Tier List Speculation

[Chevy]

Not convinced. Your opening post on the topic came off as less generally educated on Lucario's mechanics than I was within my first week of playing PM. As such, a lot of what you're saying strikes me as willful ignorance rather than a design problem with the character.

Lucario's kit is quite clearly tuned around the OHC mechanic. He generally doesn't follow up very well without making use of it. Even with the magic series, his combo potential is not as good as you seem to think. Good use of his supers is what really makes his punish game so explosive because it can either extend combos in unusual ways or net him early kills. Everything else is basically a sped-up version of what other characters do. Not all of his stuff is true combos, he still makes use of frame traps and tech chases. His kit is also relatively devoid of DI mixups - it's not like every hit is his own personal variant of Sheik's old throw mixups. Even if you don't fully understand what's going on, you should have a general sense of how to respond once you get over the initial surprise of seeing his OHCs.

Given that knowledge, counterplay becomes pretty clear. The primary goal is to limit his ability to generate and utilize aura. The less he gets off each conversion and the more often he's forced to use it for things other than damage, the more he'll struggle. This is a principle that is both effective and relatively simple to apply.

I honestly don't see the problem here. Yes, it's unusual for a Smash game. No, it's not nearly as opaque to the opposing player as you're trying to make it out to be, and the PMDT has done a good job of cleaning up his design with changes like ASC endlag (still useful, but no longer overshadows the rest of his magic series in so many situations) and changes to aura generation..

I actually played around with Lucario a little bit after the 1st post. By time of that statement I had a better understanding, though I also found more random stuff that doesn't make sense. I believe that he can be tweaked to relative suitability, given the commitment to his design, but I still don't think he really belongs. Would you disagree that the opponent can do less to escape once hit by Lucario?(compared to other combo-oriented characters)

Anyway, I've just about got out everything I wanted to say about the character, and I'll admit bits of it were over-stated. Most of the vocal PM community seems to like "Street Fighter character in smash" so I'm probably in the minority. But I also think it's important to consider whether his design alienates or intrigues more potential players. I don't know any TFG players that have gotten into PM because of him, and that seems like the main crowd he's intended to bring in. I just kind of perceive him as one of the few black marks on the game that I wish was different, maybe it's a personal problem, but I know others who feel the same way. And to someone who doesn't like this game as much as I do, that might be enough to turn them off of it.

 

[Narelex]

I actually played around with Lucario a little bit after the 1st post. By time of that statement I had a better understanding, though I also found more random stuff that doesn't make sense. I believe that he can be tweaked to relative suitability, given the commitment to his design, but I still don't think he really belongs. Would you disagree that the opponent can do less to escape once hit by Lucario?(compared to other combo-oriented characters)

Anyway, I've just about got out everything I wanted to say about the character, and I'll admit bits of it were over-stated. Most of the vocal PM community seems to like "Street Fighter character in smash" so I'm probably in the minority. But I also think it's important to consider whether his design alienates or intrigues more potential players. I don't know any TFG players that have gotten into PM because of him, and that seems like the main crowd he's intended to bring in. I just kind of perceive him as one of the few black marks on the game that I wish was different, maybe it's a personal problem, but I know others who feel the same way. And to someone who doesn't like this game as much as I do, that might be enough to turn them off of it.

Valid points and I thought it was important for us to have a discussion on it. I was watching a stream and a player mentioned how he came from a Street fighter background and how intuitive Lucario is for him. So they might be few in number but they do exist.

Its easy to get heated over something you feel strongly about so I can't fault you for that whatsoever.

We need to fix any and all Design problems ASAP. Discussion about potential problems is extremely valuable to the community as a whole. Even if we all can rant and get carried away at times. It doesn't change the potential usefulness of the discussions as a whole.

 

[jtm94]

Fox is easily contender for the best. Nothing has been changed about him that was meaningful. Changing lasers effectively put a large damper on his only real form of non-interactive play, and that was needed not because Fox was too good, but it was too good. He's easier in PM so you have far less execution flubs or missed dashes. They touched the "icing" on the cake, but just because there's less icing doesn't make the cake bad. He does need a change, this is not melee and you can play him in a better state in a very alive game.

