Probably just bad Squirtle players then. I literally just crouch the up b and read the drift to ledge or shield it and punish. Never had any issues. But like I said, Idk too much about the character.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Fortress
Smash Master
Who really does?
howbadisbad
Smash Apprentice
So when I play card games like Magic I always play heavy control decks like esper control.
But when I play fighting games like smash, I play super wombo combo yolo jank degeneracy like G&W.
But when I play fighting games like smash, I play super wombo combo yolo jank degeneracy like G&W.
Help me
I didn't choose the jank life
The jank life chose me
The jank life chose me
So the squirtle players you are playing don't know how to sweepspot? Squirtle's up-b has a decently large and disjointed ending hitbox, which IIRC still hits above the stage if he sweetspots.
I Think ness has an easy time edge guarding squirtle, because his up-b has no hitboxes on squirtle so a well placed dair/nair/bair from above will jump gimp him.
Also kinda nitpicking, but on your tier list for Diddy you said he had stage control + Consistant Kill setups. I agree with everything you said before that was good about Diddy, but these two aren't super accurate. He threatens a lot of space horizontally around him due to glide tossing and his mobility, and can keep control of center stage due to this too, but bananas dont really give him stage control because if they aren't on his body or right under neath him its a liability for him to have them out like that. Also Killing is the only thing he is bad at. Having to catch bad DI on throws and read tech chase options off trips to get any kills aren't really consistant kill options, Diddy has marth syndrome worse than marth does at times, because unless Diddy catches you with horrible DI you wont die to him before 120-130. I do support your placement of him lol.
Squirtle is really good. Not broken, but silly good. That mobility+combo game + ability to duck and low profile under a lot of the cast does not make a low tier. I also don't think Pikachu is a low tier either, but just like squirtle, there are zero good pikachu players in PM.
I support this post. All makes sense to me. I guess I felt that if Diddy is using a banana he can more safely control his space on the map, but that doesn't really give him good overall stage control, so it makes sense.
Rizner
Smash Ace
I would probably say her defensive playstyle isn't too great, because she can't keep out a lot of the cast who are used frequently (fox and friends, sheik, most characters with a projectile) and she can only really force the slow characters without projectiles to approach, because faster ones can punish her stuff in mid range, and at far range dins isn't super effective anymore, and other projectiles do more damage and have more going for them to force approaches almost always (maybe not pk fire or ice, but anything past that)
Did Axe and Anther suddenly cease to exist or something
Axe doesn't play Pika in PM anymore, I haven't seen any anther footage at all as of late.
Fortress
Smash Master
I know that Squirtle has tricks on paper, but no good players representing a strong character does not make. That's at least how I see it. Yeah, he's got some cool jank, but I just don't think there are enough people winning/placing in events with the dude to make Squirtle high/high-mid.
Sorry if that sounds ignorant, but that's just how I feel about Squirtle; low-tier until proven otherwise (unless in the past couple of months I've actually missed some Squirtle mains repping in the scene).
Sorry if that sounds ignorant, but that's just how I feel about Squirtle; low-tier until proven otherwise (unless in the past couple of months I've actually missed some Squirtle mains repping in the scene).
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howbadisbad
Smash Apprentice
Axe played Flaco until the nerfs, he plays Marth now.
Aw he totally dropped him?
Anther got 5th at SWEET Prologue, dunno if he's been to anything else lately for PM.
I've seen him play Pikachu in PM before, maybe he didn't use him frequently but definitely did use him.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Axe played Pikachu in PM as a main. I recall ESAM teaching Axe how to b reverse thunder as an edgeguard and an AZ stream recording his reaction when you couldn't QAC2. He still played Falco/Marth, but I am fairly positive he mained the rat...
PlateProp
Smash Master
Anther's too busy being controlled as a puppet by his nazi mods on the ladder
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
holy **** hahahha
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Heil Anther.
JOE!
Smash Hero
So, if you Seismic Toss onto a banana, you still trip. Wtf, Hoo-Ha OP.
Vashimus
Smash Master
I need a gif of this.
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JOE!
Smash Hero
Like, you would think the explosion would still happen but no, Diddy just got grab released and we both paused and just went "WHAT". It's ******** lol
PsionicSabreur
Smash Journeyman
Bananas being half as obnoxious now doesn't change the fact that they're still measurably obnoxious.
