Tier List Speculation

[Master WGS]

What if other Bowser mains disagree with you?

Hi, Bowser who beat Ally in tournament a month or so ago here. Late to the discussion without much to add, but I figured I would since it was apparently asked.

I haven't gotten to play a ton of people in 3.6 yet (been on vacation), but a lot of what I'm hearing from other Bowser mains, particularly Odds, are things I was beginning to suspect during the few friendlies I've played. The more I play, the less I'm enjoying this build.

 

[Nausicaa]

well maybe you never landed dsmash > downB > jump > fair/nair, which does the same thing as the new dsmash + about 20% damage and could KO

Yeah, I definitely like the 3.6 one more. lol

 

[jtm94]

No. Bowser is bad and deserves to be bad like Zelda.
You could almost use him in 3.5 and that was too much. I'm upset he can still walk.

Rome wasn't built in day or something. It wasn't like you could effectively solo main Bowser before. I believe he still has redeeming qualities as a CP character on small stages at the least. It's been proven that sometimes it takes more than a version to hash out a character's changes and I'd rather have it take longer than it has to just to avoid Bowser becoming Captain Falcon over the course of a version.

 

[Electric Tuba]

No. Bowser is bad and deserves to be bad like Zelda.
You could almost use him in 3.5 and that was too much. I'm upset he can still walk.

Rome wasn't built in day or something. It wasn't like you could effectively solo main Bowser before. I believe he still has redeeming qualities as a CP character on small stages at the least. It's been proven that sometimes it takes more than a version to hash out a character's changes and I'd rather have it take longer than it has to just to avoid Bowser becoming Captain Falcon over the course of a version.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that bowser should only be good enough to win a couple specific matchups on a couple specific stages and be horrible the other 90% of the time? Or are you just saying that's what he is now?

Yeah, I definitely like the 3.6 one more. lol

So... 20% ish now, instead of 40% and a KO/easy edgeguard last patch?

 

[eideeiit]

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that bowser should only be good enough to win a couple specific matchups on a couple specific stages and be horrible the other 90% of the time? Or are you just saying that's what he is now?


So... 20% ish now, instead of 40% and a KO/easy edgeguard last patch?

psst...

1.) He's saying it's better to take our time and not make a 3.02 character.
2.) He's the guy playing against Bowser.

 

[Jacob29]

I'd help out explaining about Bowser but it seems that literally everything else has already been said.

I'm no professional so the changes haven't hid me as hard, and same as Odds I am glad for the changes that have been implemented due to degeneracy.

But he does indeed feel like a much weaker character at the moment. DK still legit though so oh well!

 

[Zigludo]

I don't think you could make Bowser into a "3.02 character" if you tried, lol. Not without changing him to something fundamentally different from Bowser

 

[eideeiit]

I don't think you could make Bowser into a "3.02 character" if you tried, lol. Not without changing him to something fundamentally different from Bowser

Maybe not in terms of how good he is, but in terms of how annoying/gimmicky he is to play against, sure.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Maybe not in terms of how good he is, but in terms of how annoying/gimmicky he is to play against, sure.

As long as he doesn't have any degenerate, fast, long range moves that plow through absolutely everything, probably not.

Fortunately, we've learned from 3.5 dash attack.

 

[Zigludo]

As long as he doesn't have any degenerate, fast, long range moves that plow through absolutely everything, probably not.

Fortunately, we've learned from 3.5 dash attack.

it doesnt plow through shields lol.

out of curiosity, would you be okay with the old dash attack angle and knockback stats if the armor was removed? I thought it was fine the way it was, but you've come down on the 3.5 da pretty hard in the past... and also in that post, lol

 

[Dotcom]

Is it even possible to add a [Toon]Link/Lucas Z-Air mechanic to Olimar? I think he'd be finished with that addition and some bug fixes.
@Strong Bad @ Ripple

 

[Frost | Odds]

The armor is pretty essential, though light armor doesn't seem to be enough to go through much of anything, so I'm not really sure. I'd be more inclined to experiment with either reducing the endlag pretty dramatically (reverting the 3.6b endlag change, plus maybe another couple frames) and leaving the rest of the changes.

