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Tier List Speculation

D

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@Umbreon, would sheik still be boring to you if her uthrow were decent? Like because I feel for you saying sheik is boring now, considering I seconded her pretty strongly and now have fairly low inclination to play her
Like say, shaving a few frames endlag so that she can get follow-ups at mid percent instead of only at high percent, maybe adjusting knockback so it's not silly on every character at mid percent, and only some. If it had also similar speed to dthrow, it'd be a DI mix-up as well, but exclusively a forward facing one, rather than her old one which was kind of extreme in that it was a DI mix-up on top of being two just plain good combo throws where she gets to choose where you go even if you DI well.

EDIT: DI mix-up with uthrow in the sense that, if you DI for dthrow, you get sent just in front of and above sheik for a fair/ftilt/etc depending on char
in 2.0 to 2.1 i believe sheik went from melee ntsc to melee pal after i firmly convinced the east coast dev team members that ntsc sheik was bull**** and beat 75% of the cast like 100-0. i then suggested that she get a useful upthrow instead, and was basically just told "no" but she kept the pal throws. so i quit project m for something like 15-18 months. then at apex 2013 she had the throw mixup that we had through 3.5 and i loved it and started playing again. then when 3.6 was still in the works i playtested pal throws again, and i was like no dont do this i already tested it and it was horrible and you'll make all the sheik players quit the game or switch characters. and then they did it anyway and all the sheik players quit the game or switched characters. and then i recommended a hseful upthrow again, and was basically told "no" a second time. in trying to remove the "problematic" tech chasing (which is still strictly inferior to having a real reliable punish) its ironically the only tool she has left.

my current idea is to use 3.5 throws with some amount of more growth (needs testing) and to raise the release point on backthrow even more. this eliminates infinite tech chasing since you always have the option to DI up regardless of which throw she uses and then DI the followup away to reset to neutral. it also helps against the fastfaller MU where sheik has no real conversions under 50% and actually none against good DI, and therefore rounds out her MU spread. in the larger scope of the game, i would like to stop nerfing conversion tools on slow characters while leaving faster ones alone, it makes the game incredibly MU heavy and alienates the playerbase.
 

Mr.Pickle

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Yeah the mixups on dk's throws are pretty good, and he can get the grab when he wants. Like dk isn't bad, he has a lot of good qualities, but he just gets so dumpstered on by meteors/spikes and projectiles that people think he's bad, that and the diversity in stages probably doesn't help him. The way cc works in this game also really helps him out. I don't know how or why, but something is up with cc in this game, and dk benefits a lot from it.
 

Trollinguy

Smash Cadet
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14 frames is plenty to react to with practice, thus it isnt a true mixup. Therefore her newback throw is better because it has more utility at high level play where people know the matchup and wont screw it up.

Sure it was nice to poop on scrubs with, but thats about it. It's really a buff in disguise.
 

Jacob29

Smash Ace
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Knee has 13 frames of hitlag. if you can react to that (normal human beings cannot) then you can react to sheik dthrow/bthrow mixup

Errrr no????

That's completely different.

As Sheik is grabbing you there is no indication which way the 50/50 is going to go...

But if Falcon stomps you its obvious a knee is probably going to follow up.

I'm di'ing for a knee hit before he even does the move.

You can't do that successfully for sheiks old throws.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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Errrr no????

That's completely different.

As Sheik is grabbing you there is no indication which way the 50/50 is going to go...

But if Falcon stomps you its obvious a knee is probably going to follow up.

I'm di'ing for a knee hit before he even does the move.

You can't do that successfully for sheiks old throws.
What he was suggesting is that you won't know until the very last frame whether he has passed your center and is thus reverse-kneeing or not. So your DI is at best a guess. Of course, much like with Sheik's throws, if you know you're closer to dying off one side than the other you should probably DI for that one.
 

Trollinguy

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I believe this conversation has already happened on the sheik/zelda boards. You di one throw and look for the other. I believe the down throw was really easy to recognize as sheik stuck her leg way up. If i find it ill edit this and put the link in.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i dont see why the character cant just have a reliable conversion off of grab?
 