It may be a small mercy, but it'd at least be nice if, when dropped after the holder is hit, bananas would lose player ownership (as in nobody can slip on it until someone picks it up).
It may be a small mercy, but it'd at least be nice if, when dropped after the holder is hit, bananas would lose player ownership (as in nobody can slip on it until someone picks it up).
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Psyant
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2014
- Messages
- 155
- NNID
- Psyant
Axe and Esam are some of the best players to touch Smash, and Anther is on par with them in PM too. All 3 of them played Pika in 3.0 (Esam often favoring Samus but he definitely played Pikachu a fair amount) and Pikachu still didn't dominate tournaments or anything, far from it. Most people here seem to think he's in a worse position in 3.5, going by tier lists back then and now.
You can definitely argue Pikachu isn't low tier, but saying he hasn't had good player representation isn't the way to do it. He's had 3 excellent players to push him in PM which is more than most characters can say. He has a good design overall, I think he's just a victim of power creep, especially with so many characters in PM being as fast or faster than him movement wise, which isn't the case in Melee (or any other game).
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GabPR
Smash Lord
I think they meant specifically in 3.5, not 3.0. Havent seen any vids of them in this patch.
Psyant
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2014
- Messages
- 155
- NNID
- Psyant
Yeah I'm aware. I just mean that despite having 3 top players repping him in 3.0, he still wasn't that great, and in 3.5 he's arguably worse off, so it's not unreasonable to say he might be low tier now.
I have seen some 3.5 Anther videos, but they were the kind that float in the abyss of Youtube with 20 views.
Anyway, for what it's worth I personally think he's more lower mid rather than straight out low tier, but my opinion doesn't really mean much, lol. I think more than anything Pikachu could just do with some quality of life fixes. A usable dash attack and maybe slightly better grab range (enough to be able to actually shield grab sometimes) would go a long way in making him more friendly to pick up for newer players imo.
I have seen some 3.5 Anther videos, but they were the kind that float in the abyss of Youtube with 20 views.
Anyway, for what it's worth I personally think he's more lower mid rather than straight out low tier, but my opinion doesn't really mean much, lol. I think more than anything Pikachu could just do with some quality of life fixes. A usable dash attack and maybe slightly better grab range (enough to be able to actually shield grab sometimes) would go a long way in making him more friendly to pick up for newer players imo.
Choice Scarf
Smash Journeyman
I think the best thing Pika could ever get would be a slight amount of disjoint on Nair, but we can save possible tweaks for a more relevant thread (I think I'll make one later today).
It's funny how 2 out of 3 of the best Pika mains drop him in the version focused primarily on fundamentals and had the most potential for high quality meta growth so far because of it. And as they rarely partake in discussion let alone play, the Pika boards are usually in a state of repeating info when people actually post at all. The super high tech floor barrier has always made Pika underused though (except 64 lol), but that's just how Pika is as a low power speed based character. It will take more high caliber players to break through that barrier before anyone expects Pika to rise in the tiers, or more detailed balance tweaks but who knows where that will lead. It's just that no one's going to do that anytime soon as long as people justifiably think Pika is a slightly more survivable Fox with worse options. So Anther is truly the hero we need and don't deserve. In the mean time us Pika mains need to not just git gud but git g0dly.
And to transition back to the rest of the cast, what other characters need similarly high level of play just to be effective? I guess based on previous discussion Bowser and Squirtle are also in this category, as well as spacies (who in this sense are basically a success story of this). Maybe also Lucario and Ice Climbers?
It's funny how 2 out of 3 of the best Pika mains drop him in the version focused primarily on fundamentals and had the most potential for high quality meta growth so far because of it. And as they rarely partake in discussion let alone play, the Pika boards are usually in a state of repeating info when people actually post at all. The super high tech floor barrier has always made Pika underused though (except 64 lol), but that's just how Pika is as a low power speed based character. It will take more high caliber players to break through that barrier before anyone expects Pika to rise in the tiers, or more detailed balance tweaks but who knows where that will lead. It's just that no one's going to do that anytime soon as long as people justifiably think Pika is a slightly more survivable Fox with worse options. So Anther is truly the hero we need and don't deserve. In the mean time us Pika mains need to not just git gud but git g0dly.
