Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

The Fox matchup is terrible, Mewtwo and a few others also do well. But there are fewer bad ones than good ones.

Woops. I stand corrected: Ivy definitely loses to M2 (though not really all that badly), but that's hardly worth mentioning anymore.

Fox can definitely beat her, but I don't think there's any reason to think she loses the matchup, any more than Marth does against Fox. I'd think that Meta Knight would be a bit more likely to win that MU due to his own disjoint and speed (for DD camping) and relatively difficulty to gimp.

 

[JOE!]

Ivy is annoying, but my charizard has never gotten bodied by one unless I **** up

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Ivy is annoying, but my charizard has never gotten bodied by one unless I **** up

Charizard OP pls nerf!

 

[TreK]

Ivy vs Charizard is pretty easy tbh. I was THAT close to being the first French player to put *Zen in losers brackets this summer, and let's just say I'm not exactly as good as he is.
His ground speed and his killpower are great assets to have against Ivysaur, but they don't quite make up for the fact that he's a fatty imo.

I still don't understand how Ivy isn't consistently in people's top 10. It's mindboggling.

Ivysaur's top 5 worst matchups are Kirby, Marth, Mewtwo, Link, Fox, pretty much in that order. Other relatively bad matchups include Mario, Sonic, Falco, Pit, and Peach.
The top 5 most successful characters in terms of bracket placings, according to Smashboards Ranking, are Fox, Mario, Marth, Link, and Metaknight, in that order.

So basically, Ivysaur is stopped from being top tier simply because the most played characters where it matters happen to be, for the vast majority, bad matchups for Ivysaur. The gates to top tierism are closed and heavily guarded.

There are a couple other characters with the same kind of problem. Wolf would be top tier but then that Marth douchebag had to ruin the party.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ivy vs Charizard is pretty easy tbh. I was THAT close to being the first French player to put *Zen in losers brackets this summer, and let's just say I'm not exactly as good as he is.
His ground speed and his killpower are great assets to have against Ivysaur, but they don't quite make up for the fact that he's a fatty imo.

Agreed with all.

Zen is a boss.

Ivysaur's top 5 worst matchups are Kirby, Marth, Mewtwo, Link, Fox, pretty much in that order.

If you're losing to Kirby, you have serious DI issues. pssst, the chaingrab is fake.

Of these, Ivy only actually loses to Mewtwo.

Other relatively bad matchups include Mario, Sonic, Falco, Pit, and Peach.

I've seen evidence suggesting that the Mario matchup could favor either character, which kinda says something considering how busted Mario is atm.

Jiggs beats Peach in Melee, simply because of her bair. Ivy's bair is about 100x better (as is the rest of her kit), there's no reason for Ivy to ever really lose this matchup.

I'd buy that a patient Sonic would wreck Ivy. He's got pretty much the exact toolset he needs to actually get in on her. Similar story for Pit, for the same reason that Pit stomps on Toon Link - Ivy probably shouldn't get the time she needs to properly set up her traps because of Pit's arrows.

Falco is just a dramatically worse pit, except that he's automatically dead any time he goes near an edge. He *can* win, but I'm extremely skeptical that he's at all favored.

So basically, Ivysaur is stopped from being top tier simply because the most played characters where it matters happen to be, for the vast majority, bad matchups for Ivysaur. The gates to top tierism are closed and heavily guarded.

This isn't really much of a problem for Ivy, considering that she only really loses to Sonic, M2, Pit and maaaybe MK -- and of those, only Sonic is a truly rough MU for her.

There are a couple other characters with the same kind of problem. Wolf would be top tier but then that Marth douchebag had to ruin the party.

Also notable: Toon Link (loses pretty bad to the entire top tier except Sonic)

 

[Exodo]

God Tier
Lucas

 

[TreK]

Of these, Ivy only actually loses to Mewtwo.

You lost me at this

 

[Bazkip]

You lost me at this

I think @ Frost | Odds is convinced that Ivysaur is the Antichrist

 

[Deleted member]

Odds mains bowser iirc

I'm not surprised.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You lost me at this

He's an odd child

 

[Soft Serve]

There are a couple other characters with the same kind of problem. Wolf would be top tier but then that Marth douchebag had to ruin the party.

