Tier List Speculation

[Vashimus]

Defensive characters in fighters often have polarizing matchups? Holy ****, what a revelation.

 

[Oracle]

@ Frost | Odds denti would poop in your mouth with his secondaries who even are you

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Oh ****, this is turning into Odds vs Texas

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link's neutral game isn't that good

I might have to punch you

 

[DMG]

I don't know how this conversation evolved, but LOOK! Ivysaur is clearly the root from which all wickedness branches from. The answer is clear: we must eliminate Ivysaur

 

[MasterBlu]

Hey man, if you want to create your own tier list, go to www.eventhubs.com , you'll be able to rate the individual match-ups for each character, and you'll be able to save your results and compare the other characters! Check it out!

Thank You for showing me this. For the mean time this will do so I can at least put input on the characters i am sure about. Once my list feels ready I will post it for you guys to speculate (and ZSS may end up be higher than I think who knows?) Additionally, what I think could be good is for someone to compile data on maybe 100 (or more) different people's full lists and some reasoning here on Smashboards so that an accurate community list maybe be made not from eventhub as anyone can choose anything. Something Smashboards can call it own tierlist would be nice.

 

[_Chrome]

Thank You for showing me this. For the mean time this will do so I can at least put input on the characters i am sure about. Once my list feels ready I will post it for you guys to speculate (and ZSS may end up be higher than I think who knows?) Additionally, what I think could be good is for someone to compile data on maybe 100 (or more) different people's full lists and some reasoning here on Smashboards so that an accurate community list maybe be made not from eventhub as anyone can choose anything. Something Smashboards can call it own tierlist would be nice.

This sounds like a gameplan! I like your style. Nice prof pic by the way. Feel free to direct message me with your speculations/ideas on any tier lists you have. Have fun!

 

[_Chrome]

I think some people couldn't catch 'em all.

 

[InfinityCollision]

3.5 will be out in a matter of months at most, there's not a whole lot of point in getting any sort of "official" list out right now.

I don't know how this conversation evolved

Somebody didn't press B.

 

[CyberZixx]

For real. Bulbasaur and it's evolutions are clearly the worst of the gen 1 starters.

 

[_Chrome]

Pokémon aside... (they're all cool and good, besides it's just Pokémon)
Back to Smash Bros.

 

[MLGF]

3.5 could be out in a month, but I think we'll find out more soon.
Big House had a big announcement before, so I kinda expect that again.

Or maybe I'm just a crazy pattern worshipper, we'll find out.

 

[FreeGamer]

Am I crazy to expect another December release?

 

[InfinityCollision]

I suspect they'll try to beat the Wii U release on Smash 4, but I could see it coming a little later if they feel the additional time is needed.

What I'm trying to say is that it could go either way man.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I really need access to debug mode
Why was it not made available for 3.0
And the current standard of the huge as **** stage list is killing me, yet everybody in my region is more than willing to reduce the stock count to save time instead of reduce the stage list. So I'm gonna need PMBRDT to hurry up with that new release and be sure to include a not ****ty stage set-up too.
And also I need to see if JCz has gained any competence or insight into how ROB needs to be adjusted. 'Cause afaik he barely even plays now and never consults other ROB mains, even oracle, but seems to be under the impression that he knows what changes ROB needs.

 

[JesteRace]

TKBreezy's new stage list is pretty legit. I think people would be down with that

 

[Vashimus]

For real. Bulbasaur and it's evolutions are clearly the worst of the gen 1 starters.

**** you, Venusaur was my homie.

TKBreezy's new stage list is pretty legit. I think people would be down with that

There are 3 medium sized starters in TK Breezy's stage list, so if a character likes medium sized stages you will almost certainly start on one.

FD being counterpick is also BS. If you don't want to play on FD, you can always ban it in the initial bans. There's no reason to make it a counterpick.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Am I the only person who is not ok with TKBreezy's list?
People compain about Skyworld and Dracula's being too big, but somehow Dream Land isn't complained about? Especially Skyworld. Dracula's is understandable, but Dreamland is bigger than Skyworld afaik.

Also lol norfair.

 

[MLGF]

I'm trying to push for the TK breezy stage list at some weeklies now and have recieved no complaints.
It's good.

Still never get green hill though... Ike probs.

 

[kevinw0w]

If you don't play exclusively Ivy, you naturally wouldn't be included in the callout. I can respect a Zard.

Thanks <3

Toon Link's neutral game isn't that good (he's all about the punish), but otherwise, sure. At least some of these characters, though, have weaknesses commensurate with their neutral games -- the fastfallers all get combo'd to hell, Fox and Falco require orders of magnitude more technical skill than most chars on that list, and Sanic gets rused by anyone with good lingering hitboxes.

