Tier List Speculation

[didds]

That does not really explain much.

Yea, he pretty much lost dthrow to free whatever, and instead received a tech chase off of it instead.

Most moves kill later, general knockback reduction

his up b kill off the top is slightly less effective due to it losing some height and horizontal mobility, in addition to pit's generally reduced mobility because of how his side b works (expends all but 1 jump, can't be reused whether started on the ground or in the air, less speed).

Which means he can't go as stupidly deep for kills anymore and loses a lot of his gimp potential.

and other stuff, I don't know that much about Pit. I don't think he's actually that bad off, he still has great tools. He just has to think a little more. I don't even know a Pit main right now either, so maybe that's why he seems to be bad to people, it's hard to think someone is good when nobody is having success with a character.

 

[MLGF]

That's actually... pretty accurate. I have not seen a Pit in forever.
I'm sure he still has potential, but if every Pit main dropped him something must have bit hard. Even the most salty Sonic players still go Sanic.

 

[GabPR]

That's actually... pretty accurate. I have not seen a Pit in forever.
I'm sure he still has potential, but if every Pit main dropped him something must have bit hard. Even the most salty Sonic players still go Sanic.

Where Wizzy at?

 

[didds]

That's actually... pretty accurate. I have not seen a Pit in forever.
I'm sure he still has potential, but if every Pit main dropped him something must have bit hard. Even the most salty Sonic players still go Sanic.

it's magic what a little reading of a change log can do for a guy

 

[MLGF]

I read the patch notes, and they do look pretty reasonable IMO, but I don't play Pit so I can't be a final say on the subject. Considering the response however, it looks pretty harsh to Pit players.

 

[steelguttey]

pit has dumb lag on everything and it makes him feel real clunky to play. he was op before, but also real smooth.

 

[GabPR]

pit has dumb lag on everything and it makes him feel real clunky to play. he was op before, but also real smooth.

what about his new fsmash? It seems it has really nice setups with the first hit, it looks like it can combo into up smash, a regrab, the second hit of smash, and even itself. Mind you im not entirely sure of the di factor on it, but it looks really promising. And his nair can combo into things pretty good too.

 

[didds]

what about his new fsmash? It seems it has really nice setups with the first hit, it looks like it can combo into up smash, a regrab, the second hit of smash, and even itself. Mind you im not entirely sure of the di factor on it, but it looks really promising. And his nair can combo into things pretty good too.

Taken from PM home page


-Forward Smash
--Animation updated!
--Fsmash 1
---Damage reduced, 7/9 -> 4/6.
---Trajectory tweaked. 97/75/60/60 -> 100/95/75/75.
---Active frames increased, frames 5-7 -> 5-10.
---Window to activate Fsmash 2 shortened by two frames. IASA moved up, frame 29 -> 26.
--Fsmash 2
---Damage increased, 12/10 -> 15/12. Knockback compensated.
---Endlag increased by 5 frames.

 

[GabPR]

The change seems interesting enough, people should experiment with it.

 

[Player -0]

The new F-Smash animation (Smash 4 why) makes me hate it too much to ever feel like using it. Also Pit's Side B nerf so you only have 1 jump effectively nerfed the jump height out of it too (because his last jump sucks, was the last jump like that in 3.02?)

@Hylian I feel like the boomerang angles were changed for Link, were they? And if so where was it stated on the change log?

 

[Strong Badam]

FTFY, strong bad pls

no, i prefer the g&w vs falcon matchup over any of my characters vs falco

 

[SpiderMad]

You can have potentially 3 or so frames longer air time than Melee, and can use specials and AD through IASA now.

Any of his SH Bair to (Fair/Uair/Dair/WL/Side-b, all weren't possible in Melee) has not been used by any Marth I've seen yet.

That only takes into account whats in changelogs. PM's moves operate differently (dair especially) in the PM physics system for whatever reason. Certain ways characters bounce from a dair or react when grounded at low percents does not resemble melee, in a way that benefits Marth.

Nobody has anywhere to go with this unless you do actual testing for an example.

All the stuff I listed I have never seen mentioned, let alone in change logs. I've seen a PMBR state you can use AD through IASA now from Brawl.. but apparently didn't hear Specials couldn't either in Melee and now can. Apparently people don't know this, and it's a bigger game difference than "being able to DACUS now": especially for Marth. And generally I discovered this stuff in-game long before I got answers and realizations.

