Tier List Speculation

[Apollo Ali]

@Umbreon

this is who I think DDD loses to to actually answer your question you asked me last week




all others are even or DDD wins


others can feel free to comment

I think DDD beats Dorf, idk about Lucas or Kirby and I'm confused on Weegee, but otherwise I agree. I need more Squirtle experience to decide whether I think its a 45/55 but IDK.

I also think he loses to Link. We've had this convo before and your advice against Link was to just take to the sky, but Link can just throw bombs or U Air! His punish and runaway game against DDD is very very good, ugh.

EDIT:
ALSO: playing against Frozen I think the matchup against Mewtwo is volatile as hell but actually may not be THAT bad??? Like I could see it being 45-55 for DDD.

 

[zFrost]

hard countered by purple button.

my purple button is set to attack o,o"

 

[D e l t a]

Where is pikachu in the tier list?

With QAC being restricted to the first dash, I feel he dropped a few spots. Wasn't a major part of his gameplay, but significantly hinders movement and approaches ;/

 

[Strong Badam]

guys topic change does the M even stand for anything anymore or is it just a letter

never stood for melee, was always just an M. source: shanus named the project and says this.

 

[D e l t a]

never stood for melee, was always just an M. source: shanus named the project and says this.

Why M if not for Melee?

 

[Giygacoal]

Why M if not for Melee?

I always interpreted it as the M is derived from/a reference to Melee, but the name of the game isn't "Project Melee."

 

[Narpas_sword]

Why M if not for Melee?

Because "Project Make Falcos' Shine work like it did in melee" is too damn long to say in conversation son.

 

[Ripple]

nice RvB reference in there

 

[The Baron]

So how does everyone feel about wolf compared to the other 2 spacies.

 

[mimgrim]

So how does everyone feel about wolf compared to the other 2 spacies.

Fox > Wolf >> Falco.

Wolf is probably the second best character in the game after Fox.

 

[LittleFoxBot]

Why did they have to remove the second hit on Bowser's dash attack? That ish was gawdlike.

 

[The Baron]

Fox > Wolf >> Falco.

Wolf is probably the second best character in the game after Fox.

Is falco really that bad compared to wolf? Figured that with the trouble falco's laser can give people combined with intense pillaring action (wow that sounds dirty, gonna have to use that more) and kill potential between bair, f-smash and dair, falco would be right behind wolf as far as power level goes though I might be thinking way to linearly.

 

[mimgrim]

Is falco really that bad compared to wolf? Figured that with the trouble falco's laser can give people combined with intense pillaring action (wow that sounds dirty, gonna have to use that more) and kill potential between bair, f-smash and dair, falco would be right behind wolf as far as power level goes though I might be thinking way to linearly.

Falco is still high-up but he suffers more notably from the higher amount of floaties and general new environment and is held back more by his weaknesses that there is a decent gap between him and Fox/Wolf now. He still has stupid design though.

 

[The Baron]

Falco is still high-up but he suffers more notably from the higher amount of floaties and general new environment and is held back more by his weaknesses that there is a decent gap between him and Fox/Wolf now. He still has stupid design though.

Makes sense. Given this, would you change anything to their designs, mostly wolf. I appreciate the fact that wolf's shine can be crouch canceled, but could you do the same thing to fox and falco without hurting them overly much. Also how would crouch canceling work with foxes shine in particular since it sends at a straight angle downward I think but feel free to correct me.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why did they have to remove the second hit on Bowser's dash attack? That ish was gawdlike.

It was stupid. It encouraged Bowser players to dash attack at shields, which should never be a good option. This change was doubly necessary because of the other changes to dash attack - the unclankability and the extra range. Bowser is already far too centralized around his dash attack, making him even moreso would be criminal.

 

[mimgrim]

Makes sense. Given this, would you change anything to their designs, mostly wolf. I appreciate the fact that wolf's shine can be crouch canceled, but could you do the same thing to fox and falco without hurting them overly much. Also how would crouch canceling work with foxes shine in particular since it sends at a straight angle downward I think but feel free to correct me.

If I absolutely had to leave the whole JCable crap in there, I would make Shine come out later (like Ness Magnet late). But I would rather just give them Brawl Shines and call it a day. But I'm someone who doesn't care about Melee really, so I'm not the best to ask about those changes. :L

 

[hype machine]

If I absolutely had to leave the whole JCable crap in there, I would make Shine come out later (like Ness Magnet late). But I would rather just give them Brawl Shines and call it a day. But I'm someone who doesn't care about Melee really, so I'm not the best to ask about those changes. :L

There would be a huge outcry if they replace the shines with brawl shines

 

[mimgrim]

There would be a huge outcry if they replace the shines with brawl shines

And I really wouldn't care.

 

[The_NZA]

agree

Sora, want to go in depth about specific things you've noticed are different? Where do you think Marth is on the tier list?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

And I really wouldn't care.

I understand this and that's fine, but why in the **** would you make any suggestions that wouldn't gel with the community at large? There's controversial suggestions and there's asinine ones. Your opinion weighs no more than most.

 

[Bleck]

what the community thinks is a good idea is not really relevant to what is and is not actually a good idea

 

[mimgrim]

Your opinion weighs no more than most.

I never said they did?

 

[D e l t a]

Where do you think Marth is on the tier list?