Wolf/marth is like the most fun MU though, it's 100% even imo. What holds wolf back imo are m2, pit, diddy, and sonic, but above all its how his offstage game requires a huge comitment and against most characters it's not worth it. Wolf is legitimately broken/******** as a character, the environment of the game right now just doesn't let him show exactly how stupid he can be.
3.5 when?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think @ Frost | Odds is convinced that Ivysaur is the Antichrist

No, the Antichrist is a pretty cool dude.

Ivysaur is a particularly anal retentive, obese DMV clerk with a flatulence problem. She ruins everything for everyone else, but can't quite figure out why nobody likes her.

Odds mains bowser iirc

I'm not surprised.

I had to drop bowser for exactly this reason. -_-

I could get defensive, I guess, but I'm more just happy for all y'all that there's no good ivies in your regions (Lunchables excepted ofc).

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah playing vs denti is really boring. He has said some mean stuff to me midgame, and just the way he plays is pretty painful, but he's a good friend of mine so what happens in the game stays in the game. I wonder if the other ivysaurs are that obnoxious to play vs?

 

[Frost | Odds]

If they're playing well, they kind of have to be. Her optimal playstyle is pretty much entirely ledge camping and abusing her matchup-specific free 0-death setups. I don't really have any problems with the character concept (hell, I play Tink like a scared little girl), but the fact that nobody who hasn't played one of the 2 good ivies (that I know of) will acknowledge her insanity, is beyond frustrating.

She's just way too good at the moment, basically untapped like Diddy and Mewtwo were 8 months ago (which I also called at the time, fwiw). TheReflexWonder has called me an idiot about this opinion something like a half dozen times, so I'm not hopeful that she'll receive any meaningful fixes in 3.5.

Tink can win the matchup. Playing it still makes me want to kill myself. I'm also learning Wolf, literally because he might have a 5% better chance against Ivysaur (also so the locals will stop crying about Tink's up-b).

Also, yeah, Denti looks like the single most punchable person I've ever seen on a stream.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

There's about three things that absolutely murder my hype when I'm watching P:M sets.

a) Fox
b) Mewtwo
c) Ivy

Mario is at least still fun to watch ...

(Diddy goes without saying.)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Thane of Blue Flames is watching you

 

[steelguttey]

There's about three things that absolutely murder my hype when I'm watching P:M sets.

a) Melee
b) Top
c) Tiers

Mario is at least still fun to watch ...

(Diddy goes without saying.)

might of started a riot with this

 

[pkblaze]

Wolf/marth is like the most fun MU though, it's 100% even imo. What holds wolf back imo are m2, pit, diddy, and sonic, but above all its how his offstage game requires a huge comitment and against most characters it's not worth it. Wolf is legitimately broken/******** as a character, the environment of the game right now just doesn't let him show exactly how stupid he can be.
3.5 when?

What makes you say this? is Wolf broken vs people with gimpable recoveries? Is this to a degree that outshines Fox/Falco? Or is it just that 3.5 with unchanged spacies = Fox/Falco/Wolf top tier in your opinion?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Wolf is kind of bonkers if you look at him in a vacuum, but he gets away with it because he's 1) kept down by the top tiers/a few other MUs 2) mad hype and 3) none of his kit screams NERF PLS.

I could see him moving up a bit in 3.5 but I think changes to other characters will likely keep him out of the top spots.

 

[Soft Serve]

What makes you say this? is Wolf broken vs people with gimpable recoveries? Is this to a degree that outshines Fox/Falco? Or is it just that 3.5 with unchanged spacies = Fox/Falco/Wolf top tier in your opinion?

Pretty much what InfinityCollision said above, his off stage game is better than Falco's but all he really has going for him is super fast recovery on bair and Dair (and of course shine>turnarounds for positioning and a fast recovery). Compared to the risks a spacie/fast faller takes when going off stage, what rewards he gets against certain popular characters just isn't worth it. He can go out against most tethers and Mario and Melee characters really well though.
I don't think we would ever have an only fox/falco/wolf top tier in PM, not when everyone running around in the game being strong. The only things holding back wolf from being miles better than fox imo is gimping, and that his Nair is multi-hit so it doesn't trade well or beat out other moves (which is huge when approaching). The multi-hit property gives it crazy amounts of benifits though, so wolf wouldn't want to trade that away.
Wolf could be crazy if other characters recovery and on-stage presence get toned down some. Most of his bad MU's are less that he can't control the stage, and more that he gets gimped super hard and can struggle ending stocks vs. some characters once they get out of % range of being combo'd into side-b.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think you may need to add ROB to your list, Soft. His chaingrab, juggles, and gimps on Wolf are pretty oppressive- particularly the fact that your recovery path is extremely predictable and therefore easy for him to laser/gyro.