Even compared to that, though, I'd vastly prefer to leave dash attack kinda bad and give Bowser the great moves that his visual design implies - ie. his smash attacks.

 

[DrinkingFood]

How can 5 frames endlag increase be a big problem when bowser can outreach most characters in the air anyway

 

[Zigludo]

I've never understood your obsession with nerfing all of Bowser's moves in order to buff up his smash attacks, man. Why should characters like Fox, Peach, Pika, Ike, DK, Falco, etc, be allowed to have guaranteed repeated followups on fastfallers in the form of chaingrabs, but Bowser dashattack chaining into itself is degenerate or whatever? It's really only that crazy on FD, and you can always ban FD in most PM rulesets so you can always tech a platform or whatever.

Meanwhile Bowser's smashes just seem totally unglamorous to me. Like why is it so toxic for Bowser to have a really strong and fast Fair when that's basically what you propose for the fsmash ftilt and dsmash? aerials >>> grounded moves anyway, the old tipper Fair was really cool.

EDIT: in retrospect this post is kinda just a personal conversation with Odds lol, not really relevant to tier list discussion. whoops. I just don't think there was anything wrong with Bowser's old design

 

[Soft Serve]

Buff bowser all you want, unless you give him a shine and a float diddy will still poop on him.

#yougetashine
#yougetashine
#everyonegetsashine

#floatboyz


(Seriously though I feel bad for big Bodie character mains. Destined to get combo fodder for all eternity, having strong moves that kill a big sooner than the faster characters but no good ways to set then up if the opponent is holding the controler)

Just play sword ganon, he's broken

 

[SushiKiller]

How can 5 frames endlag increase be a big problem when bowser can outreach most characters in the air anyway

If u miss the attack and l cancel u are always going to get comboed really hard like 120%combos

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Zigludo check the skype chat.

How can 5 frames endlag increase be a big problem when bowser can outreach most characters in the air anyway

I don't think it makes a huge gameplay difference outside of doubles, but it messes with my muscle memory like all hell.

 

[Ripple]

Is it even possible to add a [Toon]Link/Lucas Z-Air mechanic to Olimar? I think he'd be finished with that addition and some bug fixes.
@Strong Bad @ Ripple

strong bad might as well add me as DT since everyone already thinks I am part of it

 

[Frost | Odds]

strong bad might as well add me as DT since everyone already thinks I am part of it

Me too, but so that I can actually take the fall for my own mistakes, rather than cmart feeling like crap because everybody dogpiles her. Despite how often I disagree with her decisions, Susan works incredibly hard.

 

[Zigludo]

Maybe not in terms of how good he is, but in terms of how annoying/gimmicky he is to play against, sure.

But that's exactly what I meant lol. Bowser has always been a super legit character, not fraudulent at all unless your opponent literally failed to understand the concept of armor or upB oos. the only axis on which Bowser has been insane was probably like his missed Rest / shield break punish with fsmash, and his edgeguarding which got nerfed this patch

 

[NW_Gump]

The thing about big characters in smash is that they don't really have enough "outside the box" moves in order to make them a presence in the neutral. DDD's waddle dash is kind of like that, but not quite enough. For Example, in Guilty Gear, Potemkin (the grappler), has a move called slide head. It's a full screen, unblockable move that doesn't do a lot of damage but it knocks down if the opponent is on the ground. This allows for the Potemkin player to get in closer if the opponent is trying to just stay away and is caught sleeping. Potemkin also has a move in Xrd that is a big dive from the air that if cancelled gives him an interesting aerial movement option. As well as his F.D.B. allowing him to flick projectiles back at the opponent. All these things, in conjunction with his ground command grab and his anti-air command grab gives him some of the most interesting and unique options a grappler has in fighting games. Obviously these moves if cut and pasted to bowser wouldn't work, projectiles being to fast, opponents hardly ever staying on the ground long enough to be hit by a grounded unblockable, etc. but I do think that when trying to create a big body/power/heavy hitter style character in a game that's reliant on quick movement options and fast paced neutral, you have to help the big guys out more than just making them do more damage. This is all just my big dumb opinion though.

