Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

True enough. Real talk, footstools ruin ROB's day too.

 

[Cpt.]

Revamped a bit with some reasoning. Could use some help/input though. I'll work on it more tomorrow (later today)

S Tier:
0 - Death Combos, Shield Pressure, Recovery Mix Ups, ^ Smash/Throw (Pink Fresh, Neon)

A+ Tier:
Tail Hitbox, Quick Aerials, Teleport Attacks, Recovery, Woop, Easy Mode Combos, Edge Guardian (Emukiller, M2K, Smash God, Frozen)
Wave Dash Bananas, Crazy Recovery, Hard to Punish Recovery, Hard to Approach, Hazards (Boss, Seagull Joe)
Amazing Approach, Amazing Recovery, Good Neutral, Great Combos, Gimps w/ Cape (Boss, M2K)
Gimps, Carries Enemies to Blast Zones, Best Ranged Attack (Armada, Zero)

A Tier:
Nearly Impossible to Approach, Amazing Ranged Attacks, Tether
Crazy Gimps, Too Fast

B+ Tier:
Easy Gimps/Edge Guard
Strong Neutral, Great Approach, Great Shield Pressure
Fast and Strong, Great Shield Pressure
Hard to Approach, Recovers from Almost Anywhere, Hazards

B Tier:
Missile Spam, Mode Change, Tether
Hard to Approach, Great Aerials, Great Recovery, Edge Guardian
The New Glass Canon, Hard to Punish Recovery

C+ Tier:
PSI Fire Combos, Poor Recovery
Huge Hitboxes, Good Recovery
Best Spike, Terrible Recovery, Good Neutral
Good Recovery, Projectiles
Fast and Not Weak, Stun Combos
Decent Recovery, Hard to Predict Movement

C Tier:
Fast and Strong, Bad Recovery
Good Recovery, Hazards
Fox w/o ^ Air
Good Potential, Good Combos, No Good Player
Good Edge Guards, Good Recovery, Dies Easy
Good Combos, Strong and Fast, Bad Recovery

C- Tier:






D Tier:








E Tier:
Combo Food

Failure Tier:

No Wobbles, Derpy Nana

 

[SpiderMad]

Nana should supposedly be less derpy than Melee from Brawl's apparently better Nana AI

Oh wait a second, Sheik in D tier aey

 

[Ripple]

guys.....what if Ics could hit taunt and then immediately switch places with each other. Popo becomes nana and vice versa. Imagine how cool and good they now become. @ DMG

 

[jtm94]

Yoshi is VERY good, but no one plays him. Most characters are VERY good. Even the bad ones. No one knows though, no one knows anything.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Peach is so completely meh in PM. She already had losing matchups vs other top tier in melee and now everyone is buffed to Fox's level. You can tell something is up when Jigglypuff is bottom tier, Marth is mid tier, and Fox isn't the most unquestionably broken character. I'd argue for Peach buffs but really we just need carpet bomb nerfs on like,
.
When you buff everyone to broken-tier it might be balanced in one sense, but it turns into a mess of polarized matchups.

 

[Blank Mauser]

DMG is the only person in this thread who actually understands what fundamentals are

 

[1FD]

Samus Zair is terrible design WHEN it's with the rest of her kit


Peach is just polarizing when stuff like disjoints and projectiles hurt her quite-a-bit then literally nothing else in the entire game even phases her.
It's like disjoints for coverage? +1
Solid projectile coverage? +1
Neither? 0 AT BEST and probably -1 because she can handle everything else SO WELL
And chances are even if you have a +1 it really only makes it 0 if you aren't already super solid everywhere else and can be exploited by peachboxes
Sheik gets hit way harder but her speed + hitbox combo (not individually) makes her go even in a lot of things and/or can actually win with that if she can abuse it enough.


eventhubseventhubseventhubs takeashottakeashottakeashot

Like? Seriously, examples, reasons, SOMETHING. I might come off as a bit aggressive from the general tone of these posts, but I can relate to damn near anything provided it's back up by logic. Putting Olimar at E (too low btw, it's a bit hard to play as him at times (mainly due spacies), but really, one Uthrow/Dthrow is all Oli needs to go into a Usmash/Uair combo that has the potential to 0-death a fair part of the cast and gimp other characters with a Fair finish) without (good) reasoning (or any other character for that matter) is not gonna sit well with me (Olimar main bias, but still..)