On Melee. Why was Sheik changed more significantly than Fox? The removal of NTSC dthrow was pretty big, but she had a mixup which was arguably better in various areas and even that was removed. There obviously isn't an issue with CGs as various characters like ICs, Ganon, Mario, and more on FFers still can span significant %s with them. There are still mixups into strong KO moves like DK and Wario have, even GnW in some ways. Infinite tech chasing never has been a thing and is not viable. Zard had significant endlag added to his dthrow to the point where it isn't usable unless you are facing characters with the worst tech rolls, but even then it's hard. I'd much rather be tech chased than 50/50d into a powerful KO move. I got a little off track and I still think Sheik is good, but it was a thought I had. I know she had things made better like fsmash and upsmash? It's just weird that she has to play in a different manner now, but Fox's playstyle wasn't hampered in the slightest.

On Lucario: He is extremely weird to face and if you don't know what's going on you can easily be overwhelmed by the amount of foreign things happening at a rate which you can't follow. MUs like these often drive people away. See Sonic, Squirtle, Wario, etc. He still follows most of the rules of smash, but he may be pushing some of those boundaries. I do think characters can have good different things giving them unique playstyles. Difficulty of tech does not balance out something broken though, and I've yet to see if Lucario is broken at that apex of play. That is something meta development will figure out.

I have a comment about SDI. I am strongly in favor of moves having slight SDI modifiers. If they don't, I am in favor of reworks of the hitboxes so they link better, but if they link better isn't that better than weak SDI modifiers in some instances? I just feel like moves should work as they should when they land. Melee Zelda is near unusable because her mulihit moves just don't... function. Moves should allow SDI in a way where interaction exists, but it shouldn't be so easy to use that you can accidentally escape a move and punish those who landed it(Link/Pit/ZSS upsmash). Having moves that don't work is worse than wielding a bad move because at least the bad move has a niche use, the one that doesn't work will never work unless the opponent is asleep.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Umbreon, would sheik still be boring to you if her uthrow were decent? Like because I feel for you saying sheik is boring now, considering I seconded her pretty strongly and now have fairly low inclination to play her
Like say, shaving a few frames endlag so that she can get follow-ups at mid percent instead of only at high percent, maybe adjusting knockback so it's not silly on every character at mid percent, and only some. If it had also similar speed to dthrow, it'd be a DI mix-up as well, but exclusively a forward facing one, rather than her old one which was kind of extreme in that it was a DI mix-up on top of being two just plain good combo throws where she gets to choose where you go even if you DI well.

EDIT: DI mix-up with uthrow in the sense that, if you DI for dthrow, you get sent just in front of and above sheik for a fair/ftilt/etc depending on char

 

[Foo]

I'm starting the trend of retiring the word "Jank" as a way to describe a character right now. Its a buzzword that has absolutely no positive connotations when talking about a characters balance/tools.

Grab a thesaurus everyone you're going have to use some big words now.

Relevant quote, jank still can be used

"This is HIGHLY misleading. Everyone in this thread has different balance goals and biases and the community is fairly sizable. Of course if you followed EVERY nerf suggestion, the game would be an unplayable mess. However, that doesn't mean some characters don't need to be nerfed a bit, and some characters have things that need to be normalized a bit. imo, there's a range between "****ing jank BS" and "boring normalized BS" called "jank bs like momma used to make" which is the ideal balance zone.

On one hand, you have stuff like a sonic down-b that comes out frame 6, is the fastest movement in the entire game and can be turned on shield while doing constant damage at all times that is CLEARLY in the ****ing jank BS range and it was a really good thing that it was nerfed into jank bs like momma used to make. Then you have things like zss dash cancel blaster, that most people thought was fine. In the context of 3.02, it was balanced, but it was still ****ing jank BS, but only BARELY. Had the transcendence been removed and the frame 1 cancel been moved back a little bit, it would have been just like momma used to make, but they went too far and made it one of the most boring moves in the entire game. You just throw out a bunch of really dinky projectiles that don't really do any damage or anything with low lag, but not nearly low enough to do anything you would do with mario fireball or falco laser. You can charge it, but that part is so bad it's never really worth using. Blaster's redeeming quality is that you can spam them like crazy, but holy **** is that a boring thing.