1FD

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poor jiggsfalcoluigizsspeach and not having a reliable throw.
Grabs must be useless

seriously vague sarcasm and not very good at that
but hopefully the point was had

by that I mean her throws are fine

sure they could probs be better suited and tweaked or whatever, but the conversionability of them is fine
 
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Trollinguy

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She does in alot of situations, besides fast fallers, which is problematic as you pointed out. This would be okay for someone like dk, but this is not okay vs spacies. You should have a devasting punish for winning neutral against a spacie.
 

Boiko

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I believe this conversation has already happened on the sheik/zelda boards. You di one throw and look for the other. I believe the down throw was really easy to recognize as sheik stuck her leg way up. If i find it ill edit this and put the link in.
You have 16 frames to react, but the first two are identical, so you essentially have 14. If Sheik grabs you and immediately throws you, no visual cue that you're not ready to look out for is going to help.
 

jtm94

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No, it's not.
Please everyone back up your claims with evidence and stop spreading misinformation.

"The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus.Dec 1, 2012"

14 frames is 233.33ms, or .2333 of a second. This means on average most people cannot react to it, the majority, but a fraction just smaller than half can still react to it. You essentially said no human can react to it and that is purely false, you only need slightly faster reaction than average. In a fighting game the throw is also contextual as well as possibly having other cues such as audio/rumble that can potentially be used to speed up the reaction.

A lot of things in smash are a guessing game. For example, Sheik does Autocancel fair on shield. She is + enough to grab, but only if done perfectly within 2 frame window, do they have an oos option faster than grab? Maybe I should jab, or dtilt to try and stop the shield grab, or will they spot dodge/roll and I should wait to bait that? All of these things are frame 7 or faster and cannot be reacted to. You can't jab the grab on reaction because that is slightly faster than twice the average reaction time. Guessing is all over in smash, but it all has context. Where did they throw last time? Did they catch you on bad DI in that instance? Where were you at on the stage? Are you a faster faller and do they want to use the higher release back throw?
 

Boiko

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That assumes that you're in the position to react to the throw, which you won't always be.
 
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Narelex

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Please everyone back up your claims with evidence and stop spreading misinformation.

"The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus.Dec 1, 2012"

14 frames is 233.33ms, or .2333 of a second. This means on average most people cannot react to it, the majority, but a fraction just smaller than half can still react to it. You essentially said no human can react to it and that is purely false, you only need slightly faster reaction than average. In a fighting game the throw is also contextual as well as possibly having other cues such as audio/rumble that can potentially be used to speed up the reaction.

A lot of things in smash are a guessing game. For example, Sheik does Autocancel fair on shield. She is + enough to grab, but only if done perfectly within 2 frame window, do they have an oos option faster than grab? Maybe I should jab, or dtilt to try and stop the shield grab, or will they spot dodge/roll and I should wait to bait that? All of these things are frame 7 or faster and cannot be reacted to. You can't jab the grab on reaction because that is slightly faster than twice the average reaction time. Guessing is all over in smash, but it all has context. Where did they throw last time? Did they catch you on bad DI in that instance? Where were you at on the stage? Are you a faster faller and do they want to use the higher release back throw?
Glad someone decided to pull out the science behind it. I'd argue that the highest level players probably also have the best reaction time. But that's not an excuse to justify the bthrow since the masses could basically never do it. While competitively focused PM is still trying to appeal to as large a demographic as possible.
 

Trollinguy

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Well you do have 2 frames extra for realizing you're grabbed. Plus your looking at the screen so you should have a good idea of when you might be grabbed.
 
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AuraMaudeGone

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FFAC Fair -> Grab works because it's a legitimate frame trap. If you try to challenge it with most characters you'll be grabbed regardless because:
A) You don't have a move fast enough
B) Even if you did, lolIhavegrabarmor
C) If you dodged, I still have time to grab you during your vulnerable frames.

