Fitting that you would say that to Dad
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
robosteven
Smash Lord
so much constructive discussion has happened in the last page thank you based Mr. Shadow
also, to reference your reply from a few pages back @
steelguttey
, yeah rng is included in my implied bugfixes. If/once his "makes him work like every other character in the game works already" changes like invuln on grab and overall grab tweaks are done, Olimar's potential is like, really high. If he was more consistent (through bugfixes), I seriously believe he could wreck shop against like half the cast. I think he already can but the bugs are holding him back.
...I just don't want him to be drastically changed. I think he has some horrible matchups alongside some outstanding matchups. I don't think he gets wrecked by most everyone (which would make him bottom tier).
also steel the only reason I mentioned the Pikmin Throw thing is because Kirby's copy ability. Those hitboxes on all Pikmin pretty much make a wall of projectiles, and a wall of projectiles makes for afine sometimes OP neutral tool. One of Oli's biggest problems (excluding up-b) is his neutral because, while it does rack up a lot of damage, Pikmin Throw is pretty easy to get past, especially in the Melee/PM environment. Making all of his Pikmin in Pikmin Throw work like actual projectiles kinda like purples currently work would either give him B+ neutral game or like S++++ neutral game. Mostly I'm just theorycrafting about future Pikmin Throw at this point, but right now it's bad. Damage-racking doesn't mean squat if you can prevent it from happening to you by swatting the potential damage away (along with swatting a quarter of Olimar's recovery away LOL).
also, to reference your reply from a few pages back @
steelguttey
, yeah rng is included in my implied bugfixes. If/once his "makes him work like every other character in the game works already" changes like invuln on grab and overall grab tweaks are done, Olimar's potential is like, really high. If he was more consistent (through bugfixes), I seriously believe he could wreck shop against like half the cast. I think he already can but the bugs are holding him back....I just don't want him to be drastically changed. I think he has some horrible matchups alongside some outstanding matchups. I don't think he gets wrecked by most everyone (which would make him bottom tier).
also steel the only reason I mentioned the Pikmin Throw thing is because Kirby's copy ability. Those hitboxes on all Pikmin pretty much make a wall of projectiles, and a wall of projectiles makes for a
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Mr_Shadow
Smash Rookie
Warning Received
I think it's outright despicable for you & others here to accuse me of something like that. I sleep easy at night knowing that I have a clean conscience and not even in my most depraved moment would I stoop as low as to troll somebody online. And to think that this was to be a respectable forum where people were treated with some decency. Shame on you. SHAME ON YOU.
So what do you guys think of Ridley? I know he's kinda big and all, but I don't see his size being that big of an issue.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
I know the Olimar boards have suggested many ideas, but here is a proposed idea for pikmin throw that most of the Olimar boards seem to agree with. If side b was guarenteed to do one hit (so upon contact it does an immediate light stun with poor damage) and then attaches like usual. I would trade that for potential total damage (leave it at like 15-20).
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Places this is not: Melee Hell.
robosteven
Smash Lord
That's pretty much what I'm going for with my "real projectile" thing. Pikmin Throw doesn't really work because 1. the damage happens a bit after the Pikmin latches on so even if you get your opponent with the Pikmin they'll probably swat it right off before damage even happens, and 2. lack of stun pretty much prevents it from being an actually decent neutral option (aside from purples and debatably whites because of the sheer amount of damage they rack up, and then explode).
Giving it like, Falco laser stun and low damage (on all Pikmin minus Purple, which should stay the way they are right now) would actually allow Olimar a strong neutral option aside from pivot grab which is, contrary to every salty player I've 3-stocked or more by grab-setups into gimps alone, not impossible to get past.
robosteven
Smash Lord
Felt like replying to this, forgot to until now. Sorry for the double-post.
...Yes.
Without the fixes he's low-mid at best.
