Tier List Speculation

[Zigludo]

LOL this entire thread is literally just Bowser Redesign Discussion now.

To answer Boiko's original question... I think it's safe to say that 90% of Bowser mains are in agreement as to the fact that he's completely terrible now. And the objective data is there to back that claim up, as has been expounded upon a couple dozen times in the last two pages. And I think 95% liked the old Bowser better to boot, lol

 

[FreeGamer]

I dabble in Bowser, and the only thing that really rustles my jimmies is the F-Air nerf. Like, really? The heaviest character in the game doesn't deserve to have a reliable kill move fitting for his weight class?

 

[Sethlon]

And a random bowser beat Sethlon a month or so ago... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

As funny as this may seem to you guys, there are few things more frustrating/aggravating to hear as a DT member who actually plays in the scene. American Bowser beat me because he outplayed me in that set, and implying that I think otherwise downplays his victory and calls my integrity into question for no reason at all. There were a slew of "yoo, we nerfin bowser noww?" in person after I lost to him, smh

And for what its worth, I didn't participate in any of the discussions for either D3 or Bowser (other than to mention problems with some of D3's kit that Ripple has brought up to me =P)

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Seriously guys, it may seem pretty funny to make jokes about the DT and corresponding nerfs, but after hearing one too many comments from Strong Bad/Sethlon/Whoever else, its extremely disrespectful and rude.

 

[Zoa]

Gotta agree with TheGravyTrain. We aren't in the designers' seats, and the PMDT gets their fair share of crap and criticisms regularly, so just bear with them in the meanwhile. Voicing disapproval of something is one thing, but there are certain boundaries before it just gets excessive.

 

[Nausicaa]

All of this talk is nice

BUT

Disclaimer (I think that's what this is)


The PMDT have done a GREAT job with each of these post-3.02 patches.
3.5 was EXCELLENTLY torn apart and put together.
Sending wide-spread worsening across an entire game is probably a BILLION times harder than buffing every to a happy level ever could be, yet it was absolutely essential, and essential AFTER everything was already at the point where it was over-tuned.
This initial over-tuning was ALSO a very essential part of the development of this game, as that had to be explored (and thoroughly) to understand the dynamics and effects that has in many many facets of a Smash game.

3.5 came through and made this new ground-work built on the old. On an already stabilizing game of 'strong' characters competing with unique tools and quirks that simply fleshed out to be jank is some key areas. Which was a given to have happen when you're trying to re-invent what could be the most diverse Smash game that may ever be made.

3.6 as an extension to this CANNOT be an entire remold and tuning toward the better, or it would end up going through the same cycle again.
I'm sure everyone from Odds to PMDT to random people understand the ramifications of this. It means that degenerate stuff that IS NOT INTENTIONALLY meant to be the quirks and tools that character carry over from 3.02, have to be demolished STILL. Bowser, fit that bill very much. Others did as well.

Naturally, given this game has A LOT OF FREAKING CONTENT, it would be REALLY REALLY REALLY smart, normal, expected, understandable, and make a LOT of sense, for characters and content MORE FREQUENTLY played at the level of play that 'counts' regarding balance, BY THE PEOPLE DEVELOPING THE GAME VERY INTIMATELY, to be finer-tuned characters a LOT sooner and a LOT more frequently so.
Especially RIGHT NOW, when the game is still being torn apart WHILE being put back together.
In other words...
Characters that people involved more heavily WITH the development of the game (PMDT and others), SHOULD be more finely touched and tuned than others.

The Melee-core made an amazing 'tipping point' and beacon for tuning the game. For whatever reasons from balance to styles of play to normalization to extremes.
The characters played by the PMDT-core will make an amazing 'tipping point' to further this deeper and developing strong-hold of characters that are very fitting to the end-game that the entire Smash community wants in the form of PM4.0

The other characters will come to this 'fine-tuning' swiftly, but following the batch that's being 'fine-tuned' by those who are intimate with both the characters AND the development of the game.
All of this following the juiciness of what Melee provided, and what was provided by the other currently very will-fitting characters that happen to WORK right now.

So, good **** 3.6 Beta DTeam, good ****

tl;dr

Good **** DT, good ****

 

[The_NZA]

@ The_NZA - I actually agree with what you posted, from what I skimmed over concerning wario, g&w, and snake....but I respectfully disagree with your stance on link. I do agree that they went in the right direction with his design, but it's far from perfect and I think you're severely overestimating him.