It's kinda hard to reasonably "buff" Sheik because she's a walking punish machine that can react to most approaches w/o too many issues. That's already a major trait people are annoyed about. If I wanted to give Sheik something interesting, it would be a few safe approaches on the ground that doesn't succumb to CC, but that's asking for a lot already.

Also: My Reddit post about Fox
 
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Ripple

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Well you do have 2 frames extra for realizing you're grabbed. Plus your looking at the screen so you should have a good idea of when you might be grabbed.
You aren't reacting to being grabbed. You're trying to react to being thrown.
 
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Trollinguy

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Sorry, should have been more specific but I dont know how to quote using my phone.

I was refering to get grabbed and thrown instantly, about being ready to react to being thrown.
 

Sardonyx

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Try using it at the ledge. ;)

Speaking of Zelda:

At 100%, against Mario, Zelda's bair KB is 222 and Bowser's fsmash is 245. Zelda's bair comes out frame five, she can throw two in a single short hop and it reaches farther than everything that isn't a sword. And it's only mildly weaker than Bowser's forward smash.

So, uh, Bowser kind of sucks, LOL.
Shhh shhh we don't need anymore Zelda nerfs >.> don't tell them these things
 

Shokio

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Bottom line is the grabs were stupid fast and you wouldn't even realize which throw was performed until after you've already been fair'd.

Sheik having a DI mixup was not the problem IMO, it was just the stupid speed of her throws and the crazy low KB of Bthrow. The Bthrow animation slowed down a bit + some more KB growth/release point adjustment would be fine.
 

4tlas

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Please everyone back up your claims with evidence and stop spreading misinformation.

"The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus.Dec 1, 2012"

14 frames is 233.33ms, or .2333 of a second. This means on average most people cannot react to it, the majority, but a fraction just smaller than half can still react to it. You essentially said no human can react to it and that is purely false, you only need slightly faster reaction than average. In a fighting game the throw is also contextual as well as possibly having other cues such as audio/rumble that can potentially be used to speed up the reaction.

A lot of things in smash are a guessing game. For example, Sheik does Autocancel fair on shield. She is + enough to grab, but only if done perfectly within 2 frame window, do they have an oos option faster than grab? Maybe I should jab, or dtilt to try and stop the shield grab, or will they spot dodge/roll and I should wait to bait that? All of these things are frame 7 or faster and cannot be reacted to. You can't jab the grab on reaction because that is slightly faster than twice the average reaction time. Guessing is all over in smash, but it all has context. Where did they throw last time? Did they catch you on bad DI in that instance? Where were you at on the stage? Are you a faster faller and do they want to use the higher release back throw?

I believe that's reacting to a stimulus, not recognizing a stimulus, making a decision, and then reacting. I suppose someone with good reaction time could always DI one way and train themselves to recognize the animation for the other throw so well that they can swap in time, but I doubt it.

So I'm not sure your data is correct either.
 

Idostuff

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What Sheik needs to be the best in the game is actually way less than anyone else. If you gave her a tiny, 1% dmg hitbox on the re apear animation of vanish, her recovery would be 2x as good. Also if her tipper upsmash hitbox extended just a little bit higher so she could hit people's feet who are standing on a battlefield platform (seriosuly, I feel like platform height in this game was designed specifically to be JUST out of reach of upsmash), then she would be perfect.
 

1FD

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Bottom line is the grabs were stupid fast and you wouldn't even realize which throw was performed until after you've already been fair'd.

Sheik having a DI mixup was not the problem IMO, it was just the stupid speed of her throws and the crazy low KB of Bthrow. The Bthrow animation slowed down a bit + some more KB growth/release point adjustment would be fine.
so this

lowered speed of dthrow and bthrow, and slight release point change of bthrow would have been enough
but nope lets crush all the new stuff because it's too fresh

it's like how removing zss's blaster dash cancelling would have been enough
but nope gotta change her grabs and throws because dash cancelled blaster was gone
FOR SOME REASON
 
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MLGF

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...I don't think any character NEEDS to be the best.
When PM has people arguing who is the best character, that'll be perfect.
 

