Tier List Speculation

[PsionicSabreur]

Thoughts on Lucario, specifically aerial side b super?
I've been thinking that it really eliminates a lot of limitations that Lucario would otherwise have. It removes the necessity for long, high-damage combos, since you can just combo to carry offstage and then spike at pretty low %s (although admittedly you'll need two charges if you plan to do so with up-b cancel). It can be pretty abusive against poor recoveries, as spikes generally are, and cuts your opponents "life bar" fairly short, which is sort of odd on a traditional FG-inspired character. On top of that, it's a throw, so no worries about SDI saving your opponent when you're near the edge.
I have no clue how it could really be changed, though. At this point it seems like it's already a part of Lucario that people like, and it isn't clearly broken or anything. Compared to other spikes it's also quite situational; you can't use it on a grounded opponent or to beat out recoveries very well.

I've probably just watched one too many Lucario combo videos and not enough actual gameplay, although I'm still genuinely afraid of 20XX Lucario being such a clear-cut and efficient character, all things considered.

 

[PootisKonga]

Please

The future of PM is clearly 20KK


You know, Koopa King?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

But yes, I like big, powerful punishers

... I'll punish you

So why exactly did people stop thinking mk is top10?

No od dive kick, ez combo weight, no od dthrow etc

 

[zFrost]

meta knight lost a jump, huge utility on cape and while brawl dair is decent it's no hell breaker

 

[Player -0]

Ez flirts everywhere. Breh, I thought you had a bae.



Link's boomerang is super hard to combo off of now. It almost feels right though.

 

[MrKandy]

Clearly, Captain Falcon makes Top tier, if not even higher. Ganondorf alike.

 

[Phyvo]

Thoughts on Lucario, specifically aerial side b super?
I've been thinking that it really eliminates a lot of limitations that Lucario would otherwise have. It removes the necessity for long, high-damage combos, since you can just combo to carry offstage and then spike at pretty low %s (although admittedly you'll need two charges if you plan to do so with up-b cancel). It can be pretty abusive against poor recoveries, as spikes generally are, and cuts your opponents "life bar" fairly short, which is sort of odd on a traditional FG-inspired character. On top of that, it's a throw, so no worries about SDI saving your opponent when you're near the edge.
I have no clue how it could really be changed, though. At this point it seems like it's already a part of Lucario that people like, and it isn't clearly broken or anything. Compared to other spikes it's also quite situational; you can't use it on a grounded opponent or to beat out recoveries very well.

I've probably just watched one too many Lucario combo videos and not enough actual gameplay, although I'm still genuinely afraid of 20XX Lucario being such a clear-cut and efficient character, all things considered.

From all the gameplay I've watched (and I've watched Lucarios from many regions) they rarely use their aura charge on aerial side B. The majority of the time it's to cancel up-B, a bit less of the time it's for down-B, and a bit less than that it's spirit bomb, with situational use of side-B for killing. In fact one of the sicker combos I've seen was Up-B into the opponent to carry them off the ledge into aura cancel foot stool. That doesn't mean that they never use side-B or that it isn't a great move, just that often times using aura to get back onto stage or approach safely is better right now.

 

[kaizo13]

so, if i'm not mistaken the removal of QAC2 was mostly an effort to tone down pikachu's recovery, which i think most of us can agree with...but after messing around with 3.5 pikachu i can say the removal of QAC2 as an onstage tool was pretty uncalled for. i mean the move already has little to no priority yet it has the potential to bring out innovative and exciting play from pika mains.

i think 3.6 pika is a good candidate for the mewtwo fix. no QAC after double jump. problems solved right?

 

[steelguttey]

how about if qa1 was done offstage you get no qac

 

[Player -0]

Not being able to QAC once you're hit seems fair enough. That was one of the main ideas that seemed the best for the changing of QAC'ing.

Also what's different about Dair from Melee -> P:M Marth?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Ok for everyone who thinks the QaC nerfs hindered Pikachu

The nerfs ONLY affected his recovery, side b no longer snaps to ledges and onstage recovery now has endlag. But even with that his recovery is still better than most characters, a lot of characters dont have that kind of distance and mix ups at their disposal. Also the uair makes it risky to go out and try to edge guard pika before the quick attack.

Onstage platform movement is still a big thing with quick attack 2, and it is very easy in this version
here's a stupid video I made for kicks and giggles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNFxT4BgUg&feature=player_detailpage
that took like 5 minutes to make, it is very easy to do. That adds back his platform mobility options, although they are a bit more restricted.

And when your on the ground you don't need QaC 2, instead you can just do 2 really fast QaC 1's and it will work the same.

Also, QaC 1 is and always has been better in the neutral than QaC 2.

The nerfs weren't even as bad as they sounded, they just toned down his recovery and stopped it from negating positional advantage as much. 3.5 Pikachu can play almost exactly the same as 3.0 Pikachu.

 

[PlateProp]

Everyone take a minute to think abouthow dumb peach dsmash is for a minute, then resume tier listing

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Ez flirts everywhere. Breh, I thought you had a bae.

About to have a new one.

 

[kaizo13]

@ PandaPanda Senketsu
thanks for the insight, i can see how the current iteration of QAC may be sufficient to provide for some added mobility.

i will say though, that ledge cancels in PM maybe aren't where they should be, as they seem rather easy to pull off. Characters just slide off ledges in this game like butter

 

[Deleted member]

 

[Frost | Odds]

So, you're migrating to C-Stick-Attack is what you're saying?

EDIT: also, solid match analysis. enjoying so far

EDIT2: oh my god your mom is adorable

 

[mimgrim]

But yes, I like big, powerful punishers

*insert inappropriate joke here*

Everyone take a minute to think abouthow dumb peach dsmash is for a minute, then resume tier listing

Each of the Melee top tiers have something dumb to them. But only like 2 of them had their dumbness fixed. :L

EDIT: also, solid match analysis. enjoying so far

EDIT2: oh my god your mom is adorable

Wat.