I don't think he's perfect. I just like that they retained his strengths and built in weaknesses. They didn't eviscerate the tools that made him good. The stuff Link players enjoyed doing, like AGT techs and smart waveland into zair stuff, or dthrow optimizations and jab jab frametrap mixups were unimpacted because the PMDT realized people playing to the strenghts of the character. In the recent patch, they realized he was a little weaker than they liked in 3.5 so he was given slight buffs to make him more competitive. I like this balanced approach to design. They would rather have to play around a weakness and retain their strengths than lose some of what makes them strong. In the case of Lucario, I wouldn't have touched ASC nearly as bad, or his command throw comboability, or his dash animation. I would have made his recovery stupidly easy to punish, removed downb invincibility into attacks and left it at that.

 

[Nausicaa]

3.6 Bowser funnest Bowser

 

[Deleted member]

lunchables jacked my account and i havent been on smashboards in about six weeks

having read this thread, i now realize that me odds ripple and ipk were all frauds.

 

[Zigludo]

3.6 Bowser funnest Bowser

sd remix would blow your mind

 

[Zoa]

Actually ASC wasn't hit all that hard from what I've heard. It just takes four more frames before you can ASC at the fastest possible time. The charge hitbox was just pushed back to frame ten from frame three. ASC was a 14 frame action that got pushed back to frame 18.

Edit: Now that I think about it taking longer to charge AS is actually a good thing because charged AS sucks.

 

[DrinkingFood]

lunchables jacked my account and i havent been on smashboards in about six weeks

having read this thread, i now realize that me odds ripple and ipk were all frauds.

I was wondering where you went, I thought maybe sheik back throw change made you quit smash bros forever (and ever [and ever {and ever}])

 

[Zigludo]

I was wondering where you went, I thought maybe sheik back throw change made you quit smash bros forever (and ever [and ever {and ever}])

it actually did tho

 

[Strong Badam]

As funny as this may seem to you guys, there are few things more frustrating/aggravating to hear as a DT member who actually plays in the scene. American Bowser beat me because he outplayed me in that set, and implying that I think otherwise downplays his victory and calls my integrity into question for no reason at all. There were a slew of "yoo, we nerfin bowser noww?" in person after I lost to him, smh

And for what its worth, I didn't participate in any of the discussions for either D3 or Bowser (other than to mention problems with some of D3's kit that Ripple has brought up to me =P)

Yeah for real, it's so disrespectful. If that's how it works don't people think Toon Link woulda gotten massacred given our local scene? ROFL

Sometimes people are like "Lol Strong Bad protects his characters from getting nerfed!" where if people were able to read the DT forums they'd know that was the opposite. I took a break from the DT after 3.5 came out, showed back up in like February, nerfed a couple of my characters, then dipped again. When I came back, I nerfed another one of them. Without my action, none of my characters would have received changes, because the general consensus among high level players is that my characters are not problematic, so no one felt it necessary to start discussion on them. Sure enough, most of the people who say that kinda thing about you and I don't perform all too well in tournament. Doesn't stop them from trying to slander us though, it would seem =P

 

[Ripple]

people should not try to build upon my trolling/jokes....

 

[Boiko]

LOL this entire thread is literally just Bowser Redesign Discussion now.

To answer Boiko's original question... I think it's safe to say that 90% of Bowser mains are in agreement as to the fact that he's completely terrible now. And the objective data is there to back that claim up, as has been expounded upon a couple dozen times in the last two pages. And I think 95% liked the old Bowser better to boot, lol

Responses from two others Bowser players:

1.) "He's pretty good. I just have to adjust to him a bit more. Bowser does not suck now. Just deal with the changes. He didn't get a complete play style change like Zelda, so there's no reason to complain."

2.) "To be really honest, they were good changes but it makes Bowser boring and very normal. He just gets generalized punishes and still has even more problems with zoning and once he gets in, it's not as hard as a punish as before. I was very comfortable with the weird old armor heavy style."

 

[Nausicaa]

I love where Bowser is right now.
He can play a funky weird DD game and pivot F-Tilt like a boss.
For sure feels lacking in some neutral-breaking. Functional though.
Feels like a cool character while still being Bowser. A lil more flavor or something, and he's on the right track.