Spoiler

Things you couldn't do in Melee with Marth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gyIS-HdUgw Lot of stuff (but missing SH Bair Dair?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1J176yjTN8#t=90 Bair Fair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1J176yjTN8#t=54 Bair Fair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9EllNfEZ-8#t=867 Bair Uair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=70 Marth Section

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGGHCzl_RMM#t=201 Early realizations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0sqGLVvFEI#t=120
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=verC4r-bmkE

Let's go over the general list of things that don't exist in Melee but do in PM for just Marth:
SH Fair Special
SH Bair Special
SH Fair WL sooner by 3 frames
SH Bair WL existent (and sooner by 4 frames)
This also applies to just any general air use; now being able to use Special/AD sooner for recovery and such from what is usually around 4 frames or so of IASA on most Aerials before they reach the actual animation end.

What can you do after SH Bair in Melee? ... DJ.. that's it. In PM:
All aerials/specials, except Nair. [Again see the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=70
And lots of this is hard to do beyond being unknown: even doing something like SH Bair Dair or SH Bair Fair three times in a row I've tested people/you all on and the failure in results is devastating. Let alone being good enough at them to utilize/risk going for in-game; which is why 1 frame of buffer would loosen them to be more usable. Though I haven't ruled out them being not consistently attainable just yet, let alone the rational whether you want them to be. ]

You also can't even b-turnaround Down-bs in Melee: and can in PM (as well as then b-reverse them too). And people don't really know the implications of the physics delay.

NZA are you able to record yourself? Set up DK/Bowser with uncontrolled port, and turn DMG ratio on .5 and see if you can do SH Bair Dair 3 times in a row on him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=258

 

[Frost | Odds]

no, i prefer the g&w vs falcon matchup over any of my characters vs falco

10/10 Darkrains approve of this post

 

[The_NZA]

Nobody has anywhere to go with this unless you do actual testing for an example.

All the stuff I listed I have never seen mentioned, let alone in change logs. I've seen a PMBR state you can use AD through IASA now from Brawl.. but apparently didn't hear Specials couldn't either in Melee and now can. Apparently people don't know this, and it's a bigger game difference than "being able to DACUS now": especially for Marth. And generally I discovered this stuff in-game long before I got answers and realizations.

Spoiler

Things you couldn't do in Melee with Marth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gyIS-HdUgw Lot of stuff (but missing SH Bair Dair?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1J176yjTN8#t=90 Bair Fair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1J176yjTN8#t=54 Bair Fair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9EllNfEZ-8#t=867 Bair Uair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=70 Marth Section

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGGHCzl_RMM#t=201 Early realizations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0sqGLVvFEI#t=120
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=verC4r-bmkE

Let's go over the general list of things that don't exist in Melee but do in PM for just Marth:
SH Fair Special
SH Bair Special
SH Fair WL sooner by 3 frames
SH Bair WL existent (and sooner by 4 frames)
This also applies to just any general air use; now being able to use Special/AD sooner for recovery and such from what is usually around 4 frames or so of IASA on most Aerials before they reach the actual animation end.

What can you do after SH Bair in Melee? ... DJ.. that's it. In PM:
All aerials/specials, except Nair. [Again see the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=70
And lots of this is hard to do beyond being unknown: even doing something like SH Bair Dair or SH Bair Fair three times in a row I've tested people/you all on and the failure in results is devastating. Let alone being good enough at them to utilize/risk going for in-game; which is why 1 frame of buffer would loosen them to be more usable. Though I haven't ruled out them being not consistently attainable just yet, let alone the rational whether you want them to be. ]

You also can't even b-turnaround Down-bs in Melee: and can in PM (as well as then b-reverse them too). And people don't really know the implications of the physics delay.

NZA are you able to record yourself? Set up DK/Bowser with uncontrolled port, and turn DMG ratio on .5 and see if you can do SH Bair Dair 3 times in a row on him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=258

I'm genuinely not that invested in talking about Tiers in the way this discussion is being carried out, so unfortunatley, I won't be testing anything. However, I felt it worth mentioning that the best Marth player in PM who actually puts time into the game feels extremely strongly that PM Marth is different from Melee Marth (especially in his punish game) in ways that I've openly been told is untrue by some PMDT members, and I tend to side with Sora. I hate debates that are built on a foundation of theory that have no actual experience to back them up (Since the changelog says PM marth is no different, he's obvoiusly mid tier. Trust me guys, I know it to be true because thats what it says on paper).

Theory crafting is a rich part of the community and its cool we have these discussions, but people have a way in this thread of trying to shove their ideas of the entire game down everyones throat and no one wants to JUST talk about the matchups they know or the characters they understand. And therefore, I find this thread overall very uninformative and largely not useful for the community.