He's got a pretty direct and simple game that's utterly beastly but it's still direct and simple
Like Marth but different
Effective but again just like Marth he has to be literally game-winning WITHIN that simple game and he doesn't break it like the simplicity of Sonic/Fox/etc, and is more like Marth/Jiggs-style with that.

I think people don't feel he is strong enough to learn his very unique and complicated tech. That and he is just a very odd character, he feels totally different than everyone else, mostly cause of his double jump. I don't think yoshi's lack of players is a viability problem.

This sounds exactly like Lucas stuff too but without as much of the -doesn't-feel-as-strong- thing and I guess that's why it took so long for Lucas to be a regular force despite obvious brokeness too (still haven't seen a good -many-different-characters- happening in popular spots but it's creeping in steadily)
It's probs cause people like bamesy don't go travelling anymore that people think characters like yoshi/luigi/lucas/mewtwo/pika/wolf/wario/sonic/zss and almost everyone WEIRD or whatever are a lot worse than they really are for WAY longer than they should be. I gotta kick that scrub onto the road to a highly populated venu sometime.
My tier list (and the list of anyone who is familiar with someone like that) looks ****ed up for a very legit reason.


On top of that, when something like dat smash exists as a thread, and anyone from scrubs to literally the top level melee and pm players still gain insight from any discussions with him, and can (probably) still compete with the top 5 (or win again) despite not playing for half-years at a time, I think there's only one person I trust when it comes to fundamentals, and more importantly SMASH as a whole.

In fact I've only ever seen one person describe smash in its literal sense. The game of not getting hit by the things you don't want to get hit by while hitting people with the things you want to him them with.

Break anything down to its bones in any part (I think he uses words like aspect and awareness but I don't know them well enough to use them like him) of LIFE, and wonders happen. What is as it is without interpretation brings freedom from what is.
Just give attention to where attention goes. It's amazing how the mind can be tuned, tamed, and sharpened, smash is no exception from this insanely prioritizing aspect that goes seemingly unattended in conventional activity. Action is to be attentive, to reincarnate now.
What am I even doing on smashboards I have all I need for guruage in my neighbhood
It's late and I just re-watched some of legend of korra season 3 with a couple friends who were watching it for the first time after talking about mental disposition for 5 hours
Imma hybernate see you in 3.5

 

[Player -0]

Yoshi is hard to play and his shield doesn't work properly. Interest in character waning until 3.5

People also tend to value only his positives, and don't think about how stuff like footstools might screw him over

Yoshi can do a rising Nair or something to circumvent this right?

Then it just becomes a 50/50 between footstool or other.

 

[Foo]

eventhubseventhubseventhubs takeashottakeashottakeashot

Silly you, it has to be linked, not just mentioned. FTFY

Also, I think Yoshi is a lot weirder than lucas overall. One of the things that pull people away from yoshi is that his recover is ONLY double jump, air dodge, egg roll. Lucas, on the other hand, plays a lot like a spacy in a way, just with some jank techs. If you play lucas without all of his jankness, he's still an ok character and doesn't play very differently. Yoshi, however, feels like he's from a totally different game.

 

[Cpt.]