On the other hand he's pretty big which is nice for the yoloflash

 

[pkblaze]

I mean Spacies also look kinda broken in Vacuum. My question is why does Wolf look more broken than Falco/Fox? Cuz I don't think he does and I think he fits the archetype of a spacey pretty well. Strong normals with a shine, recovery mixups that can be gimped if you call them, hella fast falling speed, strong neutral and combo game.

 

[steelguttey]

cause spacies have a projectile that let them do silly zoning things and wolf doesnt and wolf has very awkward neutral cause most of his stuff is hella slow

 

[Frost | Odds]

wolf has the totally sick pivot boost grab/dash attack/dacus mixup though

 

[pkblaze]

cause spacies have a projectile that let them do silly zoning things and wolf doesnt and wolf has very awkward neutral cause most of his stuff is hella slow

OK so he's spacey-falcon.

 

[Player -0]

If you're losing to Kirby, you have serious DI issues. pssst, the chaingrab is fake.

Teach me how to DI pls.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

cause spacies have a projectile that let them do silly zoning things and wolf doesnt and wolf has very awkward neutral cause most of his stuff is hella slow

Nah
Just nair(+0 on shield) shine
Or short hop shine
Or something with YA laserz
I think his dd is ugly as hell tho

 

[Rᴏb]

so is his idle animation and running animation

his moves look sick tho, definitely top tier animations

 

[Frost | Odds]

Teach me how to DI pls.

away from the thing that sucks

 

[1FD]

OK so he's spacey-falcon.

I don't like this comparison.

He's more of a spacey-shiek with the Knee. (naus could explain better)

super fast recovery on bair and Dair

Most of his bad MU's are less that he can't control the stage, and more that he gets gimped super hard and can struggle ending stocks vs. some characters once they get out of % range of being combo'd into side-b.

Uair too
I don't think he really NEEDS to control the stage.
You don't see Falcon/Sheik doing it in Melee and Falcon doesn't in PM and they do great, this Wolf guy is a hybrid that outclasses both.
Think bout it

Ivysaur's top 5 worst matchups are Kirby, Marth, Mewtwo, Link, Fox, pretty much in that order. Other relatively bad matchups include Mario, Sonic, Falco, Pit, and Peach.

Wolf would be top tier but then that Marth douchebag had to ruin the party.

What about Falcon, Yoshi, Samus, maybe even Ness but stretching in there maybe?
Agreed on your picks, but I think these characters are mean too.
Wolf too.

Kirby best soft-but-not-really-counter-unless-you-get-the-thing

Nausicca on point with the callouts on SH aerial to midstage. That **** gets you wrecked.

If Naus called someone out it would be like their SOUL was in a vicegrip and he'd tear it down to its parts and show you your insides of exactly how/why you did the aerial to midstage and trace it back to your childhood nightmares until you couldn't do anything but face it and better yourself through attention and equanimity all the while calling the mundane happenings (like the aerial itself) a mundane thing you shouldn't be considering because it's a symptom of a deeper volitional reaction to something within your mind and habitual conditionings

Fortunately it was just me (his little internet friend while he's afk from life) who made the callout
Also fortunately he doesn't make callouts since he could call everything and it would be an endless trail of inner SOULBLOODTEARS across the community

I'm with soft serve on the Wolf > Marth thing.
Wolf's neutral is like Sheiks but with a Falcon twist and spacey safety on aggression.
I wouldn't worry about his neutral.
PS I think he's better than both other spacies
PPS ROB can't hit wolf he just gets clipped and flashed and dies
And yeah he does fine vs Ivy too

To add to wat ez said just space jabs and ftilts and bair/fair or dair as you fly around them and randomly shinegrab or dash attack/uair if they jump even laser if you want or just hang out that sh dair/fsmash/dash attack/shinegrab distance away and wait for free hits because you can.



Also

This DD/neutral endgame is theoretically where commitments should be happening, so if Lucas isn't committing, yet transitions into punishes, the precise reversals out of neutral movement that make this possible may deserve to be understood more instead of being glossed over, so the actual root of the issue can be discussed.