InfinityCollision

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When I think of "swag", Shine is one of the furthest things away from it. There is nothing "swag" about Shine, imo.
Waveshines are pretty slick imo. They just look really smooth.

I don't have that much of a problem with shine at this point. I just want Fox tweaked so that he gets less out of noninteractive strategies. Do that, keep the fun stuff, distill Fox down to the cool things.

That alone is half the reason Wolf gets significantly less complaints that Fox even if he's also crazy good.
 
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Scuba Steve

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We should just make it so when you pick Sheik it switches you to Falcon transform style when the match starts. Problem solved

Edit: The hive mind is showing
 
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Foo

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Knee has 13 frames of hitlag. if you can react to that (normal human beings cannot) then you can react to sheik dthrow/bthrow mixup
That's assuming you have your eyes closed until the frame knee hit you. If sheik grabbed you, paused for a full second, and then threw you, it'd be easier to react to. You can usually tell which side knee is going to hit you based on their positioning/drifting etc. etc. and then on to of it, you have 13 frames of hitlag to react. If they are dead center stage, within a 10% range, and position PERFECTLY, then sure, knee MAY be as hard to react to as sheik's 3.5 throws. You see how this is different right? Even if you are right about the reaction time, you still ignored the rest of my argument as if I hadn't even made it.


What Sheik needs to be the best in the game is actually way less than anyone else. If you gave her a tiny, 1% dmg hitbox on the re apear animation of vanish, her recovery would be 2x as good. Also if her tipper upsmash hitbox extended just a little bit higher so she could hit people's feet who are standing on a battlefield platform (seriosuly, I feel like platform height in this game was designed specifically to be JUST out of reach of upsmash), then she would be perfect.
Why does sheik, of all characters, need major buffs? Pls no
 

4tlas

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That's assuming you have your eyes closed until the frame knee hit you. If sheik grabbed you, paused for a full second, and then threw you, it'd be easier to react to. You can usually tell which side knee is going to hit you based on their positioning/drifting etc. etc. and then on to of it, you have 13 frames of hitlag to react. If they are dead center stage, within a 10% range, and position PERFECTLY, then sure, knee MAY be as hard to react to as sheik's 3.5 throws. You see how this is different right?
What he was suggesting is that you won't know until the very last frame whether he has passed your center and is thus reverse-kneeing or not. So your DI is at best a guess. Of course, much like with Sheik's throws, if you know you're closer to dying off one side than the other you should probably DI for that one.
Sorry about quoting myself, but I responded to this point above, just without quoting you so you might not have seen it.
 
D

Deleted member

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You aren't reacting to being grabbed. You're trying to react to being thrown.
what? people react and DI correctly for shine all the time. peach's 11 frame kill throw is fine but sheiks isnt at 14?
 
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Foo

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Sorry about quoting myself, but I responded to this point above, just without quoting you so you might not have seen it.
That would only be assuming it's done perfectly, which is really hard. Falcon takes forever to change his air speed. If it were jiggs, it would be like that, but not with falcon. However, even if it isn't reactable, it still isn't anywhere near comparable to sheik's 3.5 throws. What you guys are arguing about is my least important point.

what? people react and DI correctly for shine all the time. peach's 11 frame kill throw is fine but sheiks isnt at 14?
NO NO NO this is SO wrong. You can NEVER react to shine it is completely impossible even if humans had instant reaction it'd stll be impossible. Also, you don't react to peach fthrow, you react to her grab animation which from my source would be about 20-21 frames for standing grab. If she dthrows, you have half a second to adjust DI.
 

4tlas

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That would only be assuming it's done perfectly, which is really hard. Falcon takes forever to change his air speed. If it were jiggs, it would be like that, but not with falcon. However, even if it isn't reactable, it still isn't anywhere near comparable to sheik's 3.5 throws. What you guys are arguing about is my least important point.
I was just responding to one of your points. I didn't feel like the others were something for me to comment on.
 

