Tier List Speculation

[Oracle]

DMG is the only person in this thread who actually understands what fundamentals are

 

[trash?]

"fundamentals" are mostly a buzzword used by salty sheik players and old men in the FGC, tbh

if a game doesn't need fundamentals to play well at a top level, does that not say more about the game you're playing than the player you're bashing on?

 

[victinivcreate1]

DMG is the only person in this thread who actually understands what fundamentals are

So even you don't know what fundamentals are?
Aren't you one of the best PM players who doesnt use the top tiers?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Look I dunno if the tkbreezy stage list is bad but its a lot better than what people end up using as a standard stagelist (bottom row starter, middle row counter picks). Making a stage list is the weirdest part of the meta though cause it has such a direct influence on matchups and there's no obvious philosophy to use in its creation. Do you use it to try to "artificially" create balance? Do you try to work around the idea of "true neutral" stages (whatever those are)? How do we even define what the killbox should look like in relation to the stage? We could take averages, but what stages do we use to determine that average? The melee stage list, cuz melee?

 

[trash?]

for the most part, TK's stage list seemingly exists to let all of MDVA's diddy players feel even more boring to the average viewer with all that blast zone space

 

[DMG]

Well Diddy is a lose-lose char. Give him a lot of space and it's tragic, crowd the room and you get janky/cheesy/aggro silliness. I don't blame any stage list over chars like Diddy, cause they are already hard to neutralize from a stage perspective

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds I'm sure we'd all love to see footage of you playing against good players if your Smash fundamentals are so impeccable

If you had read any part of my posts, you'd note that I've said nothing of the sort.

Meh, why bother

 

[Vashimus]

Someone with a semblance of actual melee/pm fundamentals. The callout stands. Still open to being proven wrong, though I don't know if/when I'll ever be able to make it to a national :/

Seem confident in yourself to me.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I don't know if you're illiterate, or if you elected not to read my very next post out of malice/trollery, but kindly **** off. I'm tired of this witch hunt BS.

 

[Vashimus]

No, I won't **** off, but then again, maybe your insults and backpedalling tell me everything I need to know.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, I'm just gonna make a habit of ignoring trolls and children.

We now return to your regularly scheduled tier-listing.
No idea what I've posted tierlist-wise earlier in the thread, but this looks about right.
Raptor Jesus Tier:
Turkey Jesus Tier:
Damn Solid Tier:
Mediocre Once Opponent Figures Them Out Tier:
Has Some Problems Tier:
Has Some Major Problems Probably Fixed in 3.5 Tier:
Fired From Walmart Tier:
Fix Pls, No Bias Tier:

I'm really unsure of where Peach, D3, and Ness end up. We don't really have any great local players of any of them (our Melee peaches don't really play her in PM), so I'm unsure of how they've changed from melee/how strong D3 actually is.

D3 is just so weird. >=[

 

[Vashimus]

Honestly, it's more childish to throw your hands up in frustration over a disagreement rather than talking it out like an actual adult. Whoever gets angry first loses, as they say.

I'm just sick of defensive characters getting labelled as gimmicky and OP simply because people can't auto-pilot their way to victory and actually have to work on spacing and stage control if they hope to win against them. It's why I think characters like Ivysaur, Zelda and Samus are excellent to have in the game.

Don't get it twisted. Ivysaur USED to be ridiculous, that we can agree on. But it's certainly not the case now.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Honestly, it's more childish to throw your hands up in frustration over a disagreement rather than talking it out like an actual adult. Whoever gets angry first loses, as they say.

It would be, if I hadn't already admitted probably being in the wrong about Denti (though I'm 100% convinced I'm correct about Ivy) on the previous page. Rubbing it in after the matter is settled doesn't make you wrong, but it does make you an absolutely spectacular prick.

I'm just sick of defensive characters getting labelled as gimmicky and OP simply because people can't auto-pilot their way to victory and actually have to work on spacing and stage control if they hope to win against them. It's why I think characters like Ivysaur, Zelda and Samus are excellent to have in the game.