TL;DR Bowser's flaws and low power level are a design issue and he needs to be given tools that may not have been seen in smash before in order to engage in the neutral like other big bodies in traditional fighting games

 

[Frost | Odds]

(Seriously though I feel bad for big Bodie character mains. Destined to get combo fodder for all eternity, having strong moves that kill a big sooner than the faster characters but no good ways to set then up if the opponent is holding the controler)

That's the really infuriating thing. The spacies' kill moves are all better than bowser's in every meaningful capacity. Fox kills Bowser from the middle of the stage earlier than Bowser can do the same to Fox.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Gump nailed it.

It's also important to consider that when comparing grapplers like Big Band, Gief, and Potemkin to Bowser, the non smash characters get punished as hard as everyone else in their games (with a couple exceptions). Bowser gets combo'd WAY harder than say Fox, GnW, Marth. So, even with massive damage, he's still getting touch-of-deathed by a lot of characters.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Gump nailed it.

It's also important to consider that when comparing grapplers like Big Band, Gief, and Potemkin to Bowser, the non smash characters get punished as hard as everyone else in their games (with a couple exceptions). Bowser gets combo'd WAY harder than say Fox, GnW, Marth. So, even with massive damage, he's still getting touch-of-deathed by a lot of characters.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Obviously these moves if cut and pasted to bowser wouldn't work, projectiles being to fast, opponents hardly ever staying on the ground long enough to be hit by a grounded unblockable, etc. but I do think that when trying to create a big body/power/heavy hitter style character in a game that's reliant on quick movement options and fast paced neutral, you have to help the big guys out more than just making them do more damage. This is all just my big dumb opinion though.

TL;DR Bowser's flaws and low power level are a design issue and he needs to be given tools that may not have been seen in smash before in order to engage in the neutral like other big bodies in traditional fighting games

Let's not make him a traditional grappler then.

Maxima, Ralf & Clark. Big slow** characters that can compete with the best of 'em.

*Slow in the context of KoF

 

[Frost | Odds]

Double post? Don't care. I like both of them.

People like to play pretend that Bowser's punish game is somehow stronger than other characters, but it's easy to forget that he gets punished at least as hard as any of his opponents, who typically have touch of death on him. This means that not only does he have to climb way uphill to win neutral at all, but he has to win neutral many more times in order to level out the punish game. His weaknesses in neutral and the punish game amplify each other in an exponential fashion.

Just to grossly simplify things, let's say that it's twice as difficult for Bowser to hit Fox in neutral as the converse. Similarly, let's also say that Bowser can punish Fox roughly half as hard as Fox can punish Bowser -- in this hugely oversimplified model, this means that a Bowser player needs to work four times as hard as a Fox player of equal skill in that matchup.

I'm not saying that Bowser has to work twice as hard in neutral, or that his punishes are half as hard as Fox's. I'm saying it's much, much worse than that on both counts.

Is that okay? It's not with me, but I, of course, am just a whiny, fraudulent, gimmicky solo main who doesn't happen to play a Melee top tier. So, I'm biased.

 

[NW_Gump]

Let's not make him a traditional grappler then.

Maxima, Ralf & Clark. Big slow** characters that can compete with the best of 'em.

*Slow in the context of KoF

I definitely agree with you, he doesn't have to be a traditional grappler at all, but the traditional "slow but powerful" seems to be what PMDT is aiming towards. When you look at KOF's universal systems, the roll helps all three of them get through projectiles and gives them another option in neutral, as well as the jump/hop system. That's more like "Look at how great KOF is as a fighting game".

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I definitely agree with you, he doesn't have to be a traditional grappler at all, but the traditional "slow but powerful" seems to be what PMDT is aiming towards. When you look at KOF's universal systems, the roll helps all three of them get through projectiles and gives them another option in neutral, as well as the jump/hop system. That's more like "Look at how great KOF is as a fighting game".