Revamped some more. C Tier and Below Need Some Feedback

S Tier:
0 - Death Combos, Shield Pressure, Recovery Mix Ups, ^ Smash/Throw (Pink Fresh, Neon)

A+ Tier:
Tail Hitbox, Quick Aerials, Teleport Attacks, Recovery, Woop, Easy Mode Combos, Edge Guardian (Emukiller, M2K, Smash God, Frozen)
Wave Dash Bananas, Crazy Recovery, Hard to Punish Recovery, Hard to Approach, Hazards (Boss, Seagull Joe)
Amazing Approach, Amazing Recovery, Good Neutral, Great Combos, Gimps w/ Cape (Boss, M2K)
Gimps, Carries Enemies to Blast Zones, Best Ranged Attack (Armada, Zero)

A Tier:
Nearly Impossible to Approach, Amazing Ranged Attacks, Tether (Lazarond)
Crazy Gimps, Too Fast (Wizzrobe)

B+ Tier:
Easy Gimps/Edge Guard (K9)
Strong Neutral, Great Approach, Great Shield Pressure (Chillin)
Fast and Strong, Great Shield Pressure (Everyone???)
Hard to Approach, Recovers from Almost Anywhere, Hazards (Rolex, Prof. Pro)

B Tier:
Missile Spam, Mode Change, Tether (Esam)
Hard to Approach, Great Aerials, Great Recovery, Edge Guardian (Denti)
The New Glass Canon, Hard to Punish Recovery (Sethlon)

C+ Tier:
PSI Fire Combos, Poor Recovery (Awestin, Reslived)
Huge Hitboxes, Good Recovery (DJ Nintendo)
Best Spike, Terrible Recovery, Good Neutral
Good Recovery, Projectiles (Lunchables)
Fast and Not Weak, Stun Combos (Oro)
Decent Recovery, Hard to Predict Movement (Strong Bad, Coney)

C Tier:
Fast and Strong, Bad Recovery
Good Recovery, Hazards (Zhime, KDJ)
Fox w/o ^ Air (Esam)
Good Potential, Good Combos, No Good Player (Amsa)
Good Edge Guards, Good Recovery, Dies Easy (Chudat)
Good Combos, Strong and Fast, Bad Recovery (Strong Bad)

C- Tier:
Priority, Wave Dash, Bad Up B
Poor Recovery, F Smash, Edge Guard (Sora)
Turnips, Edge Guard, D Smash, Side B, Combo Food
Priority, Bad BAir (Strong Bad)
Punishable Recovery, Good Projectiles, Ok Hazard, UAir
Poor Recovery, Good Edge Guard (Hat)

D Tier:
Good Potential, Good Edge Guard, Hard to Maneuver
Good Combos, Combo Food, Neutral B
Good Punishes, Good Combos, Easy to Edge Guard
Bad Neutral B, Crouch Cancel Armor, Up B, Bad Neutral Game
Starts Weak and Gets Strong, Bad Recovery, Good Shielding, Too Slow
Good Combos, Eggs, Terrible Recovery, Poor Down Special

E Tier:
Combo Food, No Chain Grabs, Decent Hazards

Failure Tier:
Just Not Melee
No Wobbles, Derpy Nana

 

[_Chrome]

Revamped some more. C Tier and Below Need Some Feedback

S Tier:
0 - Death Combos, Shield Pressure, Recovery Mix Ups, ^ Smash/Throw (Pink Fresh, Neon)

A+ Tier:
Tail Hitbox, Quick Aerials, Teleport Attacks, Recovery, Woop, Easy Mode Combos, Edge Guardian (Emukiller, M2K, Smash God, Frozen)
Wave Dash Bananas, Crazy Recovery, Hard to Punish Recovery, Hard to Approach, Hazards (Boss, Seagull Joe)
Amazing Approach, Amazing Recovery, Good Neutral, Great Combos, Gimps w/ Cape (Boss, M2K)
Gimps, Carries Enemies to Blast Zones, Best Ranged Attack (Armada, Zero)

A Tier:
Nearly Impossible to Approach, Amazing Ranged Attacks, Tether
Crazy Gimps, Too Fast (Wizzrobe)

B+ Tier:
Easy Gimps/Edge Guard (K9)
Strong Neutral, Great Approach, Great Shield Pressure (Chillin)
Fast and Strong, Great Shield Pressure
Hard to Approach, Recovers from Almost Anywhere, Hazards (Rolex, Prof. Pro)

