Tier List Speculation

[D e l t a]

Gonna just jump into the thread here.

First off, I am only recently getting into Melee and am in no way an elitist or fanboy. I love PM and the characters in it.

This game is still called PROJECT MELEE

• It's a professional mod made to not include super jank stuff such as Brawl / Melee plus/minus, but also keep gameplay similar to the game it's named after.
• The game was intended to play similar to Melee while buffing certain lower tiered characters like Bowser & Zelda, and only changing broken aspects of high tiers: Fox's invincible shine, Falco's Dair / Sheik's Uair sweetspot remaining out for a long time.

I don't agree with certain buffs / nerfs on the cast as of 3.5, but the game is finally approaching balance. A number of characters will still have bad MU's, but the goal was to make it so that cast members will have a balanced spread overall. Similar to 64's gameplay, despite Kirby / Pika being top of the tier list, players like Isai will win with almost any character in the game, simply because the characters all have somewhat equal skill.

Fox will be Fox, but his Uair / Upsmash are drastically weakened and laser camping isn't nearly as effective as it was in Melee. Lucas got nerfed, but he is still playable despite many weakened aspects to a character that wasn't 100% broken. Characters like Luigi & Peach don't have much that will be changed about them, simply because they aren't the best nor the worst.

The metagame hasn't settled enough for people to learn every matchup. As soon as one person comes along and shows how good they became with a character, suddenly PM just wants to nerf everything about that character into oblivion. Slow, yet warranted changes are acceptable to vastly broken aspects of a character. Asking for a character to completely be thrown in the trash because they have a few good elements is not something the community should be doing. Now that we have the power to mod games, suddenly everybody wants this or that to be nerfed/buffed. This mindset is toxic and needs to be stopped.

tl;dr The game is supposed to resemble Melee, not some mod that allows your main to be the most broken character and give you a free win.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Gonna just jump into the thread here.

First off, I am only recently getting into Melee and am in no way an elitist or fanboy. I love PM and the characters in it.

This game is still called PROJECT MELEE

• It's a professional mod made to not include super jank stuff such as Brawl / Melee plus/minus, but also keep gameplay similar to the game it's named after.
• The game was intended to play similar to Melee while buffing certain lower tiered characters like Bowser & Zelda, and only changing broken aspects of high tiers: Fox's invincible shine, Falco's Dair / Sheik's Uair sweetspot remaining out for a long time.

I don't agree with certain buffs / nerfs on the cast as of 3.5, but the game is finally approaching balance. A number of characters will still have bad MU's, but the goal was to make it so that cast members will have a balanced spread overall. Similar to 64's gameplay, despite Kirby / Pika being top of the tier list, players like Isai will win with almost any character in the game, simply because the characters all have somewhat equal skill.

Fox will be Fox, but his Uair / Upsmash are drastically weakened and laser camping isn't nearly as effective as it was in Melee. Lucas got nerfed, but he is still playable despite many weakened aspects to a character that wasn't 100% broken. Characters like Luigi & Peach don't have much that will be changed about them, simply because they aren't the best nor the worst.

The metagame hasn't settled enough for people to learn every matchup. As soon as one person comes along and shows how good they became with a character, suddenly PM just wants to nerf everything about that character into oblivion. Slow, yet warranted changes are acceptable to vastly broken aspects of a character. Asking for a character to completely be thrown in the trash because they have a few good elements is not something the community should be doing. Now that we have the power to mod games, suddenly everybody wants this or that to be nerfed/buffed. This mindset is toxic and needs to be stopped.

tl;dr The game is supposed to resemble Melee, not some mod that allows your main to be the most broken character and give you a free win.

I don't know who you're arguing with but I don't like you.

 

[Narpas_sword]

it's not supposed to resemble melee at all.

or we'd only have 8 characters on the roster.

 

[Player -0]

Project M stopped having Melee represented by the M a long time ago. Also Isai is 2gud to be used in an example like that.

 

[Ningildo]

Except that the M does not stand for Super Spacie Bros anymore.

I'm not sure if anyone had any complaints about anyone being broken/op (bar fox, the can of worms for another thread), as I haven't seen any in this thread. So who exactly is whining...?

That said, I don't think anyone here minds some oli buffs? I mean, it's not like he's been considered low or worse for two versions now, or anything...(would still play him regardless in case of no buffs).

Please let PM be it's own thing instead Melee 2.0, the only thing it should be taking from Melee is it's physics / mechanics, lest we have another 20XX.

 

[Binary Clone]

This game is still called PROJECT MELEE

• It's a professional mod made to not include super jank stuff such as Brawl / Melee plus/minus, but also keep gameplay similar to the game it's named after.

I just kind of stopped reading after this.