I like defensive characters. Samus is a great example of a well-designed (if maybe slightly too strong) defensive character who is very capable of keeping opponents out and makes great use of both character-specific and general tech skill; but who can be beaten by pretty much the entirety of the cast, and has exploitable holes in her defenses.

In fact, as you can see on my tier list (after some thought, even moved her up a couple spots), I think Samus is overall a stronger character than Ivy -- she's just not nearly as polarizing or infuriating to play against. She requires more skill to do well, and manages to be strong without effectively invalidating a number of cast members (that I'm aware of), which is pretty cool imo.

I don't understand why that simple idea is apparently so utterly opaque to the majority of the population here, but whatever. I think we've sufficiently flogged that poor horse's remains.

Don't get it twisted. Ivysaur USED to be ridiculous, that we can agree on. But it's certainly not the case now.

She used to be about as good as Mewtwo is now, and for pretty similar reasons. Now she's just poorly designed.

Can we let it die now? Jesus.

 

[jtm94]

Zelda is terrible to have in this game. You lose friends, sleep, enemies, a character in 3.5. It's a mixed life.

 

[mimgrim]

Peach is pretty much the same as she is in Melee, but with buffs and only buffs. Though despite only being buffed she still feels pretty different for some reason, and I don't really like it. Still a good character though.

And I definitely wouldn't put R.O.B, DK, or Falcon that high. Charizard is waaaaay better then DK. D3 is also a pretty good character, better then DK at any rate. DK really isn't that great.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/projectm/

You guys have all seen this or voted right? Helpful and fun to look through.

 

[InfinityCollision]

How long until the eventscrubs list isn't mentioned at least once on every page?

Peach is pretty much the same as she is in Melee, but with buffs and only buffs.

This is true, but the broadened roster hasn't really done her any favors. The sudden prevalence of projectiles that she can't float past for free is probably the biggest, but not the only strike against her in PM. Look at Link v Peach for example. Enjoy watching the two camp each other for eight solid minutes if they don't **** up/grow impatient (in which case Link is likely to win). 5+ minute matches are pretty much guaranteed even on smaller stages.

 

[steelguttey]

ok guys new drinking game every time that ****ing tier list gets linked we take a shot

 

[SpiderMad]

He had been doing a lot of Melee recently, and considered dropping PM entirely and just monstering Melee instead (before Smash 4 came out). I was literally in his room when he burned, YES LIT ON FIRE, his SD card for PM lol.

What made him do this? Wait, so he burned his PM SD card: but he only "considered" entirely dropping PM and hasn't? So he bought a new one?

 

[Cpt.]

What do you guys think of this?

S Tier:


A+ Tier:


A Tier:


B+ Tier:


B Tier:


C+ Tier:


C Tier:


C- Tier:


D Tier:


E Tier:


Failure Tier:

 

[CyberZixx]

I think falco and sheik are ludicrously low on your list.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar (i say this too much) should be higher and why in the **** is yoshi so low (yes i did change my mind on that yoshi is ****ing good)

 

[Cpt.]

I think falco and sheik are ludicrously low on your list.

Yeah I thought Falco was still pretty good, but I haven't seen anyone use him. Just one guy from Xanadu. Sheik just seems eh.

olimar (i say this too much) should be higher and why in the **** is yoshi so low (yes i did change my mind on that yoshi is ****ing good)

Can you show me something with Yoshi? There is nothing good I see about him. Amsa doesn't even use him in PM.

 

[Frost | Odds]

>

uh, no.

 

[Cpt.]

uh, no.

Reasons?

 

[_Chrome]

What do you guys think of this?

S Tier:


A+ Tier:


A Tier:


B+ Tier:


B Tier:


C+ Tier:


C Tier:


C- Tier:


D Tier:


E Tier:


Failure Tier:

Any explanations for your placement of:
-Falco
-Marth
-Lucas above Mewtwo
-Wario
-Lucario
The rest I can understand - it really depends on personal experiences/bias and general opinion. However, the characters I listed heavily and notably contradict my placements, so I would like to know your reasoning.