Of course, most of these characters are in exactly the same category as Ivy, in terms of having ridiculous neutral and gimp games, and no real weaknesses. Mario, Diddy, Link, Mewtwo, Pit, and MK are all stupid OP now - the only difference is, I don't have half of Smashboards dogpiling me over thinking that those characters are busted (anymore).

I don't agree with your TL assessment at all. I've seen a fair amount of Lunchables vs Denti and I do think TL has good tools in neutral against Ivy. Ivy's combination of weight and fall-speed actually makes her pretty combo-able by quite a few characters: mario, falcon, DK, sheik, marth, lucas, etc. I'm also of the opinion that tech skill requirement should not be factored into roster balance. Spacies don't deserve to be top tier because they're harder to play IMO. I think all 6 characters you listed are a cut above Ivy, but even they have weaknesses - even if they're not as obvious or prominent as other characters'.

That's the only time she can lose, yes. She doesn't necessarily lose the MU if that happens.

Some of the tools are punishable by some characters. Others have literally no way of ever getting in. You don't play any such characters, so it's not surprising that you'd have no idea what that's like.

I think I have a decent spread of matchup experience and I honestly just think this is a gross exaggeration on your part.

nair->utilt -> anything -> anything -> anything -> gimp or upb -> death
fair -> anything ... -> death
throw -> upb (if you win the coin toss, or 100% if you're against a fatty)
nair -> grab -> anything -> death
uair/dair -> juggles -> death
dair -> loldeath
offstage bair -> loldeath

etc

I've labbed this stuff myself, and have no problems 0-deathing many characters with a pokemon that I don't even play. If you're having that much difficulty, maybe Smash isn't your game.

"autocombos" as a whole have been a major complaint about PM. I don't think Ivy's combo game is too good relative to the rest of the cast or as "braindead" as you'd like to claim. The strings that you listed are pretty vague and I could formulate the same thing for plenty of other characters.

I can maintain over-50%, sometimes near-100% powershielding rates against most projectiles in the game. Razor Leaf is by far the most difficult one to powershield due to the weird way its hitbox moves around. In addition, when it's shielded, it continues hitting the fatty, allowing Ivy to get a completely free grab pretty much regardless of how far away she is. Most other projectiles have fairly limited shieldstun even if they're not pshielded.

It's only one instance, but one of my regular training partners is a DK main named Chandy and powershields my razor leafs with almost perfect consistency, so I'm not sure what to tell you. If the RL hits your shield you can still buffer a roll away. Ivy's also pretty slow so a grab is not at all guaranteed.

A little. Heh.

No, but being completely safe while throwing out your best kill move against someone on a platform is exclusive to Ivy and Marth -- and Marth has weaknesses.

Of course it's not exclusive to Ivy. The problem with Ivy isn't just any one thing - it's that the sum of her parts is absolutely ludicrous in most matchups - much like Mario or Mewtwo.

If you're not capable of throwing out the fair or dair before the guy edgeguarding you is able to get his move out, Smash probably isn't your game. There's a very limited time window where Ivy can be edgeguarded by most characters, and covering yourself with a fair is indeed completely braindead.

Ivy has plenty of weaknesses too, some of which you've already admitted. Besides, it's still possible to punish the up-b, especially if you shield drop - there's over 20 frames of cooldown.

In no particular order

Losing matchups:
Mewtwo
Pit
Probably Fox (Though Fox has to know *exactly* what to do in the MU and not mess up ever)
Sonic
MK
Diddy

Even matchups:
Falco - though I'm inclined to think Falco loses, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Wolf? He might win this MU due to his air speed + dash attack + shield pressure.
Lucas - probably
I could see cases being made for Pikachu and Squirtle, but I lack much experience with them
Possibly Mario

Invalidating Matchups (if you lose to these, congratulations on winning lifetime admission to handicapped parking spaces)
-Bowser
-D3
-Jigglypuff
-Ganondork
-Probably Wario (though I'm not nearly as sure about this one. It could be as close as 70:30, but I doubt it)

Winning Matchups: pretty much everything else (though I probably overlooked some)
- This includes Kirby, who can't actually ever get in on Ivy, and, I repeat, does not have a chaingrab on her at any sort of meaningfully early %.

I think Ivy loses a lot more matchups than that lol...
Mewtwo, Pit, Fox, Falco, Sonic, MK, Diddy, Squirtle, Kirby, Wolf, Lucas, Marth, Sheik, and Link imo. I can explain any of these if you need me to. All of those characters you listed bar Wario have some pretty polarizing matchups and 3 of them can be agreed upon by almost anyone to be bottom tier in this iteration of PM. I don't see it as much of a problem with Ivy as much as PM's roster balance as a whole.