Yeah for real, it's so disrespectful. If that's how it works don't people think Toon Link woulda gotten massacred given our local scene? ROFL

Sometimes people are like "Lol Strong Bad protects his characters from getting nerfed!" where if people were able to read the DT forums they'd know that was the opposite. I took a break from the DT after 3.5 came out, showed back up in like February, nerfed a couple of my characters, then dipped again. When I came back, I nerfed another one of them. Without my action, none of my characters would have received changes, because the general consensus among high level players is that my characters are not problematic, so no one felt it necessary to start discussion on them. Sure enough, most of the people who say that kinda thing about you and I don't perform all too well in tournament. Doesn't stop them from trying to slander us though, it would seem =P

Apparently DK is too stornk

Remove his jumps and he'll be fine

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah for real, it's so disrespectful. If that's how it works don't people think Toon Link woulda gotten massacred given our local scene? ROFL

Sometimes people are like "Lol Strong Bad protects his characters from getting nerfed!" where if people were able to read the DT forums they'd know that was the opposite. I took a break from the DT after 3.5 came out, showed back up in like February, nerfed a couple of my characters, then dipped again. When I came back, I nerfed another one of them. Without my action, none of my characters would have received changes, because the general consensus among high level players is that my characters are not problematic, so no one felt it necessary to start discussion on them. Sure enough, most of the people who say that kinda thing about you and I don't perform all too well in tournament. Doesn't stop them from trying to slander us though, it would seem =P

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that if you were Supreme Overlord Dictator Big High PoobahCheese and had some kind of fetish for making your own characters OP, we'd actually be able to observe that - but DK is still kinda awful.


Anyway, anyone who thinks Bowser is fine right now, simply isn't camping him / getting camped with him hard enough, and not punishing him / getting punished hard enough. His fundamental flaw of being unable to force his opponent to interact with him got far worse this patch due to the dash attack nerf -- which was a bandaid, but a necessary one, given the weakness of the rest of his kit in neutral. His fundamental flaw of having an awful punish game compared to all the faster/better characters than him is similarly unaddressed. If an intelligent Fox/ZSS/Wolf/whatever the hell doesn't want to get hit in neutral, he doesn't get hit in neutral. If a competent Fox/ZSS/Wolf/whatever the hell wants to 0-death Bowser, it's pretty easy. Bowser seriously requires something huge and ridiculous and OP-feeling to level the playing field - probably several somethings. I've made suggestions along those lines in the past, and they were ignored. I fully expect to continue to be ignored, but maybe someone else will make good ones that the PMDT will find more palatable.

@ Boiko either of your friends going to LTC3? I'm happy to time them out with one of my alts and demonstrate.

 

[Boiko]

No, but they are going to Blacklisted.

 

[Nausicaa]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that if you were Supreme Overlord Dictator Big High PoobahCheese and had some kind of fetish for making your own characters OP, we'd actually be able to observe that - but DK is still kinda awful.


Anyway, anyone who thinks Bowser is fine right now, simply isn't camping him / getting camped with him hard enough. His fundamental flaw of being unable to force his opponent to interact with him got far worse this patch due to the dash attack nerf -- which was a bandaid, but a necessary one, given the weakness of the rest of his kit in neutral. If an intelligent Fox/ZSS/Wolf/whatever the hell doesn't want to get hit in neutral, he doesn't get hit in neutral. Bowser seriously requires something huge and ridiculous and OP-feeling to level the playing field - probably several somethings. I've made suggestions along those lines in the past, and they were ignored. I fully expect to continue to be ignored, but maybe someone else will make good ones that the PMDT will find more palatable.

@ Boiko either of your friends going to LTC3? I'm happy to time them out with one of my alts and demonstrate.

Time them out with Bowser
He's one of your Alts now, right?

Played 2 players (Nick and Jaiden) from your area recently. Asked both the same question. 'What does Odds do a lot of that I'm not right now'
Both said Klawing more and WLing a lot more and not WDing or Ftilting so much
Klaw as in neutral-breaking that is.
It's not cheese at all anymore, not even a hint of it. 3.6 after 3.5, and that thing is like an air-to-ground command grab almost exclusively now. DA gone, big range gone, no more neutral breaking at all.
Gotta get a positional advantage (SOMEHOW) just to use the moves without major risk.

That non-interacting character that used to threaten opponents to interact called Bowser now has to figure out how to interact with people on his own terms DIRECTLY.

Hard life
Fun as heck though

 

[Frost | Odds]

Not sure what you're getting at. The only reason to interact with Bowser is if you're terrible at Smash Bros, or you're feeling generous for some reason.

 

[didds]

where's bowser's chargeable "samus-esque" fireball that moves at the speed of shadowball and does 20 percent?

that would definitely make me approach bowser. or is that an impossible thing to do at this point?

 

[Draco_The]

where's bowser's chargeable "samus-esque" fireball that moves at the speed of shadowball and does 20 percent?

that would definitely make me approach bowser. or is that an impossible thing to do at this point?

