Tier List Speculation

[kevinw0w]

I became hostile when you began slandering me and misrepresenting my position. I'm sick of being misquoted, condescended to, and lied to. Please stop.

What's your position then? Because all I've gathered is that you really really hate ivysaur. Is that not accurate? I'd rather not revisit your old posts in the ivy matchup thread lol. It's just annoying when you argue with other ivy mains because of some of the extreme claims you make sometimes.

 

[Mccdbz5]

Is there an up to date tier list anywhere? The only ones I seem to be able to find are outdated.

 

[1FD]

My is pre-dated












But if you wanna know truth just go read nausicaa's posts from Jan and it's basically what everyone is starting to say now
Seriously I live a house once set foot in by the god of awareness or some ****

 

[DMG]

Idk about Ivy being hella busted, BUT she has no place in Smash. Certainly not in the Melee environment.

Also, Marth certainly does not beat Ivy. It's a very doable MU, and usually brutal for both sides, but Ivy has the range advantage and easier GG's all over (easier edgeguards, kills from throws, etc). The amount than Denti has had to play me and Zinth in the MU is enough that I'd be surprised if he lost another set to a Marth outside of PP/M2K caliber.

Fox on the other hand might beat her. I'd be curious to play other Ivy's in that MU though, as Denti's more campy playstyle probably works against him in that specific MU.

 

[pkblaze]

Idk about Ivy being hella busted, BUT she has no place in Smash. Certainly not in the Melee environment.

Can you elaborate on that?

 

[DMG]

Way back in like 2.6, someone brought up the question of what characters feel "wrong". Either low in viability like Ganon, huge MU issues, or other general problems. I replied that Ivy and D3 feel very out of place, since balancing them to a Melee standard is incredibly hard and even IF you found that balance, the resulting character design/personality would not be very enjoyable. Almost every other Brawl character is noticeably easier to try and "Melee-ify".

 

[GP&B]

For some reason, I always thought 1FD = naus alt

 

[steelguttey]

who the **** is nausicca

 

[Frost | Odds]

What's your position then? Because all I've gathered is that you really really hate ivysaur. Is that not accurate? I'd rather not revisit your old posts in the ivy matchup thread lol. It's just annoying when you argue with other ivy mains because of some of the extreme claims you make sometimes.

1. While Ivysaur is not broken in the sense of being nigh-unbeatable across the board like Mewtwo, she does share a number of similarities with Mewtwo's current situation.
- Her power is wildly underestimated by most players, especially Ivy mains who don't really know how to play anyone else.
- Her strength comes from a very similar source to M2. That is, her gimp game is completely free, and she never has to commit to anything in the neutral game due to her stupid range, speed, and lack of lag. In addition, most of her hits in neutral lead to braindead 0-death autocombos against large swathes of the cast.
- The above radically reduces the amount of options most characters have in this matchup. Against Ivy, you must either outcamp Ivy with projectiles, or DD camp until she commits to something unsafe, then go in and punish her. If your character cannot effectively do either of these things, your character automatically loses, because there is literally no way for you to ever get in on a smart Ivy player. Marth, Roy, Fox, and Wolf, for example, can certainly win the matchup because of their great dash speeds, jumps, aerial games, and grabs. Marth and Roy still lose because Ivy is just a better character, and Fox and Wolf have to work 100x harder than the Ivy player, but at least they have the tools to get in.
- When referring to her ridiculous neutral game, I mean mostly dtilt, dash grab, fair/bair/nair, and razor leaf in most matchups.

Bowser, DDD, Wario, and many other characters do not. Again, all of the above is just like m2.

2. Razor leaf is kinda bad against the characters that can beat Ivy, but serves to more completely invalidate her winning matchups. It effectively forces a character to hit it (forcing clank lag), jump over it (and almost nobody can challenge Ivy in the air), or run away (and give up all stage presence). Shielding is not an option, as that leads to a free grab for Ivy 100% of the time -- similar story for spotdodging. Again, Fox, Wolf, CF, and company don't really care as they can just jump over it and nairshine or whatever, but this tool appears designed specifically to ruin big or slow characters like Bowser and D3.

3. Up-B has a similar story. Uthrow-> upb cannot miss on most of the big characters, and they can't even punish a grounded upB that hits their shield through a platform. In those matchups, Ivy can literally spam her biggest/best kill move like it was PK fire.

Seriously:

if you miss with that, you're doing something horribly wrong.