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
olimar is a dumb character. cus he has really, really stupid ****. people think hes all around bad like kirby, and thats why he sucks, but he has some stupid stuff but its outweighed by even stupider stuff that makes him bad.so much constructive discussion has happened in the last page thank you based Mr. Shadow
also, to reference your reply from a few pages back @
...I just don't want him to be drastically changed. I think he has some horrible matchups alongside some outstanding matchups. I don't think he gets wrecked by most everyone (which would make him bottom tier).
also steel the only reason I mentioned the Pikmin Throw thing is because Kirby's copy ability. Those hitboxes on all Pikmin pretty much make a wall of projectiles, and a wall of projectiles makes for afinesometimes OP neutral tool. One of Oli's biggest problems (excluding up-b) is his neutral because, while it does rack up a lot of damage, Pikmin Throw is pretty easy to get past, especially in the Melee/PM environment. Making all of his Pikmin in Pikmin Throw work like actual projectiles kinda like purples currently work would either give him B+ neutral game or like S++++ neutral game. Mostly I'm just theorycrafting about future Pikmin Throw at this point, but right now it's bad. Damage-racking doesn't mean squat if you can prevent it from happening to you by swatting the potential damage away (along with swatting a quarter of Olimar's recovery away LOL).
like, usmash is ridiculous. comboes into itself (not as much as before but), starts really early (frame 8 iirc) and it can kill really early with a purple. its just on a jank character.
pikmin throw is fine right now. its a high risk high reward projectile that gives olimar so much momentum when it hits. it forces the enemy to do something dumb, which is ****ing silly. the problem is, pikmin stamina sux. pikmin die really easily. whites, the best pikmin to throw, have no stamina and die if the enemy accidentally hits it. its dumb.
also, his ****ing pivot grab is STUPID. **** has dumb range, a endlag that isnt even that bad compared to other tethers and starts up really early. also it leads into his dumb throw combos.
3.0 olimar was good and really really awful at the same time and it was weird. he had dumb damage, dumb comboes, and a **** neutral game if he was forced to be in a bad situation and that was kinda his only flaw. you had to have full control of them atch at all times, cause at other points you suck.
god i ****ing hate this character why do i even try
Vandire
Smash Cadet
We must ascend to Melee Heaven
Top Tier: 
High Tier:
Upper Mid:
Lower Mid:
Low:
Doesn't Work:
Just some notes on each tier:
Top Tier:
High Tier:
Upper Mid Tier:
Lower Mid Tier
Low Tier
I don't know much about a bunch of the characters, and I wrote this at work, so it's pretty quick. Just some thoughts.
High Tier:
Upper Mid:
Lower Mid:
Low:
Doesn't Work:
Just some notes on each tier:
Top Tier:
Fox: It's Fox, c'mon.
Wolf: Insane combo/pressure game, controls space well with blaster, has set ups into kill moves.
Sheik: Great edge guarding, combos, and DI mix ups on throws that will get you killed at stupid low percents.
Samus: Insane stage control, forces the opponent to adapt to two separate modes, still has a good recovery despite what the Samus boards may say.
Falco: Arguably the best neutral in the game. Insane pressure and combos.
Wolf: Insane combo/pressure game, controls space well with blaster, has set ups into kill moves.
Sheik: Great edge guarding, combos, and DI mix ups on throws that will get you killed at stupid low percents.
Samus: Insane stage control, forces the opponent to adapt to two separate modes, still has a good recovery despite what the Samus boards may say.
Falco: Arguably the best neutral in the game. Insane pressure and combos.
High Tier:
Roy: Great combo game, ftilt is a projectile, OP crouch canceling, only hindered by a less than great recovery.
Ike: Flying hurricane with a sword.
Mario: Spammable projectile, very strong combos, solid recovery, good kill moves, Gallo 3-0'd Prof.
Falcon: Just like Ike but with less range and no need to QD.
Lucario: Untapped potential, insane pressure, haven't seen enough results though.
Tink: Great combos, projectiles, and set ups into kills. Only thing holding him back is his less than favorable match ups at the top tier level.
Diddy: One banana is still pretty good. Has good set ups into kills and good stage control.
Ike: Flying hurricane with a sword.
Mario: Spammable projectile, very strong combos, solid recovery, good kill moves, Gallo 3-0'd Prof.
Falcon: Just like Ike but with less range and no need to QD.
Lucario: Untapped potential, insane pressure, haven't seen enough results though.