AFAIK you would need to get rid of Fire Breath.

 

[didds]

darn, the 1 and 1/2 bowser's i know would never go for it, it's the only move they use

 

[Deleted member]

I was wondering where you went, I thought maybe sheik back throw change made you quit smash bros forever (and ever [and ever {and ever}])

i'm a little more reasonable than that (and not much)- i'd rather contribute to the game tbh.

my tl;dr is i feel like the fun has been nerfed out of the game, and not just sheik but shes a good example. sheik isnt "bad" per se (outside of top level, where she sucks) so much as shes just really boring now. all 3.6 did was push the sheik players out of the game and i would not be surprised if other characters were the same way. lack of depth + mediocre performance + loses to fox = cant exist in the meta.

 

[steelguttey]

jesus ****ing christ pit feels so good right now

hes basically dash dance jab the character but his combos feel so good. also stuff like glide ledge cancel to continue combos looks so fresh. glide attack does so much % and is a great combo extender and dthrow is just autocombos. his tech chases on spacies are dair tech chase dair tech chase dair fsmash and i love it.

thinking of duo maining him because oli isnt as fun right now but im not dropping the oliman dont worry

 

[DrinkingFood]

i'm a little more reasonable than that (and not much)- i'd rather contribute to the game tbh.

my tl;dr is i feel like the fun has been nerfed out of the game, and not just sheik but shes a good example. sheik isnt "bad" per se (outside of top level, where she sucks) so much as shes just really boring now. all 3.6 did was push the sheik players out of the game and i would not be surprised if other characters were the same way. lack of depth + mediocre performance + loses to fox = cant exist in the meta.

But surely fox doesn't demolish most of the cast anymore now the he has to shine you twice to kill you instead of once, or that his recovery sometimes occasionally has extra lag
Thank goodness we still have ROB as a fox counter oh wait

 

[Life]

jesus ****ing christ pit feels so good right now

hes basically dash dance jab the character but his combos feel so good. also stuff like glide ledge cancel to continue combos looks so fresh. glide attack does so much % and is a great combo extender and dthrow is just autocombos. his tech chases on spacies are dair tech chase dair tech chase dair fsmash and i love it.

thinking of duo maining him because oli isnt as fun right now but im not dropping the oliman dont worry

Do you have any VODs? This sounds much different from the Pit I play.

 

[steelguttey]

nah no vods yet. i might break him out in tournament soon depending on how much i grind netplay this week.

but basically since is dash dance is so good you can dash dance and then crouch and immediately jab, input is kinda hard and sometimes you get a dash attack or dtilt but most of the time you get a jab which leads into grab or fsmash if theyre at a high enough percent. his tilts in general are great

 

[didds]

Pikachu fox feels pretty even this patch

Pikachu for prez, he's for ending incarcerations for minor drug offenses too

he's the hero we need

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah for real, it's so disrespectful. If that's how it works don't people think Toon Link woulda gotten massacred given our local scene? ROFL

But... hes bottom 5

he sucks

how can you nerf him even more?!? I win with my PURE SKILL

 

[Electric Tuba]

Sorry, should have made it more clear that that wasn't sincere. Just wanted to make the joke, hoping everyone understands that the dev team is mature enough to put the game ahead of their own characters' success.

But seriously though bowser is not fun to play against competent opponents who aren't also playing bowser

 

[Shokio]

You Bowser guys should just pick up Olimar in the meantime. He's great.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

ICs v Bowser

ROFL

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ steelguttey
Who are you playing against that jabs combo into grabs? At what percents?

 

[The Baron]

ICs v Bowser

ROFL

That profile pic is terrifying. Make it go away please. Also, GIVE BOOZER SHINE OR A SHINE EQUIVALENT. or for a more reasonable solution/bandaid, give boozer fireball that has the properties that didds suggested or better. Don't settle for anything less

 

[NWRL]

Tink you're bad m8

you can't even beat Smashdad

 

[Draco_The]

Pikachu fox feels pretty even this patch

Pikachu for prez, he's for ending incarcerations for minor drug offenses too

he's the hero we need

****, now I know why your avatar seemed so familiar.

 

[eideeiit]

oh we the new social now?

E: also one of my dumb ideas: Would it be ok for all characters to have a control stick angle where they could use their dtilts while holding items like those that can crawl? It feels like such a massive counterplay option should be normalized and would encourage stealing the bananas and such a lot, which would most likely result in a lot of interesting stuff. Naturally this would be a nerf to at least Diddy, but tweaking other things is always possible.

 

[Journal]

So... Uh... Tier speculation?