B Tier:
Missile Spam, Mode Change, Tether (Esam)
Hard to Approach, Great Aerials, Great Recovery, Edge Guardian (Denti)
The New Glass Canon, Hard to Punish Recovery (Sethlon)

C+ Tier:
PSI Fire Combos, Poor Recovery (Awestin, Reslived)
Huge Hitboxes, Good Recovery (DJ Nintendo)
Best Spike, Terrible Recovery, Good Neutral
Good Recovery, Projectiles (Lunchables)
Fast and Not Weak, Stun Combos (Oro)
Decent Recovery, Hard to Predict Movement (Coney)

C Tier:
Fast and Strong, Bad Recovery
Good Recovery, Hazards (Zhime, KDJ)
Fox w/o ^ Air (Esam)
Good Potential, Good Combos, No Good Player (Amsa)
Good Edge Guards, Good Recovery, Dies Easy (Chudat)
Good Combos, Strong and Fast, Bad Recovery (Strong Bad)

C- Tier:
Priority, Wave Dash, Bad Up B
Poor Recovery, F Smash, Edge Guard (Sora)
Turnips, Edge Guard, D Smash, Side B, Combo Food
Priority, Bad BAir (Strong Bad)
Punishable Recovery, Good Projectiles, Ok Hazard, UAir
Poor Recovery, Good Edge Guard (Hat)

D Tier:
Good Potential, Good Edge Guard, Hard to Maneuver
Good Combos, Combo Food, Neutral B
Good Punishes, Good Combos, Easy to Edge Guard
Bad Neutral B, Crouch Cancel Armor, Up B, Bad Neutral Game
Starts Weak and Gets Strong, Bad Recovery, Good Shielding, Too Slow
Good Combos, Eggs, Terrible Recovery, Poor Down Special

E Tier:
Combo Food, No Chain Grabs, Decent Hazards

Failure Tier:
Just Not Melee
No Wobbles, Derpy Nana

I understand the personal bias, but what about Falco? Seriously, I believe he's better than Fox in this game because of his unescapable combos and his laser which forces just about every character to approach, and then he can shoot another laser to go in after they fall for his inevitable trap. Falco can then start an auto combo with his shine on most characters.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Right, I'll use the official DrinkingFood stage list next time.

I have one
Starters: GHZ, SV, YS, DL, PS2
Counterpicks: Lylat, WW, FD, FoD BF
1 ban, none for 3/5
Can always strike any extreme attribute from the starter's list, to avoid favoring any character archetype

 

[_Chrome]

I have one
Starters: GHZ, SV, YS, DL, PS2
Counterpicks: Lylat, WW, FD, FoD
1 ban, none for 3/5
Can always strike any extreme attribute from the starter's list, to avoid favoring any character archetype

Where is Battlefield? I would make that a starter over Yoshi's Story. On a side note, how come no Yoshi's Island (Brawl) or Skyworld, but Lylat is there? Since Lylat is there, I would add Yoshi's Island and Skyworld.

 

[Cpt.]

I understand the personal bias, but what about Falco? Seriously, I believe he's better than Fox in this game because of his unescapable combos and his laser which forces just about every character to approach, and then he can shoot another laser to go in after they fall for his inevitable trap. Falco can then start an auto combo with his shine on most characters.

Well remember tier lists are based on tournament wins and how good the characters are. Fox has more PM wins by far (I haven't even seen a Falco player win a tourney). It's no doubt that Falco is a good character, but one of the things that makes him only average is his recovery, which is super important in the current meta game. Lucas, Pit, Mewtwo, Mario, Diddy, Tink etc. can recover from pretty much anywhere and Falco can't recover. Plus Falco's lasers only do 1 damage on average.