It also finishes a lot of combos against floaties in general, and the DI to counter it is completely opposite of normal survival DI iirc. If you DI to survive getting hit offstage, you die to upB. If you DI for the upB, you get gimped for free. The option coverage is just built into her kit, no effort involved.

4. Ivy's edge game is also very polarizing. While she can gimp almost literally any character in the game with next to no effort, almost nobody can gimp Ivy - due to the instant reel on her tether and near-unchallengeable air game, combined with the dair, she has one of the longest *and* safest recoveries in P:M. There are characters that can gimp her (Wario, Mario, MK, Kirby, a few others), but it requires very precise timing and a read (to make sure she doesn't simply fair you and drop lower). Even in the MUs where she can be gimped, the other player has to work much harder to do so, and risks eating a random dair/whatever and instantly dying.

tl;dr: Ivy's toolset is incredibly polarizing and strong in general. She has very few losing matchups, very many winning ones, and a surprising amount of MUs that are literally impossible to lose for a competent player. Her kit also has very little respect for the Ivy player himself, and seems to assume that he's a drooling idiot, only capable of following a simple flowchart. This combination results in the Ivy matchup being universally frustrating and unfun even when it's 'fair' -- the Ivy player simply doesn't need to have any fundamentals or engage with the game in any meaningful way; and the character's design automatically beats anyone who doesn't play against her in the only way that can work (camping).

I don't 'hate' the character. I hate when insufferable mongoloids who can only play one character make presumptions about that character's balance. I also hate being told that I'm wrong (without any evidence being given to the contrary) about a character that I'm saying is too strong - for which I'm providing a solid case. I called the same thing about Mewtwo, Lucas, and Diddy almost immediately after release, and was constantly told "stop whining, he's perfectly balanced". I could wait for time to prove me right a fourth time, but it's getting old - and I worry that Reflex's influence in the PMDT will prevent Ivy from being fixed, and therefore prevent me from ever being able to play Bowser in tournament again.

@ Ripple did I miss anything?

 

[pkblaze]

I sort of agree with your analysis on Ivy's polarizing matchups. I play characters that can dashdance and whiff punish Ivysaur, but I don't see how anybody who can't do that won't get destroyed by Ivysaur. I guess characters like Link can just boomerang to victory, but those characters are also considered problematic.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, there's a select few characters like Link/M2 that can win just by beating Ivy in the projectile war. As mentioned, they're problematic for pretty similar reasons. M2 is on another level because of the addition of teleport, hover, and most of his aerials being completely safe on shield, but that's another discussion.

More relevant: M2 can notably force Ivy not to throw Razor Leafs simply by throwing fully charged shadow balls through them. Samus can kinda do the same thing, but I'm not sure whose tent is bigger in that MU.

 

[pkblaze]

Yeah, there's a select few characters like Link/M2 that can win just by beating Ivy in the projectile war. As mentioned, they're problematic for pretty similar reasons. M2 is on another level because of the addition of teleport, hover, and most of his aerials being completely safe on shield, but that's another discussion.

More relevant: M2 can notably force Ivy not to throw Razor Leafs simply by throwing fully charged shadow balls through them.

so TL;DR: Ivy is broken, her brokenness is just overshadowed by other broken characters.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Sort of. She's very poorly designed and therefore broken in some MUs and anti-fun in most others. I think she's overlooked by most people because at the moment, yes, she's overshadowed by other broken characters, but also importantly, she loses to or goes even with most of the current top tier - so most people are unaware of the MUs where she's actually busted because that's a more niche issue.

Also, there's almost nobody who plays her to a level that actually capitalizes on a lot of this stuff. I only know of Zigzagoon and Denti; every other Ivy I've watched has been utterly unimpressive. Even those two lack the sort of fundamentals that would be applicable to any other character (though Ziggy's Melee Pikachu is pretty legit); so there's a major lack of actual good Ivy play in the same way that nobody's really good at Mewtwo.

Ultimately I'd like to see the same sorts of changes for Ivy as for Bowser -- much higher skill floor and ceiling, less flowcharts and braindead options, more interesting options.

 

[Ripple]

You forgot that Im not even allowed to throw waddles the entire game due to solar beam charges fear.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Christ, I didn't even think of solar beam.

Whatever. The move is busted. Its mere existence forces the opponent to do a lot of really dumb stuff in the air. Before any Ivy says hitting it is hard: no. Hitting Wolf's side-b isn't even hard, and that's strictly slower and worse in every possible way. Hitting solar beam is easier than hitting Steven Hawking in a boxing match

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, there's a select few characters like Link/M2 that can win just by beating Ivy in the projectile war. As mentioned, they're problematic for pretty similar reasons. M2 is on another level because of the addition of teleport, hover, and most of his aerials being completely safe on shield, but that's another discussion.

