that ever.

 

[steelguttey]

jesus christ man

asc has lag, they even gave it more in 3.6. most of the time it has more lag than the rest of lucario's ****

 

[AceGamer]

Btw, it's jab > tilt > smash > special but like in traditional fighters you can skip some of the steps if you want which is part of what makes ASC a strong tool

 

[Narelex]

I've avoided talking about Lucario before because I admittedly didn't know much about the character(though I always thought he didn't at all belong), but I think I understand enough now to properly convey my thoughts.

So from the perspective of someone who never played TFGs, Lucario's OHC system seems completely arbitrary. I believe it goes jab->tilts->smashes->not sure. But also neutral b charge can be cancelled with anything I think?(not sure on this because I know he has to cancel the charge with R/L) I don't know when aura has to be used during that series at all, or if it's just specials or whatever. Point being, it's super bizarre without the requisite background knowledge. I'm all for unique mechanics being in the game, but this seems more to me like a collection of random ways to ignore endlag.

Btw, it's jab > tilt > smash > special but like in traditional fighters you can skip some of the steps if you want which is part of what makes ASC a strong tool

I'm not one to get mad at other people but not even looking up the base kit of the character you're talking about, Chevy really makes the post come across as salt induced. Even if that's not the case. It's on the PM main site man. (Thanks Ace)

Lucario helps bridge the gap of PM and traditional fighters for quite a few people and I want him to remain like that. Does he need tweaks still? Probably. But they have already taken out/tweaked tons of things with 3.6B and will continue to do so until he sits right.

 

[Chevy]

jesus christ man

asc has lag, they even gave it more in 3.6. most of the time it has more lag than the rest of lucario's ****

The entire animation takes 21 frames, but it has a hitbox too. Yeah it's not that fast, but it's just another arcane thing strapped to him.

I'm not one to get mad at other people but not even looking up the base kit of the character you're talking about, Chevy really makes the post come across as salt induced. Even if that's not the case. It's on the PM main site man. (Thanks Ace)

Lucario helps bridge the gap of PM and traditional fighters for quite a few people and I want him to remain like that. Does he need tweaks still? Probably. But they have already taken out/tweaked tons of things with 3.6B and will continue to do so until he sits right.

It's not salt, I've never lost to a Lucario. He just has the most dumb stuff out of every character in the cast, and I feel like people don't ever talk about him because no one is qualified to do so. I don't think he's a huge imbalance concern right now(though the possibility is there) I just greatly dislike his design.

 

[steelguttey]

you mean i can add a whole 21 FRAMES to my aerials! thats insane! and it has a tiny hitbox behind him too that will never extend a combo on anyone that knows how sdi works? GEE PA THATS GREAT!

 

[Narelex]

The entire animation takes 21 frames, but it has a hitbox too. Yeah it's not that fast, but it's just another arcane thing strapped to him.



It's not salt, I've never lost to a Lucario. He just has the most dumb stuff out of every character in the cast, and I feel like people don't ever talk about him because no one is qualified to do so. I don't think he's a huge imbalance concern right now(though the possibility is there) I just greatly dislike his design.

I'd argue that Fox holds the title. But disliking a characters design is a very fair point and I agree that we don't have enough people good enough at him to really figure out quickly if his design is broken. Lucario players I want you to
"C'mon step it up, You're too slow"

You don't have to lose to one to be "Salty" about it, I get "Salty" about Fox all the time even when I win vs him but I try to be objective when I talk about his problems. Instead of saying "WHY IS THIS LIKE THAT" why not ask if it can be changed and offer alternatives otherwise it comes across as someone just being frustrated and ranting.

 

[foxygrandpa]

No, we want the game homogenized to the point where stupid **** like transform is removed. Your argument is literally the definition of a slippery slope, and I HATE quoting debate terms.

I don't really think transform is as good as your making it out to be. It doesn't really skew any matchups considering zelda and sheik don't really have any ridiculously polarizing matchups to begin with (sheik has one or two, admittedly). At higher levels where an opponent's neutral is more refined and stocks rely more on hard punishes and 1-2 interactions in neutral, both character's struggle (assuming the opponent is playing a strong character) especially since sheik's grab game was scrapped.

You're right in the sense that transform is a dumb mechanic, but I don't understand how it's overpowered and beats counterpicks. Both characters have respective weaknesses and you can only really play one at a time. It forces matchup knowledge, but it's not that good.
That said, I do wish that it was removed. They both have holes in their designs that could be remedied with new attacks. Sheik could be so interesting in terms of gameplay with more than one usable special. However, if for some reason they change transform without first changing chain, I will never play this game again. There's such a stigma against both characters individually, and its getting pretty tiresome.

 

[Narelex]

you mean i can add a whole 21 FRAMES to my aerials! thats insane! and it has a tiny hitbox behind him too that will never extend a combo on anyone that knows how sdi works? GEE PA THATS GREAT!

Dude chill, aggressiveness is just going to add fuel to a fire I don't want to start. He dislikes the design and is clearly frustrated by it but getting mad at him won't change his opinion. Even if you are correct lets try to be civil about this.

 

[Narelex]

Well I accidentally double posted when editing a prior comment. How do I remove this

(rip being inactive on smashboards for years)