I can see him going up to B tier at most, but I would have to see some tourney wins with the character.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Herp forgot BF is there now
Lylat is there because it fills a niche of heavy platform coverage but with no high platforms. YiB does no fit that because of the ghosts being random and **** the flyguys too

 

[Strong Badam]

Dang my Wario doesn't matter anymore but my G&W does

Yolo

 

[steelguttey]

10/10 post

 

[Cpt.]

Dang my Wario doesn't matter anymore but my G&W does

Yolo

Oh haha sorry I forgot you played Wario since I didn't see you use him at Guts. Pls don't be Strong Mad at me.

 

[Soft Serve]

Theres so much obvious MDVA/east coast bias in some of these lists lol (particularly listing the players). If you don't have any idea of what the potential of a character is and cant think of anyone who plays it, theres a handy thread by KayB that sort of compiles tournament matches of top players for each character and stayed constantly updated. Some regions don't have players that bring out a characters potential but that doesn't mean there aren't players that do.

Yeah, I'm just gonna make a habit of ignoring trolls and children.

We now return to your regularly scheduled tier-listing.
No idea what I've posted tierlist-wise earlier in the thread, but this looks about right.
Raptor Jesus Tier:
Turkey Jesus Tier:
Damn Solid Tier:
Mediocre Once Opponent Figures Them Out Tier:
Has Some Problems Tier:
Has Some Major Problems Probably Fixed in 3.5 Tier:
Fired From Walmart Tier:
Fix Pls, No Bias Tier:

I'm really unsure of where Peach, D3, and Ness end up. We don't really have any great local players of any of them (our Melee peaches don't really play her in PM), so I'm unsure of how they've changed from melee/how strong D3 actually is.

D3 is just so weird. >=[

@ Frost | Odds I'll respond to your list because you at least like to have real discussions lol.
I 100% agree with your top 2 tiers, and can't really complain about the 3rd. I just have a few questions I'd like to get your opinion on:
Ike and Ness. What do you think is mediocre about them once people get a hang of the MU? They don't really have anything gimmicky that they have to rely on. All their options are solid; You cant really disrespect PK fires and just ignore them, Ness has great burst mobility and had his Dash-dance and air mobility game buffed going into 3.0 so he is very mobile. Ike is always threatening, and again I don't see what there is to figure out about Him, he's fast and has huge disjoints. You also can't "figure out" what do to about his burst mobility on side-b, its always threatening and isn't something you can just brush off. He does have some polarizing MU's and can struggle to get in on a campy player, but thats nothing that characters placed above him (Marth, yoshi, Falcon, DK, ZSS) don't have.

I'm also very curious about what major problems Roy has that Marth wouldn't have that qualify him to be placed in the bottom 5 characters.

 

[Player -0]

Why isn't Anther listed for Pika? Also Axe plays P:M Pika occassionally. That's kind of besides the point though because we have the Top Character thread.

 

[Deleted member]

DMG is the only person in this thread who actually understands what fundamentals are

what a jerk!

 

[Phan7om]

Guys I'm making a tier list just for the hell of it, what do u guys think?

High
Characters I see being used a lot on vgbc by good players who know how to use their strengths and hide their weaknesses. They always win tourneys and tier lists are based strictly off tourney results, not their tools or anything. There is a lot of good footage of them. Everyone says they're good so they must be, cuz I can't beat them.

Mid
Characters that I think are good but isn't shown to be good on vgbc. I don't know much about how good these characters are so Ima list them randomly based on personal bias and what I have trouble against, cuz that's how tier lists work. Or people think my character is broken or garbage so I'll put it here to bait a chain of reactions to debate that I know more than u about my character.

Bottom
Characters I don't know jack about, or the are only bad cuz I can't win or adapt with them. There are only 1 or 2 people ever using these characters on vgbc and they lose. Also for my list to look legit I better bandwagon and put these characters here. Buff plz!

 

[steelguttey]

videos of them playing in tournament =/= good people need to know that

 

[_Chrome]

Guys I'm making a tier list just for the hell of it, what do u guys think?