I actually have quite a bit of Kirby experience as G-Rabbit is in my local scene and we play pretty much every week. Side cutter beats RL, dash attack esp. off of platforms is very safe, and he has the tools to edgeguard Ivy better than the majority of the cast. Just because you can't recreate it yourself, doesn't mean the chaingrab doesn't exist. It starts at 40% and is inescapable if executed correctly. Ivy (or insert other floaty character)'s only real option is to DI towards either ledge, eventually forcing Kirby to select a followup option other than a regrab - this includes fsmash or upsmash.

Uh, I was pretty explicitly referring only to the two mentioned. Though I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ivy's playstyle attracted people who tended to have little or no smash fundamentals/ skills applicable to other characters, obviously making such a strong claim generally would be idiotic.

Zigzagoon/Denti, if you're reading this, invite is open for a $20 bo5 MM: any of your secondaries vs one of mine. I'm open to being proven wrong.

I can't speak for Zigzagoon, but Denti was a top brawl olimar and has played other characters in the past. I think Oracle has already got it covered as well rofl.

I never claimed that any of this was exclusive to Ivy.

I'm sorry that it irritates you, but the simple fact is nobody else is doing it, and there are legitimate balance complaints to be made. If nobody starts the discussion, it doesn't happen. If we're going to get a balanced game at any point in the future, these unpleasant discussions have to happen. Sorry for being the bearer of bad news, I guess.

I suppose that's what this thread is for. Having this discussion is perfectly fine, although I do wish you would refrain from speaking in absolutes or attacking others/myself personally.

 

[Rᴏb]

I don't know how good TK's stage list is, but I do know that it is boring as **** to watch.

 

[Foo]

I like TK's stage list a lot, especially norfair. Not really because it is "good," but because it's a good step towards a great stage list. First, I think the previous stage rules of "bottom is neutral, middle is counter" is really really bad, and we need to start creating stage lists much different from that. Secondly, even though I don't think the modded norfair is a great stage, I really like the idea of having modded stages becoming a thing. There are so many stages in PM that are so close to being good, but have some really dumb aspects to them. (i.e., lylat would be pretty cool if the edges weren't slanted and the ledge wasn't so thin)

 

[Frost | Odds]

I might have to punch you

Heh. Tink's neutral is good - but it's not broken, which is what you need to compete with character like M2 or Ivysaur. (Unless you're just as good of a player as Lunchables)

Since I'm inevitably gonna get ganged up on again by the entirety of Smashboards if I say anything else re: Ivy, I'll let it rest. If she doesn't get serious fixes, remember in 8 months that I told you so.

@ Frost | Odds denti would poop in your mouth with his secondaries who even are you

Someone with a semblance of actual melee/pm fundamentals. The callout stands. Still open to being proven wrong, though I don't know if/when I'll ever be able to make it to a national :/

 

[DrinkingFood]

TK's list is bad and if you are a TO using that list you should feel bad for being lazy and not coming up with a better list and just printing out some ****ing sheets for your set-ups telling people what stages are what.

 

[DMG]

I dunno what makes you (odds) think Denti doesn't have Melee/PM fundamentals. He had been doing a lot of Melee recently, and considered dropping PM entirely and just monstering Melee instead (before Smash 4 came out). I was literally in his room when he burned, YES LIT ON FIRE, his SD card for PM lol. If you know anything about Denti, you would know that he tends to get pretty good at Smash games after putting time into them. He already had a decent chunk into Melee, definitely less than Brawl or PM but he was/is getting there.


I'm not sure what warranted the callout, but like I know the guy. I've been in his room, played him at tournaments, I'VE EVEN SEEN HIM PLAY NON-SMASH GAMES (!!!!!!!!!!). Have you seen him play non-smash games? I don't think you have, and that's probably because *cough you don't know the guy cough*

 

[trash?]

I don't know y'all, I don't think I should trust one of the most fundamentally solid regions in all of america w/r/t smash over a man who is very angry about a flower dinosaur

 

[Kati]

What do you mean burn?? D:

 

[DMG]

Kati, the literal definition of the word. He pulled out a lighter and lit it up. It burned, stuff went into the air, it smelled like burning plastic and 12 health violations.

 

[TreK]

It's only one instance, but one of my regular training partners is a DK main named Chandy and powershields my razor leafs with almost perfect consistency, so I'm not sure what to tell you. If the RL hits your shield you can still buffer a roll away. Ivy's also pretty slow so a grab is not at all guaranteed.