In fact, Lucas' exceptionally powerful options (e.g. DJC, which essentially offers him an expanded pseudo-pivot game, or the zair/grab combined coverage I mentioned earlier) all tend to apply as something you want to decisively end neutral with rather than delay until things happen; he just doesn't have the speed or hitbox coverage to disengage indefinitely without being cornered.

when compared to other, faster characters, Lucas is starting with a measurable disadvantage, because he can't hang back as far, and takes longer to space, leaving less time to punish. I sort of view it as Lucas gaining less leverage in spacing for each micro-action he takes, thus setting up his desired endgame less rapidly and with more effort.

Also, I think that you might be exaggerating DJC fair's control a little bit. It's only 0 at best on shield, and maintaining safety requires that you follow up with magnet or back off (i.e. lose positioning), assuming your opponent lacks frame 5 OoS or faster. If it allows WD back or even a jump from your opponent to become difficult options to chase, wouldn't that be a loss of movement, too?

This is some hardcore theory crafting and sounds like you really don't know the character. Easy things like how Fair is ranged so even if you're hitting a shield it's not like it's punishable, and magnet is the same but if you magnet > WD away (or aerial even) it has literally 0% commitment, while leading to combos if it connects, and without losing positioning if the opponent doesn't get hit/shields it and runs/whatever.

Maybe go watch Neon vs M2K GFs set and it might make sense of how to keep up with fast characters, range characters, both, projectiles, etc, without problme.
PS Lucas has a speed game that tops everyone when it comes to hitting, and is a combo of Fox and Luigi and Marth in movement, basically can't beat it (even Sonic and Pika are jealous of Lucas's control while fast)
PPS Neon isn't even using a lot of Lucas tools yet from Ftilts to Zairs to Grabs with any sort of presence so his pressure is a lot more straight forward than it will be in probably not too long from now since he looks like naus did in spring and keeps getting better
PPPS Even if M2K had good DI on the silly broken Lucas Dairs and things (really hard against Lucas) Lucas can still adjust and actually has better ways of insuring the touch-to-deaths that aren't even a publicly known common thing yet
The tourney is LCT2 I think if you're interested (maybe you've seen it)

 

[kevinw0w]

I think @ Frost | Odds is convinced that Ivysaur is the Antichrist

This guy ******* on the ivy boards to reflex for what must've been two straight pages and refused to listen to anything. It's honestly amusing to find you again on a different thread, still going on about how absolutely broken ivy is.

Also, the Kirby chaingrab is very much real and works on multiple characters - I'm not sure why you still act like it's DI'able even after people have shown you evidence. I'd post another link of denti vs laserkirby, but I feel like it'd be wasted effort.

 

[Frost | Odds]

This guy *****ed on the ivy boards to reflex for what must've been two straight pages and

Oh christ, it's this idiot. Showing up again to completely ignore me and attack straw men?

refused to listen to anything

Apparently you missed the numerous parts where I acknowledged Reflex's legitimate points, and investigated some of his claims.

It's honestly amusing to find you again on a different thread

Scum of your calibur are exceedingly rare. I wish I could say it was anything but the most intense displeasure to see you anywhere. I sincerely hope you quit the internet or learn to read between now and the next time you intend to post.

still going on about how absolutely broken ivy is.

Congratulations on failing to read a single thing I've said in this thread. Your illiteracy isn't a surprise, but I'm sure that little bit of validation will keep you alive for the next few minutes.

still going on about how absolutely broken ivy is. Also, the Kirby chaingrab is very much real and works on multiple characters

Obviously. It works on Kirby, Zelda, Jiggs, and possibly one or two others. It does not work on Ivysaur (below 90% anyway), however much fraudulent, lazy, crutch-dependent dip****s like you would like to claim otherwise.

I'm not sure why you still act like it's DI'able even after people have shown you evidence. I'd post another link of denti vs laserkirby, but I feel like it'd be wasted effort.

Denti is a fraud. Since you're utterly incapable of showing the basic courtesy of reading any part of my posts, I'm disinclined to humor your trolling by watching videos.

gr8 b8 m8. You successfully trolled me for no reason. Go set some orphanages on fire or whatever it is you do with the rest of your time.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't like this comparison.

He's more of a spacey-shiek with the Knee. (naus could explain better)

I want an explanation of this.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Woops. I stand corrected: Ivy definitely loses to M2 (though not really all that badly), but that's hardly worth mentioning anymore.