Mewtwo acting out of TP was another thing that was pretty clearly in the ****ing jank bs range, but rather than remove it altogether they found a really clever and effective way to make it fair, deep, and interesting without removing any fun. They also added a little bit of jank in to ganon, with his float, but they were a little too careful with it imo. I think for it to be the most fun, the iasa should be a little sooner.

Basically, here's the point. There's gonna be people complaining about everything. It's the PMDT's job to find out what there is a general consensus about, filter out the random salt, and also note who the better and more intelligent players are complaining about. Then, they have to find a way to fix those characters without making moves that are unfun for either player.


BTW, here's why you want it in the middle.

****ing jank BS: Fun for the user, not fun to play against.

boring normalized bs: very boring for the user, neither boring nor fun to play against

bs just like momma used to make: less fun than ****ing jank bs for the user, but still fun, and really fun to play against.

For instance, I think diddy is in that perfect range of jank right now, because his projectiles are still really BS, but there's also really good counterplay to them. His moves are all REALLY good, but they almost all have some sort of weakness (usually either end lag or multihit)"

PMDT thinks that Sheik's b-throw is OP because it allows her to "infinite tech chase".

That's the stupidest reasoning I've ever heard. If someone can so reliably predict or react to an opponent that they can INFINITE them via techchase, there's something wrong with the opponent. Yet they're fine with MK's dthrow tech chase even though he has more time to react, a better dash, a better dashgrab, more range on grab, and a real dashdance? ? ?

What's up with this irrational hatred of Sheik that causes such inconsistency?

MK's dthrow tech chase didn't even tech chase at a lot of %s, (inlcuding low %s) and it sends them significantly in fromt of them. What made sheik's ******** is that she could tech chase both ways. If you rolled towards ledge and got grabbed against mk, you were free. Do that against sheik and she just bthrows you. That combined with how much reward she got off of the DI mixup and still getting reward if you DI'd correctly was broken as ****.

22 frames is a lot of time to react compared to a lot of stuff in this game, especially since you can just react to being grabbed and not the throw itself.

We talked about this before, and the first several frames of bthrow and dthrow are so similar that you can't tell them apart. By the time you can, there wasn't enough time to react. I don't remember who posted that specifics of it though.

@Umbreon, would sheik still be boring to you if her uthrow were decent? Like because I feel for you saying sheik is boring now, considering I seconded her pretty strongly and now have fairly low inclination to play her
Like say, shaving a few frames endlag so that she can get follow-ups at mid percent instead of only at high percent, maybe adjusting knockback so it's not silly on every character at mid percent, and only some. If it had also similar speed to dthrow, it'd be a DI mix-up as well, but exclusively a forward facing one, rather than her old one which was kind of extreme in that it was a DI mix-up on top of being two just plain good combo throws where she gets to choose where you go even if you DI well.

EDIT: DI mix-up with uthrow in the sense that, if you DI for dthrow, you get sent just in front of and above sheik for a fair/ftilt/etc depending on char

idk, last time we gave sheik a DI mixup on throw, things didn't go so well.... I also think throw DI mixups are stupid anyway.

 

[Boiko]

Down throw back throw reaction time is 14 frames. It is next to impossible to react to especially when sheik wouldn't pummel and would immediately throw you. A DI mix up should have counter play to it, not be a guessing game.

People want to feel like they could have done something about their loss, not that they lost because they guessed incorrectly. You could say "don't get grabbed" but we all know that Sheik gets grabs more easily than a lot of the cast.

 

[Juushichi]

i dunno about all that, tbh.

 

[Boiko]

i dunno about all that, tbh.

I do so it's fine.

Really though, what do you disagree with? It's been confirmed a few times in this thread that you have 16 frames to react to the throw mix up but the first two frames are identical, so you have 14. Sheik doesn't have a particularly hard time getting grabs. It's not free, by any means, but it's not impossible either.

Or do you disagree with the notion that people feel like losing to DI mix up > up smash is non-interactive? I could understand that, because it does vary on a person to person basis. However, in my experiences, I have found that people generally dislike it. When getting grabbed, there isn't a "what can I do about this" option. There's simply guess right or die. Combine that with the fact that even correct DI can cause a tech chase into regrab and it's a never ending cycle. In order to prevent a tool from being too over powering or over centralizing, there needs to be a degree of counter play. Take Zelda's throw mix up for instance. Her forward throw is close to impossible to react to, but her down throw gives you plenty of time. So, you preemptively DI for the forward throw, and adjust for down throw. It's frustrating if you guess incorrectly and die to a kick at 90 percent, but at least you can always do something about it.