Uh... Actually, it's called Project M. It hasn't been called Project Melee for a long time, and I'm pretty sure the PMDT has made the distinction in order to distance PM from being "Melee 2.0" like that.

Also, the definition of "professional" is either "relating to a profession" or "engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime," neither of which apply to the PMDT.

 

[D e l t a]

All I keep seeing is how Fox is still so broken and that most characters aren't as good in 3.5 anymore. Fox got nerfed slightly down, but he's still going to remain similar to Melee, because that's the entirety of this mod. Same goes to all other iterations of Melee characters, give or take on the significance of changes. The Brawl chars were designed with a Melee aspect in mind, not to be their same crappy / broken self.

 

[Binary Clone]

All I keep seeing is how Fox is still so broken and that most characters aren't as good in 3.5 anymore. Fox got nerfed slightly down, but he's still going to remain similar to Melee, because that's the entirety of this mod. Same goes to all other iterations of Melee characters, give or take on the significance of changes. The Brawl chars were designed with a Melee aspect in mind, not to be their same crappy / broken self.

Did you just screencap that without reading that?

inspired by

similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone.

And, uh, most characters aren't as good in 3.5 as their 3.0 iterations. That's kind of what across-the-board nerfs tend to do.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also fox's upair is not weakened it's still stupid

Also also, nobody has asked for characters to be nerfed so that they get a free win, they ask for the character to be nerfed so the other guy doesn't either just because he's maining [top tier]

 

[D e l t a]

Also fox's upair is not weakened it's still stupid

It's easy to DI out of Uthrow -> Uair now. Uair does less damage which also allows an easier time to SDI the first hit. The only thing dumb is how it combos into itself about 2-4 times if you don't DI / SDI away properly

If we're talking about stupid Uairs, Lucas & Yoshi's Uairs combo into itself multiple times and Yoshi's has ridiculous kill power

 

[robosteven]

guys topic change does the M even stand for anything anymore or is it just a letter

 

[D e l t a]

guys topic change does the M even stand for anything anymore or is it just a letter

Stands for Melee. No matter what anybody says, the M is for Melee just as others like to abbreviate the name to PM

 

[Narpas_sword]

It's easy to DI out of Uthrow -> Uair now. Uair does less damage which also allows an easier time to SDI the first hit. r

Wut..?

im pretty pretty pretty sure that SDI is possible during the hitlag frames, and that higher damage = more hitlag

 

[DrinkingFood]

It's easy to DI out of Uthrow -> Uair now. Uair does less damage which also allows an easier time to SDI the first hit. The only thing dumb is how it combos into itself about 2-4 times if you don't DI / SDI away properly

If we're talking about stupid Uairs, Lucas & Yoshi's Uairs combo into itself multiple times and Yoshi's has ridiculous kill power

It's not any easier to DI out of it than it was before. If you mean the throw itself, you could always link that into at least to the first uair hit in Melee (and still in PM) except on heavies who make your throw too slow. PM has more good heavies now, since they all sucked in Melee.

Lucas's isn't comparable since lower knockback means it's more likely to get interrupted by platforms and he doesn't have a throw guaranteed to set-up into it at most percents.
And Yoshi's doesn't kill as early as Fox's does.

 

[D e l t a]

*second hit of Uair does less damage, the first hit is still 10x easier to SDI than in Melee

 

[Ripple]

SDI is independent of damage in pm. Unlike melee where more damage is more hitlag.

Why people make up all of this crap about fox is beyond me. I've heard so many false things

 

[Player -0]

PMDT probably compensated for that. This guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about AND is a bigot. I think ignoring him is the best option.

Edit - Thanks Ripple. The more you know... I probably should've assumed from the hitlag modifier changes from 3.02 -> 3.5 though.

Edit 2 - I'm also pretty sure you SDI during hitstun not hitlag.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Second hit of uair only does less damage because it doesn't stale immediately after the first hit in PM like it does in Melee. So it was adjusted in 3.5 to account for that.
If you get both hits of a fresh uair in both games it should be the same damage. Plus the knockback was compensated there, too.

@ Ripple does melee not use SDI multipliers?

 

[Ripple]

Edit 2 - I'm also pretty sure you SDI during hitstun not hitlag.

Incorrect.

Also, no. Melee does not use hitlag multipliers. It uses a formula for all hits that is damage plus 3 times .333 times 1.5 if electric with a maximum of 20 frames

 

[Player -0]

I always forget the difference.

 

[steelguttey]

this guy is whining about yoshi's up air and didnt read an article he screencapped what the fuuuuuckkkk

 

[Frakture]

So how is hitstun calculated in PM?

 

[Ripple]

The same way as melee. Strong Bad knows the formula

 

[Frakture]

You just posted the formula for melee though.

