Tier List Speculation

[supascoot]

Can I get thoughts from someone on why Wario isn't at least high tier? Seems like the shoulder/bite DI mixup, along with the aerial mobility and grab setups into waft make him a formidable character, and it feels like most of the characters he loses to are in the top tier area.

(Full disclosure, it may just be cuz I blow against Wario)

Wario isn't high tier because he has bad MU's with a lot of the other high tier candidates. Disjoints destroy him, projectiles smack him up good and one of the most common characters in PM has some dumb bull**** setups on him (Falcon). His worst MU is fox, which is another big death sentence (also bad as fox seems to be winning the most tournies now). Wario still bodies characters around him and below him, but he has too many weaknesses for someone to win big as a solo main.

 

[KhanYe]

I also think Falcon is slept on in PM.

What makes Falcon Wario tough, out of curiosity?

 

[Foo]

I also think Falcon is slept on in PM.

What makes Falcon Wario tough, out of curiosity?

Really? Everyone is putting him in high tier, pretty much exactly where he belongs. Do you really think he belongs in top tier?

Also, I'd imagine wario is a super good combo weight for falcon, and wario has bad answers for falcon's mobility and pressure.

 

[shairn]

[speculation]Wario is floaty so he dies to Falcon's uair, subpar OOS options means Falcon's nair and crossups do wonders on his shield. I imagine Wario having a good time tech chasing Falcon with sideB though.[/speculation]

 

[Scuba Steve]

From what I understand about Wario, he's big on his weave game in a similar way to Jiggs. This means he likes to be in the air. Falcon's hitboxes on moves like his upair and nair are pretty dominant in the air and are capable of beating out a lot of Wario's aerials. Combine this with underwhelming ground movement and a lack of a strong anti-air game from Wario, the neutral is probably in favor of Falcon. Additionally, Wario has to face the full wrath of Falcon's combos because he's a fat floaty.

 

[supascoot]

Everyone here pretty much hit the nail on the head. Wario also gets chaingrabed by falcon and I'm fairly sure that at some %s its impossible to DI out of knee on upthrow. It isn't all bad, as wario players are getting better at getting more off of his throws (mostly upthrow), much like how a falcon can techchase or go for aerials with his throws. Falcon is a pretty good weight for followups, however it comes with the cost of taking longer for bair to kill. He also bodies falcon offstage and destroys falcons recovery.

However, its getting kinda annoying how many "bad" MU's wario has to top tiers, its far more than most other characters have to deal with. Guess it makes up for bodying bowser right?

 

[Agi]

However, its getting kinda annoying how many "bad" MU's wario has to top tiers, its far more than most other characters have to deal with. Guess it makes up for bodying bowser right?

Hey man @ Frost | Odds is right there, he doesn't need any more salt in his wounds

Falcon vs Wario is rough, I'm struggling with a lot in my area. Superior baiting ability, less commitment to his approaches, the ability to just zoom right in to punish with a grab -> UThrow/DThrow DI mixup -> combo starter/knee -> knee through the poking tools Wario has is really tough to deal with. At least his recovery is incredibly gimpable and he's a good combo weight.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So what precisely makes Link unable to [grab Uthrow Utilt Uair Uair shenanigans extend combo with zair or boomerang]/[choke out neutral with flingables until grab is got]/[switch to grab dthrow at higher percents]?

Seems like a reasonable flowcharty swordie plan with projectiles substituted for mobility

Fine ignore me

 

[mimgrim]

Fine ignore me

Because I can just play Toon Link and keep the mobility with my projectiles instead. :L

Yes, I know Link and Tink are different beasts and play differently from each other.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Because I can just play Toon Link and keep the mobility with my projectiles instead. :L

Yes, I know Link and Tink are different beasts and play differently from each other.

In the past version the choice was between mobility and range. I think it still is. Some people say Link has range and *power*, but let's be honest, it's not like anyone in the cast is lacking in terms of strong kill moves (except maybe Diddy, lol. His are quite finicky.)

I feel like Tink is more focused on dancing with you, and teh combos and juggles, while Link is more about choking out your options, covering them when you're at disadvantage with his various flingables, and more guaranteed setups (his Dthrow v/s Tink's DI mixups.) However if his nerfs were over-heavy as some people have argued his is a straight up inferior Tink rather than a different iteration.

Which is annoying because Link has sucked in every Smash and we really don't need to carry on that proud tradition. :/

 

[howbadisbad]

Just fought my first competent Kirby and I have to say some of that stuff is questionable design wise

You mean dash attack?

 

[JayTheUnseen]

You mean dash attack?

That,Forwards Final Cutter, and Brick ( though less so than those 2 )

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That,Forwards Final Cutter, and Brick ( though less so than those 2 )

Dash atk is at least -3 on shield now, if kirby has jumps left after side b, it will always be one and there are ways to combat the brick. Kirby is alright, but nothing to salty about.

 

[Juushichi]

I am a lot more worried about Kirby's ridiculously good dthrow than like... his Stone down b.

Cutter dash is still a lil silly tho.

 

[GabPR]

Wario isn't high tier because he has bad MU's with a lot of the other high tier candidates. Disjoints destroy him, projectiles smack him up good and one of the most common characters in PM has some dumb bull**** setups on him (Falcon). His worst MU is fox, which is another big death sentence (also bad as fox seems to be winning the most tournies now). Wario still bodies characters around him and below him, but he has too many weaknesses for someone to win big as a solo main.