When a move has no, or limited counter play, it becomes an over centralizing dynamic of that character. 3.02 PK Fire lost to basically nothing. It never made sense for Ness to use anything else in the neutral because it was that good.

This is the point I'm making: If you give a character who has strong tools to get a grab a 50/50 DI mix up that converts into kills at very low percentages, what's the point in going for anything else, and why is that fun to play against?

I do agree that Sheik is a little dry now. But I don't think that a DI mix up similar to the one that she had in 3.5 is the correct approach for remedying that.

 

[Journal]

Down throw back throw reaction time is 14 frames. It is next to impossible to react to especially when sheik wouldn't pummel and would immediately throw you. A DI mix up should have counter play to it, not be a guessing game.

People want to feel like they could have done something about their loss, not that they lost because they guessed incorrectly. You could say "don't get grabbed" but we all know that Sheik gets grabs more easily than a lot of the cast.

And yet her grabs have no follow ups on most characters if they know to just DI down and away...

 

[Boiko]

And yet her grabs have no follow ups on most characters if they know to just DI down and away...

I'm not saying it's perfect the way it is now.

 

[4tlas]

There is counterplay in avoiding the grab, and then there is still counterplay in the form of guessing which way you will be thrown. Counterplay isn't supposed to always succeed, like it can with Zelda's throws. Counterplay is an option, which can be countered again, and so forth. DIing out of Sheik's mixup is the very definition of counterplay, while DIing out of Zelda's throws is just those throws being ineffective.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

There is counterplay in avoiding the grab, and then there is still counterplay in the form of guessing which way you will be thrown. Counterplay isn't supposed to always succeed, like it can with Zelda's throws. Counterplay is an option, which can be countered again, and so forth. DIing out of Sheik's mixup is the very definition of counterplay, while DIing out of Zelda's throws is just those throws being ineffective.

Taking a guess is definitely not counterplay.

 

[Boiko]

There is counterplay in avoiding the grab, and then there is still counterplay in the form of guessing which way you will be thrown. Counterplay isn't supposed to always succeed, like it can with Zelda's throws. Counterplay is an option, which can be countered again, and so forth. DIing out of Sheik's mixup is the very definition of counterplay, while DIing out of Zelda's throws is just those throws being ineffective.

Guessing isn't counter play, smh.

 

[Zigludo]

Down throw back throw reaction time is 14 frames. It is next to impossible to react to especially when sheik wouldn't pummel and would immediately throw you. A DI mix up should have counter play to it, not be a guessing game.

People want to feel like they could have done something about their loss, not that they lost because they guessed incorrectly. You could say "don't get grabbed" but we all know that Sheik gets grabs more easily than a lot of the cast.

The guessing game is the counterplay. That's how it works with most tech chase situations, edgeguards, etc. It's what happens when Captain Falcon decides to either knee you or reverse knee you and you need to pick the correct survival DI. It's what happens when Falco shines your shield and you need to decide whether or not to buffer a roll. It's what happens when Marth closes to within dash jc grab range and you don't have time to react to his dashdance any more.

Furthermore it's not a straight up 50/50, because it's a game of weighted rewards depending on which throw is chosen. For instance, if Sheik grabs you while facing the edge, dthrow becomes significantly more rewarding than bthrow because it sets up for fair > edgeguard, whereas bthrow sends further on stage. You can always use this information to your advantage.

Every fighting game is built upon unreactable mixups in neutral, and Melee (by extension Project M) is furthermore built upon unreactable mixups during punishes. The old Sheik bthrow/dthrow DI mixup by no means violated any of the core design concepts of this game, at least not in terms of being fundamentally unfair. It might have been overtuned/OP, but that's a different discussion.

You said "People want to feel like they could have done something about their loss, not that they lost because they guessed incorrectly." Well, you could have done something about it - you could have guessed correctly. That describes literally the entire game.