More relevant: M2 can notably force Ivy not to throw Razor Leafs simply by throwing fully charged shadow balls through them. Samus can kinda do the same thing, but I'm not sure whose tent is bigger in that MU.

mewtwo beats ivysaur because psychic beats poison type duh

 

[DMG]

mewtwo beats ivysaur because psychic beats poison type duh

Mewtwo is such a troll, that he could use Flamethrower or Ice Beam and STILL win

 

[Strong Badam]

mewtwo beats ivysaur because psychic beats poison type duh

got'em

 

[Mccdbz5]

My is pre-dated












But if you wanna know truth just go read nausicaa's posts from Jan and it's basically what everyone is starting to say now
Seriously I live a house once set foot in by the god of awareness or some ****

That's just your list right? I'm wondering if there's an up to date official tier list.

 

[kevinw0w]

1. While Ivysaur is not broken in the sense of being nigh-unbeatable across the board like Mewtwo, she does share a number of similarities with Mewtwo's current situation.
- Her power is wildly underestimated by most players, especially Ivy mains who don't really know how to play anyone else.

Lol, the call-outs! I personally play sheik, charizard, and ivy almost evenly in tournament so I do take some offense to this claim.

- Her strength comes from a very similar source to M2. That is, her gimp game is completely free, and she never has to commit to anything in the neutral game due to her stupid range, speed, and lack of lag. In addition, most of her hits in neutral lead to braindead 0-death autocombos against large swathes of the cast.
- The above radically reduces the amount of options most characters have in this matchup. Against Ivy, you must either outcamp Ivy with projectiles, or DD camp until she commits to something unsafe, then go in and punish her. If your character cannot effectively do either of these things, your character automatically loses, because there is literally no way for you to ever get in on a smart Ivy player. Marth, Roy, Fox, and Wolf, for example, can certainly win the matchup because of their great dash speeds, jumps, aerial games, and grabs. Marth and Roy still lose because Ivy is just a better character, and Fox and Wolf have to work 100x harder than the Ivy player, but at least they have the tools to get in.
- When referring to her ridiculous neutral game, I mean mostly dtilt, dash grab, fair/bair/nair, and razor leaf in most matchups.
Bowser, DDD, Wario, and many other characters do not. Again, all of the above is just like m2.

Yes, her gimp game is very good but I think calling it "completely free" is an exaggeration. Ivy does not have nearly as dominant of a neutral game as you seem to think. Just off of the top of my head: fox, falco, mario, diddy, link, TL, mewtwo, pit, mk, falcon, and sonic all have great neutral games. As you stated yourself, Ivy loses when she gets outcamped by either projectiles or effective DD'ing. These weaknesses in themselves give her quite a few losing matchups. All of the "ridiculous" tools in neutral that you listed are certainly punishable and can't be thrown out thoughtlessly against competent players. I also have to question what these "braindead 0-death autocombos against large swathes of the cast" are.

2. Razor leaf is kinda bad against the characters that can beat Ivy, but serves to more completely invalidate her winning matchups. It effectively forces a character to hit it (forcing clank lag), jump over it (and almost nobody can challenge Ivy in the air), or run away (and give up all stage presence). Shielding is not an option, as that leads to a free grab for Ivy 100% of the time -- similar story for spotdodging. Again, Fox, Wolf, CF, and company don't really care as they can just jump over it and nairshine or whatever, but this tool appears designed specifically to ruin big or slow characters like Bowser and D3.

I won't disagree with this, but fat characters generally tend to suffer against projectiles - not just razor leaf. Plenty of projectiles can lead to grab punishes if grabbed.

3. Up-B has a similar story. Uthrow-> upb cannot miss on most of the big characters, and they can't even punish a grounded upB that hits their shield through a platform. In those matchups, Ivy can literally spam her biggest/best kill move like it was PK fire.

Seriously:

if you miss with that, you're doing something horribly wrong.

It also finishes a lot of combos against floaties in general, and the DI to counter it is completely opposite of normal survival DI iirc. If you DI to survive getting hit offstage, you die to upB. If you DI for the upB, you get gimped for free. The option coverage is just built into her kit, no effort involved.