Tink: Great combos, projectiles, and set ups into kills. Only thing holding him back is his less than favorable match ups at the top tier level.
Diddy: One banana is still pretty good. Has good set ups into kills and good stage control.
Upper Mid Tier:
ROB: Decent top tier match ups, great at controlling space with gyro, and sniping with lasers. Can't be comboed too well.
Ness: Good top tier match ups, firmly losing to only Samus and Ike, everyone else isn't bad at all. Great grab game, strong bait and punish, great tech follow ups, slept on.
Game and Watch: Up+b.
Mewtwo: Strong combo game and edge guarding, nair is real good, shadow ball is great, amazing recovery, kill throw.
Yoshi: Auto combos out of grabs, sticky grab, good projectile, super armor can save from a lot of kills.
Donkey Kong: see POOB
Luigi: Decent enough combo game, hard to combo him, nair is great, good recovery distance, but relatively simple to edge guard, lots of other tools, but most of them are just okay.
Wario: OP command grab and side b tech chases.
ZSS: Does Falcon but with no kill moves.
Lucas: Still has insane combos and decent pressure but now has a decently mediocre recovery and a horrible combo weight.
Marth: Great range/combos, has a hard time killing w/o a gimp or tipper.
Snake: Good stage control with mines/projectiles, sticking is pretty strong, has a real spike, and an okay recovery, can't handle pressure that well, gets comboed kind of hard, has a tough time with top tier.
Sonic: Really fast.
Zelda: Great defensive playstyle,can sometimes force an approach with Din's, depending on the MU, kicks are fast and strong, Nayru's is pretty good, good recovery with ability to cancel, super light, can't deal with fast characters with good range, has a huge blindspot mid range.
Ness: Good top tier match ups, firmly losing to only Samus and Ike, everyone else isn't bad at all. Great grab game, strong bait and punish, great tech follow ups, slept on.
Game and Watch: Up+b.
Mewtwo: Strong combo game and edge guarding, nair is real good, shadow ball is great, amazing recovery, kill throw.
Yoshi: Auto combos out of grabs, sticky grab, good projectile, super armor can save from a lot of kills.
Donkey Kong: see POOB
Luigi: Decent enough combo game, hard to combo him, nair is great, good recovery distance, but relatively simple to edge guard, lots of other tools, but most of them are just okay.
Wario: OP command grab and side b tech chases.
ZSS: Does Falcon but with no kill moves.
Lucas: Still has insane combos and decent pressure but now has a decently mediocre recovery and a horrible combo weight.
Marth: Great range/combos, has a hard time killing w/o a gimp or tipper.
Snake: Good stage control with mines/projectiles, sticking is pretty strong, has a real spike, and an okay recovery, can't handle pressure that well, gets comboed kind of hard, has a tough time with top tier.
Sonic: Really fast.
Zelda: Great defensive playstyle,can sometimes force an approach with Din's, depending on the MU, kicks are fast and strong, Nayru's is pretty good, good recovery with ability to cancel, super light, can't deal with fast characters with good range, has a huge blindspot mid range.
Lower Mid Tier
Charizard: Big, gets comboed easily, decent kill moves, range, and movement speed. Bad recovery, despite glide.
Peach: Too slow to do much, she has some tools, but considering the ability of half the cast to either camp or outrange her, she suffers.
Kirby: Good combos and edge guarding, kill moves are somewhat unreliable and predictable.
Link: Guaranteed kill set ups on a lot of the cast, good OoS option in up+b, unless it's baited, decent recovery. Gets comboed super hard, has to commit a lot.
Ivysaur: You can SDI bair so easily. Ivy really likes to let you know what move she's going to throw out with her ridiculous start time on almost everything.
Meta Knight: Lost a lot, still gets comboed hard. Recovery offers a lot of mix ups, but most are slow and easily punished.
Ganondorf: Good range and kill power, dies to an offstage nair from, like, anyone at about 50%.
Jiggs: Rest is really good still, and she has lots of set ups into it. Dies at crazy low percents. Can't wall of pain as effectively against the cast.
D3: Good range, weirdly good projectile. Slow and can't really kill with anything short of a gimp.