 

[mimgrim]

This is true, but the broadened roster hasn't really done her any favors. The sudden prevalence of projectiles that she can't float past for free is probably the biggest, but not the only strike against her in PM. Look at Link v Peach for example. Enjoy watching the two camp each other for eight solid minutes if they don't **** up/grow impatient (in which case Link is likely to win). 5+ minute matches are pretty much guaranteed even on smaller stages.

I wouldn't say more campy matches are a strike against her really, as she is naturally that kind of character to begin with and if a peach player gets impatient... well... that says a lot in and of itself really. I also don't believe Peach has as hard a time against the new projectiles as you make out. Any Peach player worth their salt is going to be good at item play and will be able to counter play Nanners relatively well. Razer Leaf, ZSS' Lasers, Spheres, PK Freeze, and Wolf's Lasers are projectiles that float can work against. Pikmin can be a bit tricky but she can handle them decently. Waddle Toss is slow but an angled up one can give her a few problems here and there. Gyromite is more of a ground based item that can be picked up so it's not that big of deal, R.O.B's laser is a different story however. Nades can be tricky. Bombs can be trick but they are catchable. Rang is a problem. Pills... I'm not sure about Pills however I imagine the angle of them and their bounce trajectory don't hinder her Float too much, IIRC. Overall I feel like she stills handles projectiles well.

What do you guys think of this?

I think it's horrible.

Can you show me something with Yoshi? There is nothing good I see about him. Amsa doesn't even use him in PM.

Amas probably doesn't want to mess up his Melee Yoshi. I mean, PM Yoshi is pretty different with the available OOS options now and different parrying system.

 

[Ningildo]

What do you guys think of this?

S Tier:


A+ Tier:


A Tier:


B+ Tier:


B Tier:


C+ Tier:


C Tier:


C- Tier:


D Tier:


E Tier:


Failure Tier:

Just saying, but why is x character at x tier(aka reasoning)? Really, these tier lists (here and elsewhere) need more reasoning other then public voting and personal bias.

Most characters just need tweaks tbh (give Olimar brawl disjoint again on USmash if real), although some need nerfs in order to not be stupid (say, increase endlag on M2's Bair for example). At least I'd like to think so. I don't know about you guys, but needing to relearn MU's because the next version completely overhauls some characters isn't exactly fun.

Again, please back up tier lists with reasoning. A tier list filled with personal bias isn't gonna help anyone (E.g. Roy should be lower, cause while he can combo nearly everyone with ridiculous ease, he can get 0-death'd by nearly everyone on contact as well, on top of getting gimped fairly easy).

 

[steelguttey]

Can you show me something with Yoshi? There is nothing good I see about him. Amsa doesn't even use him in PM.

 

[Cpt.]

Just saying, but why is x character at x tier(aka reasoning)? Really, these tier lists (here and elsewhere) need more reasoning other then public voting and personal bias.

Most characters just need tweaks tbh (give Olimar brawl disjoint again on USmash if real), although some need nerfs in order to not be stupid (say, increase endlag on M2's Bair for example). At least I'd like to think so. I don't know about you guys, but needing to relearn MU's because the next version completely overhauls some characters isn't exactly fun.

Again, please back up tier lists with reasoning. A tier list filled with personal bias isn't gonna help anyone (E.g. Roy should be lower, cause while he can combo nearly everyone with ridiculous ease, he can get 0-death'd by nearly everyone on contact as well, on top of getting gimped fairly easy).

The list is meant to be general thought. The middle tier is pretty up in the air.

For Roy specifically it's not true that he can get get 0 to death'd easily. There are far more characters that are easier to combo.

 

[steelguttey]

still. olimar is 2low4me i have no idea why he isnt solid mid tier yet please like my character

 

[Cpt.]

still. olimar is 2low4me i have no idea why he isnt solid mid tier yet please like my character

Mainly because his character has glitches in PM and his recovery is by far the worst tether.