 

[Boiko]

The guessing game is the counterplay. That's how it works with most tech chase situations, edgeguards, etc. It's what happens when Captain Falcon decides to either knee you or reverse knee you and you need to pick the correct survival DI. It's what happens when Falco shines your shield and you need to decide whether or not to buffer a roll. It's what happens when Marth closes to within dash jc grab range and you don't have time to react to his dashdance any more.

Furthermore it's not a straight up 50/50, because it's a game of weighted rewards depending on which throw is chosen. For instance, if Sheik grabs you while facing the edge, dthrow becomes significantly more rewarding than bthrow because it sets up for fair > edgeguard, whereas bthrow sends further on stage. You can always use this information to your advantage.

Every fighting game is built upon unreactable mixups in neutral, and Melee (by extension Project M) is furthermore built upon unreactable mixups during punishes. The old Sheik bthrow/dthrow DI mixup by no means violated any of the core design concepts of this game, at least not in terms of being fundamentally unfair. It might have been overtuned/OP, but that's a different discussion.

You said "People want to feel like they could have done something about their loss, not that they lost because they guessed incorrectly." Well, you could have done something about it - you could have guessed correctly. That literally describes this entire game.

No.

In tech chasing, edge guarding, and everything else that you listed, you have options. More options than hold one way or the other and pray.

 

[4tlas]

Taking a guess is definitely not counterplay.

Guessing isn't counter play, smh.

Would you care to elaborate?

You are always taking a guess as to what your opponent will do. If there is always one correct answer, then that should always be the option chosen. Choosing the foregone conclusion is not counterplay, its the countered option just outright sucking in the first place. Counterplay is an option you can take that might reduce the effectiveness of the original option. The counterplay needs to have a reason not to do it and to try a different option as counterplay instead. Often that reason is because one of the counterplay options wouldn't work, but sometimes its because the option can get countered by something else. So you pick one, and make a play. If it works you feel good because you picked the right option, and if it doesn't your opponent got the full effectiveness of their choice on you.

No.

In tech chasing, edge guarding, and everything else that you listed, you have options. More options than hold one way or the other and pray.

2 options is enough for 1 to be right and 1 to be wrong, making this counterplay. So there are more degrees of counterplay and more levels of effectiveness in your scenario, but it is still the same thing. You pick an option that may or may not counter your opponent's, reducing the effectiveness of their original play.

 

[Zigludo]

No.

In tech chasing, edge guarding, and everything else that you listed, you have options. More options than hold one way or the other and pray.

Actually, in the Captain Falcon knee/reverse knee mixup example that I listed, you have exactly two options: hold in one direction (and pray) or hold in the other direction (and pray).

As long as the number of meaningfully different options in a given situation is greater than 1, there is, in fact, counterplay involved.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Actually, in the Captain Falcon knee/reverse knee mixup example that I listed, you have exactly two options: hold in one direction (and pray) or hold in the other direction (and pray).

As long as the number of meaningfully different options in a given situation is greater than 1, there is, in fact, counterplay involved.

You're putting yourself in that ambiguous position in the first place because of poor DI on the uthrow. It's not "Falcon did uthrow and now I'm in a 50/50 situation", you used your DI options poorly out of uthrow to put you in that situation. Unlike Sheik where it's "I got grabbed, now I'm in a 50/50 situation"

 

[Zigludo]

There are dozens of setups for the knee/reverse knee mixup, not just bad DI on uthrow. Furthermore there are several characters for which there are % ranges where perfect DI on uthrow will not save you from the knee DI mixup. These scenarios are fundamentally the same, despite the fact that you seem to think that getting a grab as Sheik shouldn't count as winning neutral or something

 

[4tlas]

You're putting yourself in that ambiguous position in the first place because of poor DI on the uthrow. It's not "Falcon did uthrow and now I'm in a 50/50 situation", you used your DI options poorly out of uthrow to put you in that situation. Unlike Sheik where it's "I got grabbed, now I'm in a 50/50 situation"

You put yourself in that ambiguous position in the first place because you let yourself get grabbed, which either came directly from neutral during which you had options, or through a combo which extends from losing neutral.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

So in Smash, my opinion of what counterplay is "I see someone is using some form of strategy against me. In order to counteract what strategy their doing, I'm going to do this". When getting grabbed by Sheik, you don't know what "strategy" they're going to do so you can't form a strategy to counteract it. That's why I think 50/50 mixups are poor design, because there isn't any true counterplay to it.