Peach: Too slow to do much, she has some tools, but considering the ability of half the cast to either camp or outrange her, she suffers.
Kirby: Good combos and edge guarding, kill moves are somewhat unreliable and predictable.
Link: Guaranteed kill set ups on a lot of the cast, good OoS option in up+b, unless it's baited, decent recovery. Gets comboed super hard, has to commit a lot.
Ivysaur: You can SDI bair so easily. Ivy really likes to let you know what move she's going to throw out with her ridiculous start time on almost everything.
Meta Knight: Lost a lot, still gets comboed hard. Recovery offers a lot of mix ups, but most are slow and easily punished.
Ganondorf: Good range and kill power, dies to an offstage nair from, like, anyone at about 50%.
Jiggs: Rest is really good still, and she has lots of set ups into it. Dies at crazy low percents. Can't wall of pain as effectively against the cast.
D3: Good range, weirdly good projectile. Slow and can't really kill with anything short of a gimp.
Low Tier
Squirtle: I don't know much about him except that withdraw is a hard committment, and his recovery isn't that great.
Pikachu: Really bad version of Fox.
Pit: See Squirtle.
Bowser: Slow, huge, gets comboed to death, bad recovery. Great kill power though, only takes 100 years for his attacks to come out. Suprinsingly okay at edge guarding with bair.
Pikachu: Really bad version of Fox.
Pit: See Squirtle.
Bowser: Slow, huge, gets comboed to death, bad recovery. Great kill power though, only takes 100 years for his attacks to come out. Suprinsingly okay at edge guarding with bair.
I don't know much about a bunch of the characters, and I wrote this at work, so it's pretty quick. Just some thoughts.
Shoto
Smash Apprentice
Toon link is pretty good now, but I like that. I kinda wish every character was put on his level. He isn't over powered and isn't cheap. Just has a solid combo game and a few decent kill set ups.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Looks reasonable, though my opinions re: ROB and Marth are pretty well-documented, and putting Ganon below Sonic or DK is pure lunacy. @Ripple may have something to say about your D3 placement. Puff still sucks.Top Tier:
High Tier:
Upper Mid:
Lower Mid:
Low:
Doesn't Work:
I'd also like to correct what appears to be a common misconception about Bowser:
He actually has a bunch of attacks that come out fairly quickly - the slow ones (fsmash, ftilt) are pretty much universally terrible and just not used except to troll. His real problem is the lag behind his attacks, ie. how easy they all (barring jab1) are to punish.
DK has a warlock punch that he can store and guaranteed set ups into it off of grabs. Idk, I think he's slept on. Poob cleared house at TFZ, beating a lot of good people.
What's Bowser's quickest KO move outside of fair/upb? I can definitely agree that he has a lot of end lag, and you know him better than I do.
Soupchicken
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
- Messages
- 19
Her recovery is worse than melee with the tether mechanic changes. She takes forever to get back to the stage which gives the opponent years to get to the ledge for the free tether punish. And she only gets a single tether.
They nerfed her Fire up-smash significantly and her Ice Fair. Her zair is still decent but not as ridiculous as 3.02. Her other PM changes include: an improved Roll, crawl, easier super wavedash, airborne charge shot charge and faster grab. All of these are nice but minor changes. The Ice mode has a nice Fair and good missiles but everything else is pretty meh. I consider it a side-grade. Samus is better than her melee incarnation, but much worse than her 3.02 self. I do not think that she is top-tier, more like upper-mid. That being said, Samus is a character with a very high skill ceiling so it's possible that she is better than she seems to me right now.
Player -0
Smash Hero
robosteven
Smash Lord
I actually wish they just made his grab work like Smash 4 Olimar's grab works so that people would stop complaining about how jank it is. It comes out on frame 11 (which ain't fast bruh), doesn't have a grab-box on his body at all (you can be on top of someone and miss a grab), and lasts for a stupid amount of time. The third thing is the only jank/stupid/amazing thing about it, and the first two are just bad. If it was active for the same amount of frames it's active for in Smash 4 (which would be way fewer), that would be a pretty big nerf, but also remove the jank/stupid/amazing from his grab.