For example, what does a Tier list serve to do, functionally in this community? Is it a commentary on how well a character does in the end game of the metagame or is it a statement of a current characters strength? Most people say its the former, but that's ******** since the end game of the metagame won't be reached before 4.0 comes out and we are back to square one. If its a commentary on the strength of characters given the current landscape, tehn I think silly how much of this community severely overrates the importance of how well your character does against the top 2 characters v. how well your character does against the other 39. In a game where regions are mostly independent, the nationals are fewer and far between, and the metagame acceleration to "all lucas/pit/diddy/snake" isn't happening as quickly, whats the point of stipulating that your character isn't strong because he doesn't have a 50-50 with Fox?

I just find the whole thread so silly because its operating on "well, I think these 5 characters are the best, so how good is everyone at dealing with these 5 characters. Lets put them on the tier list" when even Melee has proven that the top 8 won't be dictated on how good everyone handles 1 character, but is instead built on the foundation of how well everyone handles the viable cast. The viable cast for PM, for at least the next year, is a LOT bigger than 6 characters, so we should be talking about how well your character handles every engagement he/she faces if we want to talk about their relative strengths.

That's why I think Snake, DDD, Wario, and Marth are so strong, and why Ness is really ****ty. Because in spite of how well Snake/DDD/Wario/Marth deal with Fox (which isn't that dismal for any of them), they handle a good portion of the other 40 characters extremely well. Meanwhile, Ness only does extremely well against Fatties or Semi fast fallers, and gets boned by a large portion of the cast. I dunno, this whole thread is super misguided and doesn't really line up with what I think is useful about a Tierlist (which is more of a commentary on who is strong in the current place of the metagame).

 

[Frost | Odds]

Just found some more possibly (but probably not, heh) revolutionary Bowser tech. I don't know if it'll be enough to make a significant difference long term, but it should help.

Basically, only the grounded version of Koopa Klaw (as we all of course know) has armor - which happens to be heavy armor and start on frame 4. Using the aerial klaw and then landing with it actually transitions directly to the equivalent frame of the grounded animation - meaning that if throw an aerial klaw within 3 frames before hitting the ground, you'll start the grounded animation including the armor and the longer range. This gives bowser some sick mixup potential upon landing at medium-to-far spacings from the opponent, on top of that which already exists from wavelands, flame cancel, and simply landing with aerials.

Also, @ The_NZA Salt Mines 3 was hype!

 

[steelguttey]

then fking say what it is

 

[Frost | Odds]

then fking say what it is

Your wish is my command

 

[The_NZA]

Just found some more possibly (but probably not, heh) revolutionary Bowser tech. I don't know if it'll be enough to make a significant difference long term, but it should help.

Basically, only the grounded version of Koopa Klaw (as we all of course know) has armor - which happens to be heavy armor and start on frame 4. Using the aerial klaw and then landing with it actually transitions directly to the equivalent frame of the grounded animation - meaning that if throw an aerial klaw within 3 frames before hitting the ground, you'll start the grounded animation including the armor and the longer range. This gives bowser some sick mixup potential upon landing at medium-to-far spacings from the opponent, on top of that which already exists from wavelands, flame cancel, and simply landing with aerials.

Also, @ The_NZA Salt Mines 3 was hype!

Spread the gospel, man...its hard to get anyone to listen to anything now a days unless its drama or self validation.

Episode 4 will be tonight, and features Messi, Gallo, me, Junebug, and Oracle.

 

[Ripple]

you don't just tell people new tech. you show people, and have them figure it out. like how I get instant grab breaks.

 

[Frost | Odds]

you don't just tell people new tech. you show people, and have them figure it out. like how I get instant grab breaks.

I would, if Alberta ever had goddamn PM events. In 2 weeks we're going to have our first real PM event since 3.5 came out.

 

[zFrost]

make your own events

 

[Frost | Odds]

School johns; but I graduate in April so that'll definitely be the plan afterwards.

 

[steelguttey]

School johns; but I graduate in April so that'll definitely be the plan afterwards.

you dont need to go to a tournament

just show what the tech is lmao

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

you dont need to go to a tournament

just show what the tech is lmao

What if it's a one trick pony

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

I don't know if this is just me, but i'm having some problems against wolf.

Is there something i'm not getting about his matchup or is there some kind of rivalry with them?

Ive been bustimg my ass off trying to juggle into DACUS when he DI out to the side's, but as soon as i miss it he attacks me with this ridiculous dash attack string. No Nair approach to shine, just dash attack. And every time i try to SDI i come up being stuck in a air juggle.