Boiko

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what? people react and DI correctly for shine all the time. peach's 11 frame kill throw is fine but sheiks isnt at 14?
You don't need to think when you get grabbed by Peach at 130%, which is generally when her throw kills. You just hold up and in. It's intuitive and entirely different than having to think about it with 3 frames more to react and subsequently dying much earlier.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
what? people react and DI correctly for shine all the time. peach's 11 frame kill throw is fine but sheiks isnt at 14?
Peach's 11 frame kill throw is also hella obvious because shes slow as ****, most people prepare for f throw DI because they know they're about to be grabbed. Faster characters can mix up and disguise when they're going to grab.

We have already had this conversation on skype about you know what
 

Ripple

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what? people react and DI correctly for shine all the time. peach's 11 frame kill throw is fine but sheiks isnt at 14?
I was simply correcting him about what was being reacted to. I wasn't stating any opinion on whether the throw was good or balanced or what have you
 

1FD

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Sometimes i wish there was like a filter for moods somehow
I love umbreon posts half the time because they're useful and clear
the other half it's like it's coming from a ball of cocky who doesn't know what's up at all but needs to spew
and the other half the time it's contradictory or like it's from someone who's confused about what they think because they think they know
plz come back smart umb I want you baby
which is probs due to the result of being smart but cocky from the first 2 halves

Soon we'll be talking about how it's harder to avoid Peach fairs from above than it is to avoid getting Bitten by Wario from above

Screw command grabs and 50/50 mix ups those are easy you just walk out of the way
Peach fair has more range so it takes 14 frames to walk away instead of 11 because it's bigger duh

Shine is swag
 
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DahremRuhar

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I know how we can solve this problem with some characters being better than others, and people whining about it because they realize that they will never be relevant.

Make every character Melee Kirby.

Of course, then people will claim that some alt-colors are OP because of their subconscious emotional impact.

"When he plays Red Kirby I lose my focus because it makes me angry."
"Yellow is a hard color to look at, so I can't track what my opponent is doing with my eyes. The Dev Team needs to nerf Yellow or PM will die."

Seriously, I thought this was "tier-list discussion" not "find excuses for why I'm bad instead of actually getting better discussion."

PM has some junk, but so does every Smash game. If you learn to work around these things instead of screaming "PMDT pls nerf " at every opportunity, you will enjoy this game a lot more.

Edit to be on-topic: http://shoryuken.com/2015/05/21/hum...hting-games-or-why-blocking-isnt-always-easy/

Average human reaction is 16 frames. If you have below average reaction time idk if you should bother with competitive video gaming.
 
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1FD

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the feels too strong tier
:mewtwopm::roypm::falco::fox::diddy::ike::lucario::lucas::luigi2::mario2::yoshi2::wolf::toonlink::samus2::sheik::pikachu2:
the feels strong tier
:falcon::popo::marth::wario::squirtle::sonic::snake::rob::charizard::dk2::pit::peach::olimar::ganondorf::ness2::gw::metaknight::zerosuitsamus::kirby2::ivysaur::link2:
the feels not so strong tier
:jigglypuff::bowser2::zelda::dedede:
the I really don't know just guessing tier
:bowser2::diddy::ganondorf::kirby2::link2::pit::peach::olimar::metaknight::zelda:


the swagless tier
:dk2::bowser2::jigglypuff:

the gimme more swag tier
:olimar::zerosuitsamus::zelda:

the too much auto-swag it's not that swag anymore tier
:falcon::roypm::snake::dk2:

the fix my recovery tier
:ivysaur::link2::toonlink::lucas::samus2::zerosuitsamus:

the fix my jank whatever that means tier
:bowser2::fox::jigglypuff::luigi2::olimar::gw::lucario::sheilda:

the stupid throws too good or too bad tier
:kirby2::snake::gw::falcon::ganondorf::popo::ness2::zerosuitsamus:
 
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