His throw combos are about as dumb as the guaranteed throw combos a bunch of other characters already have. His crazy amount of kill confirms make him actually viable (under the scenario where his bugs are fixed and up-b is changed).
3.0 he did have stupid damage and combo game, but now in 3.5 it's just good. I've gotten used to the changes and I think they're good. I think his overall moveset is near complete, it's mostly just bugs and some special moves that need adjusting.
Pikmin Throw is only high-risk because of his stupid recovery, and it's only high-reward with white Pikmin because damage and they explode. It's like low-risk high-reward with purples because hitstun. Reds, blues and yellows is just straight-up-risk because yeah they do some damage but nothing really significant, they have the risk of getting killed, and you're potentially sacrificing a part of your recovery to maybe distract someone which really doesn't do anything against competent players. If those three kind of
tl:dr Pikmin Throw is only good with purples and whites.
His jank/problem area is really only on grab, recovery, and Pikmin Throw. I actually think everything else he has is pretty much fine, his combos are about as "dumb" as combos from Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falcon, Mario, you get the idea.
edit: I really hope the PMDT is reading this so that they can correct me on anything blatantly wrong with anything I've said in any of my posts about Olimar. Like, feel free to pm me or something about this because this character needs to be talked about, and I need to filter my salt from my what I think are actually decent ideas.
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Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Possible. Ganon is really stupid right now, though.
Against floaties: utilt comes out on frame 7, and wow is it laggy. Against fastfallers: who needs KO moves?
In seriousness, IMO Bowser's dependence on Fair as both a spacing/damage and a kill move is suboptimal. Currently lobbying for change, dumped about 5 pages of speculation on Cmart about it.
robosteven
Smash Lord
solidly mid tier at best. nair is dumb, but no one really cares 'cuz ganon. almost has to live off of hard reads, due to mobility, and it's almost worth it, but the moment momentum shifts, you remember that you're playing ganon and it feels bad man.
honestly, his playstyle is fun, so i don't mind him being a mid tier at best. only changes i would want to see are fix up nair (probably push the ac window back away from the second hit a lot more, then slightly lower the normal/lcancelled landing lag), find some way to make dthrow not a ridiculous chain grab, and then give him a not totally abysmal grab.
he's not totally without merit: he has good non-disjoint range, with some disjoint tacked to the end of attacks, as well. he basically always deals double digits of damage, outside of sour spots. a lot of his attacks have very good meaty hitboxes (so coverage and duration). he also has a good end lag on a lot of aerials, in terms of autocancel windows (sh bair/uair into wl or another jump, etc... full jump fair-jump/wl/whatever; everything that nair is, etc...) and, he's got a good conditioning game going on, with his super strong aerials and the command grab into tech chases.
those don't really offset his lack of mobility and stage control, which makes him unable to react to many situations (hence, hard readz 4 lyfe) and to balance his hitbox coverage and power, he tends to have slower start up on a lot of moves (except nair, luuuuuuuuulz) making it easier for quick characters to interrupt him.
She still has recovery mix ups and can quickly tether back if the opponent is across the stage. Everyone was nerfed since 3.02, you can't compare to that anymore. Ice mode is her well needed arsenal against floaties. In melee she had a difficult time killing characters like Jigglypuff and Peach, now she has a separate mode to handle that. She's also one of the only characters in the game that has arguably even match ups against the spacies.
Eh, I think he's overhyped. That's just me though.
Frame 7 utilt definitely isn't bad but so much risk/reward. I feel like Bowser has to commit so much.
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
Stereo KiDD and I would disagree.
Ness has some of the best tools is the game, but the problem I see with a lot of other Ness mains, is that they don't work around his large weaknesses, thus they think he's bad.
Also, people like to john for their character so they have an excuse when they're not doing as well as they think they should. I wish you guys could meet Stereo some time. Dude just walks up with this swagger like, "I'ma **** this dude up, I don't care who he's playing." And he does.
Edit: @
steelguttey
plz do.
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Mix ups are: use screw attack, or use grapple and hope for the best.
Pretty much don't use grapple unless the opponent has committed an aerial and an airdodge will help you, or the opponent isn't near the edge yet.
But as it takes a month to bomb your way back to stage if you want any horizontal movement (and you're also committed to recovery from below) samus is SUPER easy to guard against.