FYI: I think you know who i'm playing with....ok fine, it's G&W

 

[mimgrim]

FYI: I think you know who i'm playing with.

Given your name, I'm gonna guess Meta Knight.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Given your name, I'm gonna guess Meta Knight.

Imao like i would ever play him.
But in all seriousness I'm stuck with this wolf and i need some tips on him.

 

[Soft Serve]

Just found some more possibly (but probably not, heh) revolutionary Bowser tech. I don't know if it'll be enough to make a significant difference long term, but it should help.

Basically, only the grounded version of Koopa Klaw (as we all of course know) has armor - which happens to be heavy armor and start on frame 4. Using the aerial klaw and then landing with it actually transitions directly to the equivalent frame of the grounded animation - meaning that if throw an aerial klaw within 3 frames before hitting the ground, you'll start the grounded animation including the armor and the longer range. This gives bowser some sick mixup potential upon landing at medium-to-far spacings from the opponent, on top of that which already exists from wavelands, flame cancel, and simply landing with aerials.

Also, @ The_NZA Salt Mines 3 was hype!

so SH Nair>side-b should be a thing?

 

[Frost | Odds]

so SH Nair>side-b should be a thing?

No, SH nair is an L cancel every time. FH nair -> sideB is totally a thing, though, along with FH nair -> flame cancel and FH nair -> waveland.

 

[Jacob29]

so SH Nair>side-b should be a thing?

You think Bowser can SH Nair with time to spare? loooool

 

[Soft Serve]

Meant full hop, idk cant english today.

 

[SSBM_Sora]

You've expounded at length about how Sheik is a completely different character from her Melee iteration, and needs to be played very differently. It shouldn't be that much of a stretch to believe that PM marth is very different from Melee marth. You can play both characters as if you were playing Melee, but that doesn't mean you should.

agree

 

[Ripple]

@Umbreon

this is who I think DDD loses to to actually answer your question you asked me last week




all others are even or DDD wins


others can feel free to comment

 

[Deleted member]

why gaw and kirby? i can see the rest, just curious though.

 

[Paradoxium]

@Umbreon

this is who I think DDD loses to to actually answer your question you asked me last week




all others are even or DDD wins


others can feel free to comment

I agree with pretty much all this, except for . From your experience what do you think makes makes DDD lose the match up? (**** I put win by accident)

Also, what are your thoughts on and vs DDD? I feel like Squirtle shares a lot of similarities with the characters you listed. And with Ic's from what I've seen they can get in easily on DDD and beat his grab game while at the same time body him with their grab game.

 

[Ripple]

Kirby is like a jigglypuff that can actually get down from the air because stone, and if stone hits my shield its hard to punish. He also has a much more rewarding grab game with d-throw tech chase kirby.

I pretty much have to play in the air more than usual but if I swing and miss he can weave in and get me.

G&W just gets so much off of one hit in neutral its kinda crazy. I definitely beat him in neutral a majority of the time but when he wins he definitely gets like 50% ending it with nair or side-b until death %

squirtle is super annoying because of his movement but he definitely doesn't get the combos like luigi does. Squirtle is also less scary to edgeguard and dies much faster.

ICs don't win simply because I can platform camp them like its brawl and inahle splits them up EXTREMELY well

 

[Giygacoal]

Could someone please give the basic explanation for why Roy is one of the strongest characters in the game right now, and apparently even better than Marth? I've been mostly out of the loop lately.

 

[Paradoxium]

k I agree but I'm still a bit iffy on squirtle. Can't he get in super easy with his movement and just go nuts with his cross ups and double fair pressure? I can see DDD winning but I feel like that match up is probably close.

 

[Ogopogo]

@Umbreon

this is who I think DDD loses to to actually answer your question you asked me last week




all others are even or DDD wins


others can feel free to comment

Curious, why do you think Luigi does well vs D3? Haven't seen that matchup before, and haven't gotten around to playing KOKingpin.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Could someone please give the basic explanation for why Roy is one of the strongest characters in the game right now, and apparently even better than Marth? I've been mostly out of the loop lately.

because:

I've said this so many times, but I'm down to say it again

Marth suffers significantly more from his marth syndrome in this game due to new heavies/floaties, and bigger stages. Roy on the other hand can convert more off of non-grab conversions due to his AMAZING Down Tilt. It combos into itself, grabs, kill moves, and combos, and other things like his ridiculously low KBG u air means he can combo forever. Also having a kill aerial means he consistently kills at 120%-130%.