It should be said though, that DK has one of the best perfect shields in the game.
Chandy's still a beast tho <3

Also I don't think that RL is that vulnerable to reflection because it's a decelerating projectile : Ivysaur aims it so that it hits you with the slow part, but if you reflect that slow part, it's going to be slow when reflected. Meaning it won't travel back to Ivysaur. The only advantage to doing it imo is that it makes Ivysaur unable to shoot another one for a little while.

(I really want perfect shield to be buffed, it takes a lot of skill, is very hype, and should be rewarded more appropriately imo. But back to tier discussions :V)

 

[Jacob29]

I don't know why TKBreezy had to go and make a stage list.

I thought after one of the complaints of melee being small stage list people would welcome a much larger one.

PS1 needs to be removed though, or banning one PS bans them both.

 

[TreK]

^ I agree 100%

In TKB's stagelist, they fixed PS1 but then moved it to page 2 which nobody ever uses, so I simply don't get it.
That fixed PS1 looks legit though

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I don't think I should trust one of the most fundamentally solid regions in all of america w/r/t smash

You must be mistaken, they aren't talking about SoCal.

 

[MLGF]

TK's list is bad and if you are a TO using that list you should feel bad for being lazy and not coming up with a better list and just printing out some ****ing sheets for your set-ups telling people what stages are what.

Right, I'll use the official DrinkingFood stage list next time.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I dunno what makes you (odds) think Denti doesn't have Melee/PM fundamentals. He had been doing a lot of Melee recently, and considered dropping PM entirely and just monstering Melee instead (before Smash 4 came out). I was literally in his room when he burned, YES LIT ON FIRE, his SD card for PM lol. If you know anything about Denti, you would know that he tends to get pretty good at Smash games after putting time into them. He already had a decent chunk into Melee, definitely less than Brawl or PM but he was/is getting there.

His playstyle just looks like 100% gimmicks in PM.

That's interesting, though. Just watched a vid of his Jigglypuff, and it looks damn fine. I'm impressed. I was in error re: the man's fundamentals, though the MM offer stands should we ever meet and he wish to embarrass me. I still don't think he's deserved a single win he's gotten against Sethlon, but hell, I don't think anybody is better than Sethlon.

+Respect for using Puff, she has a rough life

 

[steelguttey]

the eventhubs tier list is **** because it takes EVERYONES opinions in and nobody cares about xXdArKsHaDoWsXx opinions

 

[Blank Mauser]

Personally I think everyone thinks everyone is fraudulent in PM, because its relatively easy.

This is the way I see it though. If you can beat some of the best players in the world with "gimmicks" and "lack of fundamentals" now, just think of how godly you will be when you actually learn to play.

Also we all have access to the same game and the same characters so...no johns?

 

[Ogopogo]

Kirby wins by far. My bro who plays Kirby (with bias) agrees that the MU is at least 60% (being generous to Ivysaur), 65% or 70% being more accurate........Kirby's tech chase off the down throw is great.

Kirby's dthrow is almost a guaranteed chaingrab on Ivy, idk what percent but probably high enough for a usmash to finish the job.

Of course it shouldn't be easy for Kirby to get in with Ivy's hitboxes far outranging his own, but if he gets in, big punishes.

 

[shairn]

Kirby chaingrabs Ivy from 25 to 70-80% then usmashes and Ivy's ded on a lot of stages.

 

[jtm94]

The problem is the top row of stages needs to be teams stages so doubles isn't a complete joke on stages like FoD, Battlefield, Warioware, Green Hill. A lot of the time bigger stages are chosen, but stages unviable for teams still exist and make it look terrible.

The new Norfair is >>>>> Old Norfair. IT does reward camping a bit much, the platforms go up pretty high and you can just chill on top and bop anyone coming at you... you see them from a mile away. The blast zones are also rather large. I think it's one of the best teams stages, but it's a little big for singles.(area wise)

My area doesn't do anything standard. There is THE WORST list here. Yoshi's being neutral, Dreamland still neutral, FD neutral, as well as Skyworld and Skyloft being on the list with no Warioware or Green Hill.... I honestly like Green Hill because it has a high ceiling and close sides like FoD without the dumb plats. I guess Warioware is super small, but the platform layout is amazing.

 

[Vashimus]

@ Frost | Odds I'm sure we'd all love to see footage of you playing against good players if your Smash fundamentals are so impeccable. By all means, record yourself playing games and enlighten us. Doesn't even have to be in tournament, doesn't even have to be high quality video; just clips of you playing against competent players. Denti doesn't have to prove anything, the burden is on you.

I don't even mean disrespect, just genuinely curious.