Most things beat Screw attack, and if they dont, and trade, usually it puts samus at a point where she cant get close enough to the stage to up to it again anyway..
You have stalling, two recovery options (where most characters have one), missiles/charge shot if you're high enough, you also don't have to bomb jump, and can instead just lay one bomb and drift with that, or you can drop a bomb, fade back, and bomb jump with the bomb you previously dropped, or you can double bomb jump to try and get your opponent to show what they're going to do to edge guard you. You have so many options off stage to feign your recovery, and a lot of different ways to cover the ledge unless you're hit at a low angle which is favorable for no characters in the game, so it doesn't even matter.
I used to main Samus, and I never had a huge problem with her recovery, and I played with good players with plenty of Samus experience (Codi, Animal for example). Did I get edge guarded sometimes, sure. All the time? No.
Samus' recovery is not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.
Edit: Plus she can save her double jump for like...ever.
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Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Dtilt doesn't kill unless it's right on the edge. Ftilt has a bit more oomph, but still doesn't actually kill until pretty shockingly high % -- and is actually quite painfully slow. Utilt kills really low against floaties, though.
Dash attack is almost strictly better than ftilt anyway
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
Samus' recovery isn't the reason she isn't top tier. It's because she has no aerial mobility, has a hard time getting back to the ground after being launched up, and the worst grab in the game. She also can only pretend to pressure shields, when you're playing against a Samus realize that you're safe just shielding until she goes airborne 90% of the time, because the risk/reward for her grab is super skewed in the opponents favor. Her lack of aerial mobility and no significant forward facing disjoint means it's very difficult to ever recover high. And then she has a handful of terrible match-ups that are just painful to play.
Ice mode is a godsend against Puff and a few other floaties, but it only has two good moves. Her worst move was actually nerfed in 3.5, ice f-smash. Also ice d-tilt is pretty much always worse than d-smash.
I'm rambling but the point is Samus has huge weaknesses like all other well designed characters, and these skew her match-ups and keep her from top tier.
P.S. I'm fairly happy with the character right now, but I do have changes that I would like to see.
Ice mode is a godsend against Puff and a few other floaties, but it only has two good moves. Her worst move was actually nerfed in 3.5, ice f-smash. Also ice d-tilt is pretty much always worse than d-smash.
I'm rambling but the point is Samus has huge weaknesses like all other well designed characters, and these skew her match-ups and keep her from top tier.
P.S. I'm fairly happy with the character right now, but I do have changes that I would like to see.
If you're letting the opponent safely sit in their shield, that's just you failing to capitalize on an opportunity, especially if they're doing it habitually.
You don't need forward facing disjoint to recover high, although I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean if she's launched high?
Pretty much agree 100 percent here. Can't you use ice dtilt to launch away at a low angle if they don't sweet spot the ledge?
What would you like to see? Geniunely curious.
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
You can certainly condition people to sit in shield and then just go for grabs or other mix-ups, but with characters who have a decent grab you don't take the best punish they can think of if you whiff, so it's often not worth it if they decided to use another option that also beats any of her fake shield pressure. Point being here that the opponent usually has more options that beat all of her options against shield, requiring at least a soft read usually. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as Samus should just about always be forcing them to approach with projectile and z-air harassment. I was just pointing out one of her issues.
I mean that if Samus is ever trying to land above stage rather than going for ledge, it's fairly easy to swat her away because she doesn't have the mobility to make n-air trade or win without a lengthy bomb-jump setup, which is also super punishable if it's close enough to get her to the stage.
Obviously I'd like to see ice mode be made useful outside f-air and up-smash. Ice d-tilt should have less endlag, that way you could actually use it as a tech chase opportunity with charge shot, rather than always resetting neutral because there is no followup on that angle. It's ok against missed sweetspots, but she already has other tools that work better for that. Ice f-smash needs tweaks, obviously. Switching to ice makes her f-smash 6 frames slower (frame 16 rather than 9) reduces the range, and has no appreciable use outside of still technically providing a hitbox if you accidentally f-smashed expecting something decent. It also will never link to the second hit past very low percents, and even if you miraculously land the second hit, they are put in an ice block(hilarious, don't take this away please) and sent flying too far up to actually follow-up. At least in 3.02 when you landed the second hit you got a nice set-up. I would either make ice f-smash come out faster, or simply decrease the time before the second hitbox comes out so it will actually hit if you land the move. And tweak the weird ice block launch angle/physics(if possible) so that it's actually possible to follow up when you land it.