If you don't view counterplay the same way I do, that means our foundations for our argument are different to begin with and we'll never agree with each other so we might as well drop the topic.

 

[Boiko]

inb4 you say guessing correctly is the counter.

 

[Zigludo]

Our foundations for our argument are different to begin with and we'll never agree with each other so we might as well drop the topic.

I agree with you on that one. But I maintain that the punish game of Melee is very much based on similar 50/50s and 1-in-3's (which is the game PM is based on, from a design perspective). Furthermore I like them and think they're cool, lol.

With regards to Boiko's earlier post, if you think stuff like Zelda dthrow/fthrow is a "mixup" then you don't understand the word. It's 100% reactable, and against a competent opponent, you might as well just assume they will get the best possible DI every time.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

I agree with you on that one. But I maintain that the punish game of Melee is very much based on similar 50/50s and 1-in-3's (which is the game PM is based on, from a design perspective). Furthermore I like them and think they're cool, lol.

With regards to Boiko's earlier post, if you think stuff like Zelda dthrow/fthrow is a "mixup" then you don't understand the word. It's 100% reactable, and against a competent opponent, you might as well just assume they will get the best possible DI every time.

I never said Zelda dthrow/fthrow is a mixup? But okay I guess.

Edit: Nevermind I read what I replied to earlier. I didn't even realize 4tlas mentioned Zelda when talking about throw mixups, I was just focusing on Sheik this whole conversation. I agree that you can react to Zeldas throws.

 

[Boiko]

I agree with you on that one. But I maintain that the punish game of Melee is very much based on similar 50/50s and 1-in-3's (which is the game PM is based on, from a design perspective). Furthermore I like them and think they're cool, lol.

With regards to Boiko's earlier post, if you think stuff like Zelda dthrow/fthrow is a "mixup" then you don't understand the word. It's 100% reactable, and against a competent opponent, you might as well just assume they will get the best possible DI every time.

Try using it at the ledge.

Speaking of Zelda:

At 100%, against Mario, Zelda's bair KB is 222 and Bowser's fsmash is 245. Zelda's bair comes out frame five, she can throw two in a single short hop and it reaches farther than everything that isn't a sword. And it's only mildly weaker than Bowser's forward smash.

So, uh, Bowser kind of sucks, LOL.

 

[didds]

Wait so we re arguing about dk right?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So I've been away from smashboards for a while. Sorry to be that guy, but what did I miss, and what's the current topic of discussion?

 

[Zigludo]

Try using it at the ledge.

Speaking of Zelda:

At 100%, against Mario, Zelda's bair KB is 222 and Bowser's fsmash is 245. Zelda's bair comes out frame five, she can throw two in a single short hop and it reaches farther than everything that isn't a sword. And it's only mildly weaker than Bowser's forward smash.

So, uh, Bowser kind of sucks, LOL.

Zelda bair/fair also has a lower/better KO angle lol

yay bowser

 

[didds]

So I've been away from smashboards for a while. Sorry to be that guy, but what did I miss, and what's the current topic of discussion?

Right now we're discussing whether or not an aspect of sheik that is no longer existent was a good mechanic. And dk, dk doesn't offer counter play. That's what I've gathered

 

[Foo]

Actually, in the Captain Falcon knee/reverse knee mixup example that I listed, you have exactly two options: hold in one direction (and pray) or hold in the other direction (and pray).

As long as the number of meaningfully different options in a given situation is greater than 1, there is, in fact, counterplay involved.

First off, it's not really hard to tell which way you are being sent during the massive hitlag for knee unless they do it PERFECTLY which is rare. Secondly, getting put in that situation happens a fraction of a % as often as sheik grabbing someone does, and thirdly, guessing wrong on the DI for knee doesn't lead to being put in that exact same situation again, and finally, you can just DI knee up and be fine. There is a small window where up and in saves you but up won't. Not sure why we are arguing about this so intensely anyway, since pmdt already nerfed it, but...

For everyone jumping in this argument, we are talking about 3.5 sheik bthrow that was nerfed in 3.6 (thank god).