Fox can definitely beat her, but I don't think there's any reason to think she loses the matchup, any more than Marth does against Fox. I'd think that Meta Knight would be a bit more likely to win that MU due to his own disjoint and speed (for DD camping) and relatively difficulty to gimp.

The difference to Marth is that Ivy's grab is way worse, the overall mobility is worse, and the WD is worse.
I see the tendency in the entire community to overrate opposing characters' ability to crush Fox because of the parallels to Marth (and sometimes others). While against Marth, the risk-reward ratio is terrible and Marth also does have a decent neutral and decent mobility, great range and especially grab range, other characters often don't have the needed tools.
That impression gets stronger because those characters can still crush Fox if he messes up badly, but that shouldn't be that much of a part of judging about the matchup.

In the concrete example, Ivy's worse grab makes her approaching worse, side-b has its problems (enough CD to CC->punish etc.) and Fox can laser camp Ivy way better than Marth.

 

[InfinityCollision]

IHe's more of a spacey-shiek with the Knee.

That's actually a pretty good way to put it. He has the Sheik-esque neutral where he wants to reduce your options to something he can capitalize on, but he can do a lot of spacie stuff too because... he's a spacie. Knee because energems and ****.

 

[Frost | Odds]

The difference to Marth is that Ivy's grab is way worse, the overall mobility is worse, and the WD is worse.
I see the tendency in the entire community to overrate opposing characters' ability to crush Fox because of the parallels to Marth (and sometimes others). While against Marth, the risk-reward ratio is terrible and Marth also does have a decent neutral and decent mobility, great range and especially grab range, other characters often don't have the needed tools.
That impression gets stronger because those characters can still crush Fox if he messes up badly, but that shouldn't be that much of a part of judging about the matchup.

In the concrete example, Ivy's worse grab makes her approaching worse, side-b has its problems (enough CD to CC->punish etc.) and Fox can laser camp Ivy way better than Marth.

Legit points, and you could be entirely right. I'd argue, though, that you're not really accounting for a number of things here. Ivy's not nearly as dependent on her grab game against Fox, as Marth is. Marth needs the grabs to set up for his punishes on Fox, but Ivy can lead into her punishes with any of her aerials except bair (which is instant death for Fox if he's anywhere near the ledge anyway). Her 0-death juggles on Fox are completely braindead and relatively tough to mess up (nair -> utilt -> anything -> anything -> death).

She also has a projectile which, while slow (I'm sympathetic, as a Tink player), does narrow Fox's options and strongly encourage him to jump over it and try to hit Ivy with an aerial or tomahawk attack.

Her grab isn't as good as Marth's, but nobody's is. The dash grab is still very fast, and more than capable of picking Fox up at a distance if Ivy has any semblance of reading ability when Fox is descending from a nair or something. If Jiggs can grab Fox, Ivy really has no excuses.

I might have been in error comparing Ivy to Marth in this matchup, when she might play a lot more like Jiggs. That MU is commonly agreed to be 70:30 or 65:35, and Ivy is a lot, lot strictly better than Jiggs, in terms of punish, neutral, and gimp game. No matter which way you slice it, there's no way that this MU is much worse than even for Ivy - and even then Fox has to work far harder and has many more chances to mess up.

 

[kevinw0w]

@ Frost | Odds : Holy ****... Lol, I honestly did not expect this kind of response. I've only exchanged a few posts with you before and don't recall them having anywhere near this sort of hostility. I simply offered some background after others have also taken note of your almost comical level of hate for ivysaur.

 

[Soft Serve]

I want an explanation of this.

I don't agree with it 100%, but wolf can be like sheik and just sit in areas that the opponent doesn't want them to be in, and just wait and profit from that. To me he feels more like a spacie marth with a knee.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't agree with it 100%, but wolf can be like sheik and just sit in areas that the opponent doesn't want them to be in, and just wait and profit from that. To me he feels more like a spacie marth with a knee.

Wolf is just a combination of every character put into a spacie.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds : Holy ****... Lol, I honestly did not expect this kind of response. I've only exchanged a few posts with you before and don't recall them having anywhere near this sort of hostility. I simply offered some background after others have also taken note of your almost comical level of hate for ivysaur.

I became hostile when you began slandering me and misrepresenting my position. I'm sick of being misquoted, condescended to, and lied to. Please stop.