I'm also not totally happy with global tether changes, though they are fair for now, if a bit un-interactive.
This is pretty much why Squirtle is not low tier. I won't vouch for any higher because quite frankly it's not worth the effort without footage to back things up. Squirtle has the advantage of being able to approach from anywhere though, and his recovery is definitely not bad, I'd argue his recovery is actually better than average.
I can elaborate more if you specify what needs elaboration, but I'd rather not do a giant, general write up right now.
you say 'feign' you mean 'prolong'
Things like needles, and falcons legs make recovery super hard.
Even a peanut from diddy can ruin the day.
pretty much any projectile that ruins a bomb = you plummet about 2 samus heights.
im probably just getting too predictable with recovery too.
Fair enough, i'm probably just biased based more on the matchups i play.
Things like needles, and falcons legs make recovery super hard.
Even a peanut from diddy can ruin the day.
pretty much any projectile that ruins a bomb = you plummet about 2 samus heights.
im probably just getting too predictable with recovery too.
PlateProp
Smash Master
Mfw saying Squirtle has a bad recovery are we even playing the same mod man
and it all circles back to the bad squirtle players
Paradoxium
Smash Master
Player -0
Smash Hero
Had a thought, if Fox is doing shield pressure then he's not going to be DI'ing that well and most Nairs send outward (So he'll go sideways, usually to easy gimp spot or death), he also has a chance of messing up and doing a Side-B, missing the timing, or an Up-B which one leads to death and the other two lead to free combo.
EclipseKirby
Smash Cadet
That's making a lot of assumptions. That you're playing a character where Nair is a good OoS option, that the nair is strong and sends away, that Fox is doing his shield pressure with his back close to the ledge, and that Fox is frequently leaving openings for you to get this Nair out.
the problem has never been that you can't hit Fox out oh his pressure into a conversion. its that the risk reward for trying is so skewed for Fox.
the problem has never been that you can't hit Fox out oh his pressure into a conversion. its that the risk reward for trying is so skewed for Fox.
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Player -0
Smash Hero
He doesn't need to be close to the ledge, there are quite a few characters with good OoS options, if not a decent Up-B OoS. Zelda, Pit, and co. are pretty boned though.
Fox doesn't need to be leaving many openings for you to get the OoS option out, only one is required, assuming that you're waiting for the opportunity.
Not sure how the risk-reward is THAT skewed for Fox. He gets a knockdown or a knockaway which you get to choose when (because you're attempting the OoS option) so you have the upperhand in reaction time while he has the upper hand in frames and stuff. From there we'll assume that you get the stand up tech. He has to run over (probably during stand up) and then it goes into RPS of the shield, grab, attack and stuff in which Fox has the advantage but yeah. Depending on how fast he reacted you could do a retreating SH.
This is all assuming that your OoS option didn't at least trade with Fox's stuff.
Fox doesn't need to be leaving many openings for you to get the OoS option out, only one is required, assuming that you're waiting for the opportunity.
Not sure how the risk-reward is THAT skewed for Fox. He gets a knockdown or a knockaway which you get to choose when (because you're attempting the OoS option) so you have the upperhand in reaction time while he has the upper hand in frames and stuff. From there we'll assume that you get the stand up tech. He has to run over (probably during stand up) and then it goes into RPS of the shield, grab, attack and stuff in which Fox has the advantage but yeah. Depending on how fast he reacted you could do a retreating SH.
This is all assuming that your OoS option didn't at least trade with Fox's stuff.
Fortress
Smash Master
Because "leave Mewtwo alone and make everybody else better" can mean a lot of things. Are we making 3.02 Lucas any better? God knows how that could possibly happen, but it wouldn't be pretty. I can't even fathom a better version of 3.02 Pit with self-confirming arrows.