Yea, it's not a complete solution like mentioned earlier w/ Zangief. Obviously the hardest part is applying these good traits in the paradigm of Smash. Maybe the cast could benefit from tweaks being to done to subsystems (Shields, Rolls, Dodges for example) in Smash rather than tweaking the characters individually. That's a whole other discussion though.

 

[FreeGamer]

Let's be honest... is there any conceivable way to make a slow character good without generating a continent of salt from the community? :/

 

[Mr.Pickle]

@The_NZA - I actually agree with what you posted, from what I skimmed over concerning wario, g&w, and snake....but I respectfully disagree with your stance on link. I do agree that they went in the right direction with his design, but it's far from perfect and I think you're severely overestimating him.

 

[Ripple]

Let's be honest... is there any conceivable way to make a slow character good without generating a continent of salt from the community? :/

yeah, there is.


maybe they should have usable Spot dodges and rolls for a starter?

 

[Electric Tuba]

yeah, there is.


maybe they should have usable Spot dodges and rolls for a starter?

Just pointing out (in agreement) that if Bowser spot dodges a standard grab (not a tether), another grab WILL connect before he can act. It's not a small frame window.

 

[Zigludo]

Let's be honest... is there any conceivable way to make a slow character good without generating a continent of salt from the community? :/

absolutely. frankly, we were almost there with 3.5 Bowser. he only had a few holes that needed to be patched. instead he basically got stripped almost all the way back down to Melee Bowser in every facet

 

[Frost | Odds]

Let's be honest... is there any conceivable way to make a slow character good without generating a continent of salt from the community? :/

They're not Melee characters, so probably not. :|

Pretty much all my nerf suggestions were in order to decrease salt levels in order to be able to provide Bowser with real, meaningful quality of life improvements without making all the whiny melee players/ character specialists cry and quit the game. If we can't have those improvements, though, **** 'em. We could have a 10 frame command grab with heavy armor and Bowser would still suck, but at least I'd get to make the local terribads cry some more. Maybe we haven't been selfish/demanding/noisy enough. I don't know.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I firmly am in the camp that in order to have good, but not degenerate heavies would require a massive retooling of how both quick and slow characters work. The defensive option thing is a good start, but realistically you need much more disparity between kill percents. You can't have mobile characters like Squirtle, Fox, Pikachu, and Falcon having such amazing kill moves and the ability to easily combo into them. Heavies can't just have range/hit damage as there only positive while also having so many downsides.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I firmly am in the camp that in order to have good, but not degenerate heavies would require a massive retooling of how both quick and slow characters work. The defensive option thing is a good start, but realistically you need much more disparity between kill percents. You can't have mobile characters like Squirtle, Fox, Pikachu, and Falcon having such amazing kill moves and the ability to easily combo into them. Heavies can't just have range/hit damage as [their only upsides] while also having so many downsides.

This hits the nail on the head harder than I ever could. Quoted, bolded, sigged, all of it. I'm getting this tattooed on each of my arms and my forehead, and naming my firstborn Gravy Train.

 

[Ripple]

maybe give the fatties a slightly faster grab? like a frame 5 sounds good. just spitballing here.

and every fatty deserves a kill throw

 

[Zigludo]

maybe give the fatties a slightly faster grab? like a frame 5 sounds good. just spitballing here.

and every fatty deserves a kill throw

we used to have uthrow fair lol. rip that

 

[Ripple]

that doesn't work if you miss the max % that works at.

I mean KILL throws. like zard's seismic toss should absolutely be a staple of fatties

 

[FreeGamer]

absolutely. frankly, we were almost there with 3.5 Bowser. he only had a few holes that needed to be patched. instead he basically got stripped almost all the way back down to Melee Bowser in every facet

And at that point, he was IMO handled much better than other slow characters, like say Kirby or Link or Zelda. Is it really a good idea to design characters around a few super amazing moves, then peel back those moves and leave everything else as is?