 

[Slaudial]

pretty sure meatknight doesn't have the Brawl Dair

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

pretty sure meatknight doesn't have the Brawl Dair

He does now in 3.5

 

[Slaudial]

He does now in 3.5

I think you need to get your eyes checked. Next you're going to tell me that he has the Brawl Shuttle Loop or Brawl Uair.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I think you need to get your eyes checked. Next you're going to tell me that he has the Brawl Shuttle Loop or Brawl Uair.

In terms of animation, it is brawl's dair. As for the properties of it from Brawl, that may be different.

 

[ChiePet]

So, like..
..Peach is back in Top, yes?

Yes.
Honestly, besides the additional characters creating a ripple effect (and then some) to what would be expected of Melee's Meta, She gained AGT, DACUS (DThrow >DACUS = Floaty-Killer), A better UTilt, I'm really unsure of what she'd be missing at all.

TL;DR, Where Peach at now, Yo. I don't agree with that 3rd Worst BS or even that she places "Lucario's spot" height.

 

[Strong Badam]

so goooooood

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Hmmm
Looks like sb wants nerf

 

[Boiko]

After playing with JReed for a few hours last night, I'm convinced Marth is a bit higher than we're giving him credit for.

 

[Deleted member]

After playing with JReed for a few hours last night, I'm convinced Marth is a bit higher than we're giving him credit for.

did you do tournament sets with stage striking and counterpicking? in free play marth is quite good but hes considerably worse when it actually counts

 

[Boiko]

did you do tournament sets with stage striking and counterpicking? in free play marth is quite good but hes considerably worse when it actually counts

We didn't, and I'll admit the majority of the stages we ended up playing on favor Marth in the Marth-Ness MU (Yoshi's Brawl [rip Ness' chance of ever coming down], Battlefield, GHZ), and even then, we were relatively even. But something about Marth's ability to cover so many options quickly, and of course his juggles and grab game made me reconsider his placement in the middle of mid tier. Instead I feel like I would put him at the bottom of high or the top of mid. Not a drastic improvement, just a bit better than I originally thought.

 

[Rizner]

We didn't, and I'll admit the majority of the stages we ended up playing on favor Marth in the Marth-Ness MU (Yoshi's Brawl [rip Ness' chance of ever coming down], Battlefield, GHZ), and even then, we were relatively even. But something about Marth's ability to cover so many options quickly, and of course his juggles and grab game made me reconsider his placement in the middle of mid tier. Instead I feel like I would put him at the bottom of high or the top of mid. Not a drastic improvement, just a bit better than I originally thought.

I don't think the Ness matchup is really a good indicator of things. I think marth could be upper mid, but Ness loses harder than others against disjoint, good grabs, landing and recovering, pretty much marth traits.

 

[steelguttey]

oh boy someone is arguig with boiko about ness matchups

heeere we go

 

[JOE!]

I wanna see Umbreon play Sora and see what happens

 

[Player -0]

Isn't it commonly agreed that the Ness-Marth MU is in Marth's favor?

 

[Boiko]

I don't think the Ness matchup is really a good indicator of things. I think marth could be upper mid, but Ness loses harder than others against disjoint, good grabs, landing and recovering, pretty much marth traits.

You're right, those are Ness' primary weaknesses, but it's not so much about how the match up went down, it's more about the observations I made regarding Marth's options coverage. Not only that, but he played against a solid Fox, Charizard, Tink, Marth. I'm at work otherwise I'd write more.

 

[Rizner]

You're right, those are Ness' primary weaknesses, but it's not so much about how the match up went down, it's more about the observations I made regarding Marth's options coverage. Not only that, but he played against a solid Fox, Charizard, Tink, Marth. I'm at work otherwise I'd write more.

Ah, ok. That makes sense, then. Good to know more was considered and whatnot

 

[jtm94]

I wanna see Umbreon play Sora and see what happens

I watched it a couple times in my head.
It kinda looked like the Leffen vs Chillindude set.

 

[steelguttey]

I watched it a couple times in my head.
It kinda looked like the Leffen vs Chillindude set.

bang

 

[Ripple]

$10 on Umbreon.

 

[Deleted member]

i'd much rather sit down with sora and trade notes in free play than make another rivalry.

god knows i need another rivalry LOL

 

[The Baron]

I watched it a couple times in my head.
It kinda looked like the Leffen vs Chillindude set.

wait, who's leffen and who's chillin in this situation

 

[Beorn]

Ok for everyone who thinks the QaC nerfs hindered Pikachu

The nerfs ONLY affected his recovery, side b no longer snaps to ledges and onstage recovery now has endlag. But even with that his recovery is still better than most characters, a lot of characters dont have that kind of distance and mix ups at their disposal. Also the uair makes it risky to go out and try to edge guard pika before the quick attack.

Onstage platform movement is still a big thing with quick attack 2, and it is very easy in this version
here's a stupid video I made for kicks and giggles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNFxT4BgUg&feature=player_detailpage
that took like 5 minutes to make, it is very easy to do. That adds back his platform mobility options, although they are a bit more restricted.

And when your on the ground you don't need QaC 2, instead you can just do 2 really fast QaC 1's and it will work the same.

Also, QaC 1 is and always has been better in the neutral than QaC 2.

The nerfs weren't even as bad as they sounded, they just toned down his recovery and stopped it from negating positional advantage as much. 3.5 Pikachu can play almost exactly the same as 3.0 Pikachu.

This video looks like the kinda thing taht should be on PM depot.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

This video looks like the kinda thing taht should be on PM depot.

How do I join