Complex mixups are great. When falco shines my sheild, he has several options and I also have several different options all of which have varying quality. Since he has to preform them very quickly, he is naturally going to have some sort of pattern to his options, almost always leaning towards the highest quality ones so I can pick up on that and choose my actions accordingly. THIS has depth. Shiek grabbed me so lets flip a coin to see if I died is not depth.

 

[Zigludo]

First off, it's not really hard to tell which way you are being sent during the massive hitlag for knee unless they do it PERFECTLY which is rare.

Knee has 13 frames of hitlag. if you can react to that (normal human beings cannot) then you can react to sheik dthrow/bthrow mixup

 

[didds]

Di mixup are fine, just not for a character like sheik, maybe a bowser would be better suited having that kind of tool

 

[4tlas]

So in Smash, my opinion of what counterplay is "I see someone is using some form of strategy against me. In order to counteract what strategy their doing, I'm going to do this". When getting grabbed by Sheik, you don't know what "strategy" they're going to do so you can't form a strategy to counteract it. That's why I think 50/50 mixups are poor design, because there isn't any true counterplay to it.

If you don't view counterplay the same way I do, that means our foundations for our argument are different to begin with and we'll never agree with each other so we might as well drop the topic.

That is also counterplay. But there is a way to counter Sheik's plan at each step of it. Before she gets the grab, you have counterplay as you think of it, where you are in neutral and have all your options available to recognize and circumvent Sheik's gameplan. Then you pick a wrong option and get grabbed. If you are center stage, you are mostly just guessing which way she'll throw you, but you do have patterns and conditioning from previous grabs to consider. Its up to you to decide whether you should act to counter those patterns, or whether you should counter the mixup. If you are near any part of the stage that can end the chaingrab, you can also consider that in your assessment. You are guessing just like you are guessing in neutral. I don't see any difference. But if you want to drop the topic, I understand.

 

[1FD]

Stop talkin bout mah bae PM like it's project must find the swag shiz and eliminate it

Fox is swag
Sheik is swag
Lucario is swag

Game needs more swag
zss needs some of her swag back
people gotta play with more swag
puff d3 dk all need more swag
swag it out

Project Swag plz

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Right now we're discussing whether or not an aspect of sheik that is no longer existent was a good mechanic. And dk, dk doesn't offer counter play. That's what I've gathered

I'm guessing the 50/50 between her dthrow and bthrow, if so then imo no, she doesn't need it. I know all too well how good 50/50 grab mixups that can convert to kill are, though my character's is better. Sheik is still an incredible character without that, but everyone has hella tunnel vision when it comes to their character so sheik is bad lol.

Dk doesn't offer counter play? Lol what? What's the basis for that?

 

[didds]

I'm guessing the 50/50 between her dthrow and bthrow, if so then imo no, she doesn't need it. I know all too well how good 50/50 grab mixups that can convert to kill are, though my character's is better. Sheik is still an incredible character without that, but everyone has hella tunnel vision when it comes to their character so sheik is bad lol.

Dk doesn't offer counter play? Lol what? What's the basis for that?

Just trollish commentary about the Di mix ups

 

[1FD]

Fox is swag
he's like a ball of kill moves on fast little target

Tunnel vision THAT

If you touch that stuff and break his swag then you're doing it wrong
pmdt know what's up that's why fox is still swag
character SHOULD BE BASED AROUND SICK SHINE STUFF AND KILL MOVES

if his lasers were bad and his recovery a little less forgiving so he could retain all of THAT^^^^^
Then he'd be sweet

OH LOOK WHAT THE PATCHES DID
exactly that

some more lag on landing with laser or on whiffed usmashes or small hitboxes on a couple aerials or something would be as far as I'd even want him to be patched

because swag is a must

You take away Lucario swag or Sheik swag or anything and I'll be equally as pi'zss'd

 

[mimgrim]

When I think of "swag", Shine is one of the furthest things away from it. There is nothing "swag" about Shine, imo.

 

[Narelex]

Sheik likely needs some new tools to play with since she does feel really basic and dry atm.

The removal of the DI-mixup was a good one IMO since she already had such strong tools she didn't really need that on top of it.

If we changed chain to another move we could fill the "fun" gap in her kit while also removing what's basically a move that you almost never want to throw out. Give her something thematically appropriate while being useful like Ganon's float is.

 

[Draco_The]

Mr. Wavedash' down taunt is swag.

Shine is BS.