Doesnt wario edgeguard him for free though? Go out nair and call it a day? And also, wario has many tools to get him off stage and combo him (not a wario main, but I was curious about this)

 

[Foo]

Doesnt wario edgeguard him for free though? Go out nair and call it a day? And also, wario has many tools to get him off stage and combo him (not a wario main, but I was curious about this)

If this were enough to sway a falcon matchup, he'd be bottom tier. Everyone can gimp falcon for free. The hard part is getting him offstage and not getting zero to deathed before you do.

Dash atk is at least -3 on shield now, if kirby has jumps left after side b, it will always be one and there are ways to combat the brick. Kirby is alright, but nothing to salty about.

-3 is pretty silly for a dash attack, especially since it auto crosses up shield so it doesn't even matter. Balanced doesn't equal good design anyway. No one is saying kirby is OP (at least I hope not), kirby just has some.... "questionable" design choices, as was stated earlier.

 

[howbadisbad]

Finally its time to unleash my tierlist on the world

Spoiler: Legitimate Characters

Spoiler: Janky Gimmick Characters

Spoiler: Disrespect Characters

 

[GP&B]

Finally its time to unleash my tierlist on the world

Spoiler: Legitimate Characters

Spoiler: Janky Gimmick Characters

Spoiler: Disrespect Characters

 

[Strong Badam]

Doesnt wario edgeguard him for free though? Go out nair and call it a day? And also, wario has many tools to get him off stage and combo him (not a wario main, but I was curious about this)

nope. lose neutral forever, can't spam weave because dashing sh nair/uair catches literally all of your drift patterns at relevant ranges so you can't jump, grounded neutral game is clearly worse than falcon's. he edgeguards wario super well too. i hate the MU so much lol. i'd rather fight a falco than falcon with wario.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I'd rather fight just about anyone other than Falcon.
Too bad everyone seems to love playing him.

 

[didds]

The squirtle falcon match up is pretty stupid, neither side enjoys that ****

 

[Frost | Odds]

i'd rather fight a falco than falcon with wario pretty much anyone.

FTFY, strong bad pls

Falco is still pretty degenerate, but it seems like there's nobody who plays the character who's willing to learn his PM-specific quirks in order to capitalize on what he's really capable of. B-reversed lasers are the truth.

 

[The Baron]

The squirtle falcon match up is pretty stupid, neither side enjoys that ****

I hate that matchup because that tiny THING is so damn small. Can we make him Bowser size plz PMDT. I just want to grab him and then knee him in his dumb face. Is that so much to ask PMDT.

 

[steelguttey]

i mean when squirtle grabs falcon

oh boy does it get fun

 

[didds]

i mean when squirtle grabs falcon

oh boy does it get fun

they tech chase eachother equally hard

 

[steelguttey]

yea just thinking of cfalc tech chases on squirt justm akes me want to throw my controller

 

[didds]

he can literally cover every option with raptor boost lol, but it's alright since squirtle can pretty much tech chase on reaction and squirtle can just destroy falcon off stage

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What's the point of even saying someone can destroy falcon off stage? Even olimar can do that, and he is one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

So what precisely makes Link unable to [grab Uthrow Utilt Uair Uair shenanigans extend combo with zair or boomerang]/[choke out neutral with flingables until grab is got]/[switch to grab dthrow at higher percents]?

Seems like a reasonable flowcharty swordie plan with projectiles substituted for mobility

http://smashboards.com/threads/3-5-link-discussion.377822/

 

[didds]

What's the point of even saying someone can destroy falcon off stage? Even olimar can do that, and he is one of the worst characters in the game.

Everyone beats the dude off stage, I just wanted to emphasize that no amount of mixup should save falcon from squirtle off stage. He can mix his way onto stage against certain characters still, so he doesn't always get "destroyed".

I agree that he sucks off stage against pretty much everyone.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Idk I think strong bad is a little overly salty about the falcon matchup. It's not nearly as bad as some of his other ones, and I actually like it quite a bit. I go pretty even with Iori pretty much every time, so he knows the matchup by this point.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I know of at least one Bowser player who switches to Wario against Falcon, so it's possible. Wario is in most respects a better Jigglypuff, and she supposedly has a decent matchup against CF.

It's a shame that he's so polarizing. I get the feeling that anything that even remotely smells like a nerf to CF would be met with even more rabid hatred than similar changes to the spacies. :<

 

[JOE!]

Nerf X on falcon, but let taunting pre-charge the falcon punch

 

[MLGF]

Marth, Falcon, and arguably Sheik and Falco, are in a position where they have some slightly polarizing tools but since their kit is not so controlling or powerful that if they were to receive nerfs there would likely receive a lot of backlash.
Fox is in a position where the PMDT has slowly done some elaborate ploy to make his tools disliked, so people were more advocate of nerfing him.

 

[GabPR]

How is pit in your guys opinions?

 

[MLGF]

May have been a bit overnerfed...

 

[GabPR]

May have been a bit overnerfed...

Why, what does he lack? Was he not given new tools for compensate?

 

[didds]

he seems nice and easy to knock around without having to worry too much about getting knocked around yourself

 

[GabPR]

he seems nice and easy to knock around without having to worry too much about getting knocked around yourself

That does not really explain much.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Dthrow no longer a gg move
ayy