And to transition back to the rest of the cast, what other characters need similarly high level of play just to be effective? I guess based on previous discussion Bowser and Squirtle are also in this category, as well as spacies (who in this sense are basically a success story of this). Maybe also Lucario and Ice Climbers?
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Gotta also understand that the 2/3 of the best Pika mains dropped him in PM to go eat in their main games. Axe is the best Pika in Melee and the payoff potential is larger there (also he is cracking into being among the best players in the WORLD in it) and ESAM is the best Pika in the world in Brawl/Smash 4 and well... we know about the latter's growth potential for now lol.
Anther is still strong (top 5 in his state, top 3 arguable if including melee players), but on the whole aside from Lordy and Lain I don't think they're traveling much. If he was able to/wanted to travel, I think you would see more footage.
Anther is still strong (top 5 in his state, top 3 arguable if including melee players), but on the whole aside from Lordy and Lain I don't think they're traveling much. If he was able to/wanted to travel, I think you would see more footage.
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Soupchicken
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
- Messages
- 19
The more I play Puff the more I feel she should not be buffed quite yet for a few reasons. I think her tier-list placing is coming from a lack of Puff mains. If you just pick her up casually, you will get bodied. If you pick her up more seriously you will still get bodied. However, if you play her long enough to perfect her movement and learn her matchups, you'll start to pull things back to even or better.
Though PM's recoveries tend to be trickier to edge-guard than melee's, they are still exploitable. Ganon initially seemed difficult to edge-guard relative to his melee self due to his float and flame choke changes but now I feel just as comfortable bairing him to oblivion as I did in melee. G&W's recovery seemed impossible to deal with initially but I have gotten used to to punishing it fairly consistently (still is ridiculous though). A well timed bair is still probably the best off-stage move in the game. You just have to know exactly where to float to cover their options.
When people think of Puff they probably imagine her floating around throwing out Bairs. What many people don't realize is that Puff is MOST dangerous when crouched on the ground a couple of lengths away from her opponent. Shorthop Bairs, Fairs & Nairs come out fast and are super safe on shield when properly spaced. Most importantly they auto-cancel on short-hop (Fair didn't when shorthopping in melee but does in PM if you throw it out right away)! The auto-cancel gives you so many options to continue with your pressure. A Puff that's crossing you up with aerials is difficult to hit and difficult to punish due to her insane aerial mobility and the quantity of aerials she can throw out. Since Puff is constantly auto-canceling during these mixups, you can quickly grab, use a grounded move or even rest in between aerials making it difficult for your opponent to do anything without getting punished for it.
That being said, newer Puffs are very afraid of going in, and justifiably so. Until your movement is very VERY crisp being close will be a disadvantage simply because you're so damn easy to kill. You must master her surprisingly long perfect wavedash and perfect waveland, especially the latter. Doing so will make take your punish/bait game to another level. You also need to learn when to use her god-tier crouch over shielding (read: most of the time). A whiff over a crouching puff or a CC can often lead to a stock. You need to play more like Mango than vintage HBox in PM to be successful.
Newer Puffs also do not utilize her amazing nair properly. Auto-cancelled nairs are by far the best rest setup in the game and the hardest to master. If you catch someone with a nair at the beginning or end of their jump you will likely get a rest out of it. Better yet, you can predict from the hit whether or not the rest will land, or in other words you can reliably hit confirm into rest from an aerial (yay!!!). If they're on the ground and you catch them with the last active frames of Nair you can also combo into rest but it's a very tight timing. If you catch them at certain percents with Fair (and Bair/Nair but less so) you can knock them down and jab reset into rest. Or you can land next to them after a nair and up-tilt into rest (though I tend not to because up-tilt is slow to come out).
Lastly, the better you know a matchup the tighter your punishes will be. Melee Puffs all know that a whiffed Marth grab leads to a rest. Such punishes exist in nearly every matchup. Did you know if you catch G&W at the top of his up-b you can rest him? Additionally, her CC is BETTER in PM which means more CC rest punishes. I've even CC'd Ganon's down-b into rest and that move flat-out kills Puff at 70%. As the meta develops, Puffs will uncover and begin exploiting these rest opportunities.
There are simply not enough people playing Puff. HBox has shown that she can compete and she can only get better as the meta develops. Maybe minor changes are justified but I think we should wait and see.