High
Characters I see being used a lot on vgbc by good players who know how to use their strengths and hide their weaknesses. They always win tourneys and tier lists are based strictly off tourney results, not their tools or anything. There is a lot of good footage of them. Everyone says they're good so they must be, cuz I can't beat them.

Mid
Characters that I think are good but isn't shown to be good on vgbc. I don't know much about how good these characters are so Ima list them randomly based on personal bias and what I have trouble against, cuz that's how tier lists work. Or people think my character is broken or garbage so I'll put it here to bait a chain of reactions to debate that I know more than u about my character.

Bottom
Characters I don't know jack about, or the are only bad cuz I can't win or adapt with them. There are only 1 or 2 people ever using these characters on vgbc and they lose. Also for my list to look legit I better bandwagon and put these characters here. Buff plz!

Dude you just nailed a bunch of people's personal tier lists. You get a prize!

Choose your starter:

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds I'll respond to your list because you at least like to have real discussions lol.
I 100% agree with your top 2 tiers, and can't really complain about the 3rd. I just have a few questions I'd like to get your opinion on:
Ike and Ness. What do you think is mediocre about them once people get a hang of the MU?

I can only speak from my current limited experience.

Ike: lack of quick aerial options. Once you get in his space, he can't do a lot about it -- compare to Marth's very strong aerials that come out much more quickly. This seems to make Ike a bit of combo food.

He's also got big hurtboxes and (iirc) not the greatest shield -- this combined with the way his mobility works (much like Luigi's, he's fast but glued to the floor) makes him hurt a bit in the current metagame against the dominant projectile-spammey characters. He's a great, strong character in a vacuum (and imo pretty decent against the characters I play), but not fantastic against the current meta.

I fully expect Ike to be ridiculously strong in 3.5; and may be underestimating him now. That's just what I've seen thus far.

As for Ness, I just don't have much experience with him - it just looks like he suffers from stubby arm syndrome, and probably overdependence on PK Fire. I think he gets outcamped by campy characters, and outrushed by rush characters, and outspaced by spacing characters. I could be wrong. PK fire looks ridiculously easy to spotdodge/powershield, though (for chars that can do so -- rip bowser), it just prob just takes some practice.

They don't really have anything gimmicky that they have to rely on. All their options are solid; You cant really disrespect PK fires and just ignore them, Ness has great burst mobility and had his Dash-dance and air mobility game buffed going into 3.0 so he is very mobile. Ike is always threatening, and again I don't see what there is to figure out about Him, he's fast and has huge disjoints. You also can't "figure out" what do to about his burst mobility on side-b, its always threatening and isn't something you can just brush off. He does have some polarizing MU's and can struggle to get in on a campy player, but thats nothing that characters placed above him (Marth, yoshi, Falcon, DK, ZSS) don't have.

Legit points, about Ike in particular.

I'm also very curious about what major problems Roy has that Marth wouldn't have that qualify him to be placed in the bottom 5 characters.

- Roy's recovery is much worse
- Roy doesn't get nearly as much off of throws. It's very easy for Marth to get tipper fsmashes off of the fthrow/dthrow mixup, and it also sets up a lot of edgeguards for him. Roy gains some positioning, but it doesn't typically open up any combos for him, especially not at higher %'s
- Roy doesn't have much of a relevant edgeguard game, Marth has one of the better ones, and one of the best spikes in the game
- Roy's optimal spacing is closer and just generally worse than Marth's - also awkward for a hurtbox of his size

 

[MasterBlu]

Guys I'm making a tier list just for the hell of it, what do u guys think?

High
Characters I see being used a lot on vgbc by good players who know how to use their strengths and hide their weaknesses. They always win tourneys and tier lists are based strictly off tourney results, not their tools or anything. There is a lot of good footage of them. Everyone says they're good so they must be, cuz I can't beat them.

Mid
Characters that I think are good but isn't shown to be good on vgbc. I don't know much about how good these characters are so Ima list them randomly based on personal bias and what I have trouble against, cuz that's how tier lists work. Or people think my character is broken or garbage so I'll put it here to bait a chain of reactions to debate that I know more than u about my character.