 

[Ripple]

I posted the formula for hitlag. Not hitstun.

I'm not sure exactly how hitlag is calculated in pm with independent multipliers

 

[Frakture]

Whoops, I meant to type hitlag, my bad.

Hitlag is calculated the same way as in melee, except you just multiply the hitlag by the modifiers. Both players are affected, unless the opponent is shielding, in which case only the attacker experiences the modifier.

Also, the changelog says that the first hit of Fox's upair had the damage reduced by 1. That would tend to make it harder to SDI out of.

 

[Player -0]

Those secret Fox buffs? Kappa

 

[Jolteon]

SDI is independent of damage in pm. Unlike melee where more damage is more hitlag.

Why people make up all of this crap about fox is beyond me. I've heard so many false things

this isn't true dude lol.

 

[D e l t a]

this guy is whining about yoshi's up air and didnt read an article he screencapped what the fuuuuuckkkk

Not whining, just saying certain things are silly at times. Like Ness' mag pushing you away, while Lucas' mag pulls you in. The entirety of smash could be classified as silly. Dinosaurs, an electric mouse, Mexican plumber with an Italian accent made by Japanese, fighting princesses, etc.

 

[Player -0]

So what's the point of your post?

 

[_A1]

Whether or not the "M" stands for Melee (it doesn't anymore), PM is basically supposed to be the essence of Melee, with more characters, legal stages, balance, moves/advanced techniques from the other games, dynamic playstyles, and less jank. And I'd say PM is doing well in that sense.

Why do you guys assume that "Project Melee" or "Melee 2.0" means "Super Spacie Bros" or "8 viable characters"?
@ D e l t a isn't trying to get at that.

Why are some people still complaining about Fox Uair? You can usually SDI uair, and a good amount of characters don't even get hit by it when they DI Up throw. Shield dropping can make it a bit risky coming up with uair onto platforms. Uair is used in such a way that often times when you whiff you completely lose stage control. Uair is solid, but I don't think it's THAT stupid.

 

[Ripple]

this isn't true dude lol.

So when the official pm change list states the SDI multipliers were changed without a damage change, I'm being lied to?

 

[PlateProp]

Not whining, just saying certain things are silly at times. Like Ness' mag pushing you away, while Lucas' mag pulls you in. The entirety of smash could be classified as silly. Dinosaurs, an electric mouse, Mexican plumber with an Italian accent made by Japanese, fighting princesses, etc.

Why aren't we ignoring this guy yet

 

[Frakture]

There are SDI multipliers in PM that modify the distance you move per input. They don't actually modify hitlag.

 

[Jolteon]

So when the official pm change list states the SDI multipliers were changed without a damage change, I'm being lied to?

No, your understanding of SDI/hitlag multipliers is just a little flawed. SDI multipliers increase your resultant distance per SDI input, and hitlag multipliers modify hitlag. The hitlag formula itself, which includes a move's damage, remains exactly the same as it is in Melee. Hence, increasing damage will increase a move's hitlag, unless it has a hitlag multiplier of 0x, and allow more SDI inputs.

 

[D e l t a]

>tier list speculation
>complaints about everything

I'm just going with the flow here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DrinkingFood]

Complain about fox or get out
Or complain about ROB and lunchables will like you
Or complain about Roy and Umbreon will agree and tell you you're wrong on the why but not the what
Or complain about how bad Bowser is and _Odds will like you
Or ask SpiderMad what early aerials to film with your fedora camera sorry nvm not the social thread

 

[hype machine]

Where is pikachu in the tier list?

 

[Bleck]

This game is still called PROJECT MELEE

I'm pretty sure the PMDT has said multiple times that the 'M' doesn't stand for 'Melee', so I can't really take the rest of your post seriously after that

 

[Frost | Odds]

Or complain about how bad Bowser is and _Odds will like you

Not quite. There are legitimate complaints to be made, but I actually get pretty annoyed at poorly-informed whining about the character. Complaints that he's slow, has no combos, can't win [x matchup that's actually relatively fine], and so forth are just pretty silly.

I think he's kinda poorly designed right now (ie. way too centered around dash attack, has 2 effectively-useless smashes, hard countered by purple button) and extremely bad in some matchups, but he also has a lot of tools that pretty much nobody is really using properly.

I'd humiliate myself in any number of ways for the chance to help redesign Bowser in some aspects, but ultimately he could be much worse -- and was much worse in 3.0. That he has the ability to win every matchup, or nearly every matchup in 3.5 is a massive step in the right direction.

Simply calling Bowser 'bad' and leaving it at that would be powerfully short sighted. He's deeply flawed atm, but despite that manages to be damn playable and extremely fun.