Though PM's recoveries tend to be trickier to edge-guard than melee's, they are still exploitable. Ganon initially seemed difficult to edge-guard relative to his melee self due to his float and flame choke changes but now I feel just as comfortable bairing him to oblivion as I did in melee. G&W's recovery seemed impossible to deal with initially but I have gotten used to to punishing it fairly consistently (still is ridiculous though). A well timed bair is still probably the best off-stage move in the game. You just have to know exactly where to float to cover their options.
When people think of Puff they probably imagine her floating around throwing out Bairs. What many people don't realize is that Puff is MOST dangerous when crouched on the ground a couple of lengths away from her opponent. Shorthop Bairs, Fairs & Nairs come out fast and are super safe on shield when properly spaced. Most importantly they auto-cancel on short-hop (Fair didn't when shorthopping in melee but does in PM if you throw it out right away)! The auto-cancel gives you so many options to continue with your pressure. A Puff that's crossing you up with aerials is difficult to hit and difficult to punish due to her insane aerial mobility and the quantity of aerials she can throw out. Since Puff is constantly auto-canceling during these mixups, you can quickly grab, use a grounded move or even rest in between aerials making it difficult for your opponent to do anything without getting punished for it.
That being said, newer Puffs are very afraid of going in, and justifiably so. Until your movement is very VERY crisp being close will be a disadvantage simply because you're so damn easy to kill. You must master her surprisingly long perfect wavedash and perfect waveland, especially the latter. Doing so will make take your punish/bait game to another level. You also need to learn when to use her god-tier crouch over shielding (read: most of the time). A whiff over a crouching puff or a CC can often lead to a stock. You need to play more like Mango than vintage HBox in PM to be successful.
Newer Puffs also do not utilize her amazing nair properly. Auto-cancelled nairs are by far the best rest setup in the game and the hardest to master. If you catch someone with a nair at the beginning or end of their jump you will likely get a rest out of it. Better yet, you can predict from the hit whether or not the rest will land, or in other words you can reliably hit confirm into rest from an aerial (yay!!!). If they're on the ground and you catch them with the last active frames of Nair you can also combo into rest but it's a very tight timing. If you catch them at certain percents with Fair (and Bair/Nair but less so) you can knock them down and jab reset into rest. Or you can land next to them after a nair and up-tilt into rest (though I tend not to because up-tilt is slow to come out).
Lastly, the better you know a matchup the tighter your punishes will be. Melee Puffs all know that a whiffed Marth grab leads to a rest. Such punishes exist in nearly every matchup. Did you know if you catch G&W at the top of his up-b you can rest him? Additionally, her CC is BETTER in PM which means more CC rest punishes. I've even CC'd Ganon's down-b into rest and that move flat-out kills Puff at 70%. As the meta develops, Puffs will uncover and begin exploiting these rest opportunities.
There are simply not enough people playing Puff. HBox has shown that she can compete and she can only get better as the meta develops. Maybe minor changes are justified but I think we should wait and see.
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PlateProp
Smash Master
Anther beat Axe in pika dittos in pm
Heil Anther
Heil Anther
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Soulpech already been doing a lot of that stuff tho, man.
Beat Anther 3-0 in a set, beat Lordy, does well in Columbus basically losing only to Fizzle, Hanky, Drephen. I agree though, Puff is unexplored and does pretty well against most of the cast already. Sleeping on the character for real.
Beat Anther 3-0 in a set, beat Lordy, does well in Columbus basically losing only to Fizzle, Hanky, Drephen. I agree though, Puff is unexplored and does pretty well against most of the cast already. Sleeping on the character for real.
D
Deleted member
Guest
pikachu is fine
whens tagxy lmao
whens tagxy lmao
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
D
Deleted member
Guest
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Quoting this just in case people think link isn't garbage, because he pretty much is.
Also what's with all these people sleeping on peach? I keep seeing it, and it doesn't make sense to me.
Foo
Smash Lord
idk man I thought something similar a little bit ago. I thought to myself "Man, x is getting slept on" to myself where x could be
peach, ganon, dk, ivy, zard, mk, jiggles, luigi etc etc. Then I realized, that if I moved all those characters up at all, it would displace characters I thought were better way too much. I think the problem is that when you see a character in lower mid, you instantly think "bad" but that's not really how it works. Pretty much everyone outside of low tier can compete with everyone outside of top tier barring some matchup specific problems.