Do you what round this is because I am looking through the Zenith tourney and I don't see Raptor anywhere in the matches on Clash Tournaments' YouTube. Maybe if the Yoshi got to like top 8.....

 

[Ningildo]

When does Sethlon get 0 to death'd a lot? ever?

Um, remember that time he got touched by Mew2king's Marth at Apex 2014? And nearly got 0 death'd by a Dair Spike (that didn't sweetspot) stock one? Among others. Sethlon is very good, no question, but regardless, Roy is still combofood for a good portion of the cast and is gimped very easily by anyone with projectile.

And still waiting for that reasoning behind your tier list, lol. I don't get why we need to give reasons to give our doubts to that tier list some solid foundation when your reasoning for said list is not present 9.9

 

[MasterBlu]

What do you guys think of this?

S Tier:


A+ Tier:


A Tier:


B+ Tier:


B Tier:


C+ Tier:


C Tier:


C- Tier:


D Tier:


E Tier:


Failure Tier:

In attempting to develop a list of my own, I feel similarly with certain disagreements:

Too Low:







Unsure:



(close I think though)

Too High:



(I might change my mind though if someone enlightens me)

Otherwise, I think this is a decent start personally. Remember this subjective to each person. For reference though, I am a main in PM and I think his placement here is close to perfect (either first is C+ or last in B tier).

 

[steelguttey]

Mainly because his character has glitches in PM and his recovery is by far the worst tether.

his tether is actually not as awful as people make it out to be. when it works at least. it lets him go sooooo deep and still recover from pretty far/ the only actual glitches i can think of that matter is pikmin jumping off into the abyss and tether deciding it doesnt want to work today

 

[Cpt.]

his tether is actually not as awful as people make it out to be. when it works at least. it lets him go sooooo deep and still recover from pretty far/ the only actual glitches i can think of that matter is pikmin jumping off into the abyss and tether deciding it doesnt want to work today

Olimar probably isn't as low as I put him to be fair, but I'd have to see some tournament proof.

 

[Ningildo]

The list is meant to be general thought. The middle tier is pretty up in the air.

For Roy specifically it's not true that he can get get 0 to death'd easily. There are far more characters that are easier to combo.

Like? Seriously, examples, reasons, SOMETHING. I might come off as a bit aggressive from the general tone of these posts, but I can relate to damn near anything provided it's back up by logic. Putting Olimar at E (too low btw, it's a bit hard to play as him at times (mainly due spacies), but really, one Uthrow/Dthrow is all Oli needs to go into a Usmash/Uair combo that has the potential to 0-death a fair part of the cast and gimp other characters with a Fair finish) without (good) reasoning (or any other character for that matter) is not gonna sit well with me (Olimar main bias, but still..)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why haven't we seen more Yoshis? IMO he was (once played with technical prowess like Amsa's) rivalling Peach on the tier list -- the main things that pushed him down were the required technicality and just general weirdness of how he plays. From what I've seen, he's dramatically buffed in PM in addition to being able to jump oos, and probably way underrated in most tier lists, including mine.

Dude's got disgusting shield pressure, a goddamn command grab, DJC aerials, a solid combo game, good reach, and great finishers. Yet we see no yoshis.

??????????????

 

[Foo]

Why haven't we seen more Yoshis? IMO he was (once played with technical prowess like Amsa's) rivalling Peach on the tier list -- the main things that pushed him down were the required technicality and just general weirdness of how he plays. From what I've seen, he's dramatically buffed in PM in addition to being able to jump oos, and probably way underrated in most tier lists, including mine.

Dude's got disgusting shield pressure, a goddamn command grab, DJC aerials, a solid combo game, good reach, and great finishers. Yet we see no yoshis.

??????????????

I think people don't feel he is strong enough to learn his very unique and complicated tech. That and he is just a very odd character, he feels totally different than everyone else, mostly cause of his double jump. I don't think yoshi's lack of players is a viability problem.

 

[DMG]

Yoshi is hard to play and his shield doesn't work properly. Interest in character waning until 3.5

People also tend to value only his positives, and don't think about how stuff like footstools might screw him over