Marth beats out a number of characters bc of his range. People think he's super hindered now because of stage size, but his kill power is still proportional to Melee and his recovery is the same. If anything, Marth lost a disadvantage with the removal of light shields. MU's like vs Fox / Falco are actually easier bc their kill moves were downgraded. Vs top tiers like Diddy / Lucas, sword out-prioritizes their moves. Fair / Jab / Ftilt beats out banana & monkey flip as well as all of Lucas' approaches except Dash atk, which isn't that great to use all the time in the first place, unless Marth is spaced out, in which case Fair/Jab/Ftilt would beat Dash atk. Furthermore, his combo game is still ridiculously strong against most of the fast fallers and heavy chars in the game.

On the tier list, he's a strong high tier, probably around the same area he was in Melee. Not much changed to his character, just the MU's he has to deal with and the available stages.

 

[zFrost]

i wouldnt place diddy or lucas as high tiers anymore

 

[Soft Serve]

So how does everyone feel about wolf compared to the other 2 spacies.

Fox=Wolf >>Falco.

Fox and Wolf both win most of the MUs in the game, but they have different spreads because they play neutral differently. Fox threatens more space immediately, Wolf puts out a low commitment projectile thats also a built in movement option. Wolf coverts much harder off everything, Fox gets more conversions.

Falco is still a great character, but is toned down to the point where the rest of the cast can deal with him reliably. There are more options to lasers (lower crouches, More characters than can take to the air to ignore it, or jump over and rush him down while falco tries to shoot), and more outs to his approach game and Dair on shield.

 

[D e l t a]

Lucas & Diddy are no longer as good as they were, but a great set of characters nonetheless. Banana is still an amazing projectile as is PKF. They have long, powerful combos and strong finishers.

Fox beats out floaties with upsmash that kills from 70-90 reliably. Nair -> upsmash works as well as Uthrow Uair around 60-80%. Falco is really discredited bc his shine, Utilt, and Dtilt are great kill moves on floaties
If anything, Wolf has the harder time against floaties. He only does good against the other two space animals and heavies

 

[Boiko]

If anything, Wolf has the harder time against floaties. He only does good against the other two space animals and heavies

There isn't a match up in the game that Wolf can't handle.

 

[Strong Badam]

wolf actually auto-loses to fox lmao but does fine vs just about any other character imo

 

[Sethlon]

Marth beats out a number of characters bc of his range. People think he's super hindered now because of stage size, but his kill power is still proportional to Melee and his recovery is the same. If anything, Marth lost a disadvantage with the removal of light shields. MU's like vs Fox / Falco are actually easier bc their kill moves were downgraded. Vs top tiers like Diddy / Lucas, sword out-prioritizes their moves. Fair / Jab / Ftilt beats out banana & monkey flip as well as all of Lucas' approaches except Dash atk, which isn't that great to use all the time in the first place, unless Marth is spaced out, in which case Fair/Jab/Ftilt would beat Dash atk. Furthermore, his combo game is still ridiculously strong against most of the fast fallers and heavy chars in the game.

On the tier list, he's a strong high tier, probably around the same area he was in Melee. Not much changed to his character, just the MU's he has to deal with and the available stages.

While there isn't light shielding as far as shield size is concerned, the Marth killer actually is in the game now (since 3.5 shield mechanics were updated, IIRC). Even without that, I wouldn't really push his recovery as an overall plus for him...there are plenty of characters with better recoveries in PM, he's around the middle line at best IMO.

Marth does do pretty well against the current top/high tiers, so he might be placed pretty high because of that alone. He has a lot of matchups that are likely much worse than the ones he had to deal with in Melee, though...a lot of random characters like Yoshi who gave him trouble in Melee are much stronger and are a thing you might see in tournament now, outside of the singular Amsa. I imagine the fat characters are problematic for Marth as well, though Marth might have a leg up over Roy on that one, with actually being able to kill them with spikes.

 

[MLGF]

I feel as if DK just beats the swordies (or at least goes even), but I don't know how right I am outside of personal experience.
Anyone else able to vouch for this?

 

[PootisKonga]

As a former DK main, I think he only beats them in range but lacks the disjoint to do too much, so I guess even sounds about right

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

As a former DK main, I think he only beats them in range but lacks the disjoint to do too much, so I guess even sounds about right

You like big and slow huh

 

[PootisKonga]

You like big and slow huh

DK is faster than Pikachu minus QA though

But yes, I like big, powerful punishers

 

[Frost | Odds]

I imagine the fat characters are problematic for Marth as well, though Marth might have a leg up over Roy on that one, with actually being able to kill them with spikes.

Marth crushes Bowser, loses to D3, goes roughly even with Zard. Opinions vary pretty wildly on the Ganon matchup. Dunno about the others.

 

[zFrost]

as far as biggish chars go i only like ganon and ike @.@

 

[PlateProp]

DK is faster than Pikachu minus QA though

But yes, I like big, powerful punishers

You should be glad this isint the social thread

 

[The Baron]

Marth crushes Bowser, loses to D3, goes roughly even with Zard. Opinions vary pretty wildly on the Ganon matchup. Dunno about the others.

Marth hates Ganon and Ganon hates Marth. Literally becomes a game of who gets who offstage first and its frustrating, and thus I call it even, maybe slightly in marths favor because all of marths attacks can beat out Ganon's if spaced properly but Ganon can bully Marth easily, especially on smaller stages. I think marth beats DK though and while I think Marth is slightly favored in the charizard matchup, I definitely agree with D3 and Bowser.

 

[Frost | Odds]

and while I think Marth is slightly favored in the charizard matchup

So do I -- Hatz just gives me grief for that opinion.

 

[howbadisbad]

So why exactly did people stop thinking mk is top10?

 

[Player -0]

Because they don't know he can moon walk/teleport like a boss. RIP moonwalk in 3.6/next update.