On a side note, I'm starting to think roy is a tad overrated. I don't really feel he belongs in top tier, (high tier fo' sho' tho')
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
To an extent I can see that, but imo when it comes to peach, people have consistently put her in lower mid or low tier, and it makes zero sense. Take a look at Boiko's tier list for an example.
First of all, what's ike doing in marth's place? Switch them real quick and take a look at the tail end of upper mid. Zelda doesn't belong a tier above peach at the very least. I've heard that people are starting to put the work in with zelda, but that doesn't beat a character like peach, who was a high tier in melee and has only gotten buffs. I have some other problems with this list, but those two strike me as the most obvious.Top Tier:
High Tier:
Upper Mid:
Lower Mid:
Low:
Doesn't Work:
Also Boiko is entitled to his opinion, but I don't think he's right lol, which is the point of this thread.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
I'm still unconvinced either way on Link. The jumpsquat buff was pretty goddamn significant, his zair is still silly, and he's still got quite a few solid tools. I'd definitely agree that he's mediocre as hell, but 'garbage' might be an overstatement. He seems to lose most of his matchups, but at least he's not awfully polarized - there don't seem to be a lot of matchups that are totally unrealistic (65-35 or worse, imo) to consistently win.
As for Peach, she's obviously better in a vacuum, and 3.5 for sure helped her a whole lot - but there's still an awful lot of characters who can effectively outcamp her (see: Link, Tink, etc) or outspace her with aerials/in general (puff, Ivy, mewtwo, others including possibly zelda)
It's not that she's a terrible character or anything, she's just a character that thrives on baits and punishes and trades -- much like other such characters (like Bowser), the meta is not kind to her when her opponent is not forced to engage her at her preferred (close) range.
Also, seriously you guys, you can count the number of matchups that Marth noticably loses on a single hand; and he's the single most vicious, common obstacle in the way of the viability of an awful lot of characters, much like Melee Sheik. The fact that so many people are putting him below high tier is pretty damn weird.
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JOE!
Smash Hero
Being a high tier in a meta with only 8 relevant characters doesn't guarantee you'll be one with 38 relevant ones.
...that is of course unless you have legions upon legions of people who play you only because you're the best character and would whine then move to the next best or go back to melee if they were ever changed, unlike the other people who've welcomed and put up with their characters changing for over 2 years now.
...that is of course unless you have legions upon legions of people who play you only because you're the best character and would whine then move to the next best or go back to melee if they were ever changed, unlike the other people who've welcomed and put up with their characters changing for over 2 years now.
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Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
I might have exaggerated when I said "garbage", but relative to the rest of the cast, he's pretty bad. His jump squat buff was good, but it's not enough to save him considering all the rest of the nerfs that pretty much evened out the change. Zair is kinda good, but as long as you di out and away he can't get too much off it, also it had extra endlag added to it, so it's decently punishable.
I'm not going to say peach is top tier, but I think lower mid is way underestimating her. I can concede to the meta game in this game making it more difficult for her than melee, and I can see merit in what you're saying, though I'm not budging on high mid for her. Float canceling, turnip shenanigans with glide tossing, dsmash, fairly decent recovery, and fairly decent kill power screams nothing but high mid to me.
I'm not going to say peach is top tier, but I think lower mid is way underestimating her. I can concede to the meta game in this game making it more difficult for her than melee, and I can see merit in what you're saying, though I'm not budging on high mid for her. Float canceling, turnip shenanigans with glide tossing, dsmash, fairly decent recovery, and fairly decent kill power screams nothing but high mid to me.
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
I actually think Boiko is in the right ballpark with Marth. He goes evenish in a lot of matchups, clear wins by design in a handful of matchups, but he has matchups where he falls on the other side of that coin too. Looking at the characters alongside him, that seems to be a common trait in that portion of the tier list.
I can see arguments for moving him up within that tier, but moving him up toward's Ike's position in that list asserts top 10 status. I don't buy that.
I can see arguments for moving him up within that tier, but moving him up toward's Ike's position in that list asserts top 10 status. I don't buy that.
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Yeah Peach is surprisingly successful for how much people DON'T whine about her. She's actually the character that has the highest win ratio out of the entire cast atm (she's won 25% of the tournaments where she appeared in top 16). That can mean one of two things : either there's like, one or two Peaches that are really good and everyone else sucks balls, or the character is damn good.