Bottom
Characters I don't know jack about, or the are only bad cuz I can't win or adapt with them. There are only 1 or 2 people ever using these characters on vgbc and they lose. Also for my list to look legit I better bandwagon and put these characters here. Buff plz!

This too good lol. That is exactly how people think haha! You have to admit though, seeing other characters being played by others helps give you an idea of how they could be played and may help realize potential. If you watch TLOC then you will say Roy and Ness are Uber extra high tier because of Sethlon and Awestin

 

[Player -0]

You could argue that Roy gets more conversions than Marth does and combined with the fact that he can kill much more easily especially when a LOT of the current characters can bypass Marth's edgegame by going high.

 

[CyberZixx]

I like playing Roy more in PM for that reasons. Stronger conversions due to dtilt and a better combo game that reliably leads into finishers at a wide range of precents. Marth can't edgegaurd the 3.0 cast very well anyway, so i'd rather the kill power. Roy is more consistent and less frustrating to play than Marth and I know some great players thing he is better than Marth for those reasons.

 

[DMG]

>Is this low tier character better than the other?

>Is Roy better than Marth?

Same question people.

 

[Player -0]

>Is this low tier character better than the other?

>Is Roy better than Marth?

Same question people.

It's better than people crying about Lucas and Mew2 over and over.

 

[Deleted member]

everyone seems to like roy but me. i kinda hate him because it feels like his moves were designed to always work. they're also harder to crouch than they probably should be. it's like he got the mario treatment, except he's not good at everything, but he still feels kinda stupid to play against, imo.

 

[jtm94]

I would put Roy > Marth. He was made to be decent, Marth happened by chance. Why can't I crouch Roy's UpB at 0%?

I hate that crouching got better, and that a lot of the good characters have blatant outs to it. It bothers me that Sonic's goto/onlyusedmovementoption can't be crouched effectively at 0% because the hitbox refreshes so fast you just get dragged with him and can only hope to shield.

 

[shairn]

I would put Roy > Marth. He was made to be decent, Marth happened by chance. Why can't I crouch Roy's UpB at 0%?

While I do agree it's a bit frustrating, if you could CC Roy's upB he'd probably die the moment he gets offstage.

 

[Deleted member]

everyone seems to like roy but me. i kinda hate him because it feels like his moves were designed to always work. they're also harder to crouch than they probably should be. it's like he got the mario treatment, except he's not good at everything, but he still feels kinda stupid to play against, imo.

I just like him because he is a "more consistent marth" to me. He relies on purely knowing fundamentals, over committing gets you ****ed up, but his reward is great and he can actually kill characters at 120 reliably unlike marth. They're both pretty ass offstage, I don't think either one is better or worse in 3.02

Also, "it feels like his moves were designed to always work." What? Isn't that like every single other character thats good in 3.02? He doesn't even get confirmed followups out of his throws, they're DI mixups at later %s.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

So many characters combo like sheik it makes me sad. Autocombos were her thing, you know? That and edgeguarding, and good luck with that against any competent Lucas, diddy, Mario, Mk, pit, m2, etc.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I wouldn't say more campy matches are a strike against her really, as she is naturally that kind of character to begin with and if a peach player gets impatient... well... that says a lot in and of itself really.

Wasn't meant to convey that, only give an example and elaborate on the details of that particular example. I'm not really against campy play in and of itself.

Revamped some more. C Tier and Below Need Some Feedback

S Tier:

Stopped reading there.

 

[InfinityCollision]

edit: double

 

[jtm94]

I never said every other character was/wasn't like that. It was comparing Marth vs Roy. And it's more like every character, not every good character. Bar melee. Sheik was made to do a lot by default though, which is why she's still decent. I feel as though Sheik does well against most all Melee low tiers while I seem to see a lot that think Marth has a problem with lower tiers.

 

[_Chrome]

Do you mean Sheik is outclassed or that the listed characters simply do it better?