I believe I've said this before in the ivy matchup thread, but I do agree that vine whip is a little too good. I think reduced knockback and/or re-adjusted hitboxes would be justified.

However, being above your opponent is almost always disadvantageous regardless of the matchup. Being relatively safe while attacking an opponent on a platform is not at all exclusive to ivy's grounded up-b

The DI option coverage really only rings true for being grabbed near the ledge, in which case many characters have powerful DI mixup throw options.

4. Ivy's edge game is also very polarizing. While she can gimp almost literally any character in the game with next to no effort, almost nobody can gimp Ivy - due to the instant reel on her tether and near-unchallengeable air game, combined with the dair, she has one of the longest *and* safest recoveries in P:M. There are characters that can gimp her (Wario, Mario, MK, Kirby, a few others), but it requires very precise timing and a read (to make sure she doesn't simply fair you and drop lower). Even in the MUs where she can be gimped, the other player has to work much harder to do so, and risks eating a random dair/whatever and instantly dying.

Again, you're complaining about traits not at all exclusive to Ivy. Tether nerfs have already been addressed for the upcoming version of PM.

F-air comes out on frame 15 which is much slower than many popular edgeguarding moves. d-air boosts diminish with each use similar to marth or roy's side-b and are useless after 3 stalls. The tether recovery itself achieves maximum distance at about a 45 degree angle away from the ledge - ivy can not use it while above the stage or past a surprisingly short distance directly below the ledge.

Tethers as a whole are more difficult to gimp compared to traditional recoveries, and for most matchups, simply holding the ledge and punishing the forced getup is the best option. the forced getup mechanic has been in PM for almost 10 months now, yet I still see people trying to go offstage to edgeguard and get punished for it.

tl;dr: Ivy's toolset is incredibly polarizing and strong in general. She has very few losing matchups, very many winning ones, and a surprising amount of MUs that are literally impossible to lose for a competent player. Her kit also has very little respect for the Ivy player himself, and seems to assume that he's a drooling idiot, only capable of following a simple flowchart. This combination results in the Ivy matchup being universally frustrating and unfun even when it's 'fair' -- the Ivy player simply doesn't need to have any fundamentals or engage with the game in any meaningful way; and the character's design automatically beats anyone who doesn't play against her in the only way that can work (camping).

I don't 'hate' the character. I hate when insufferable mongoloids who can only play one character make presumptions about that character's balance. I also hate being told that I'm wrong (without any evidence being given to the contrary) about a character that I'm saying is too strong - for which I'm providing a solid case. I called the same thing about Mewtwo, Lucas, and Diddy almost immediately after release, and was constantly told "stop whining, he's perfectly balanced". I could wait for time to prove me right a fourth time, but it's getting old - and I worry that Reflex's influence in the PMDT will prevent Ivy from being fixed, and therefore prevent me from ever being able to play Bowser in tournament again.

Just out of genuine curiosity, what do you think Ivy's losing matchups are and which matchups do you think are "unwinnable" for the other character? It's pretty insulting that you've resorted to attacking ivy mains personally for having "no fundamentals" and I do wish that you'd reconsider doing so.

I'm not saying that Ivy is perfectly balanced - she's not. I have my own ideas on how ivy will be rebalanced to make her less polarizing. You've mad some good points, but they all apply to multiple characters and are not exclusive to ivy. Yes, she's a good character, but she has plenty of weaknesses too. I didn't post here to spark an argument over ivy's balance - that's already been done in length on her character board. I called you out for previous behavior that you've showcased again on this thread because it's simply irritating that you continue to single-out ivy and relentlessly complain about her.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Tethers can in fact be used above the edge. Most characters just have a random zone somewhere above the edge but within tether reach that causes an automatic tether whiff. Samus' fail zone for example is anywhere her waist is parallel with the stage floor. But anywhere above that and relatively close she can still tether. Same with Ivy tho I think the fail zone might be in a different spot.

 

[_Chrome]

Where would you guys put ZSS?

 

[kaizo13]

ZSS is top 15 imo
other than having a bit of trouble killing sometimes and a terrible grab, she's a really good character. top tier mobility, fast aerials and a great recovery

 

[_Chrome]

Yeah same sentiments here! As long as the player has great movement (the building blocks of playing ZSS well) they'll be fine so long as they get another character to handle the spacie matchups.

 

[MasterBlu]

Yeah same sentiments here! As long as the player has great movement (the building blocks of playing ZSS well) they'll be fine so long as they get another character to handle the spacie matchups.

To be honest, although I am not a ZSS main, I feel that she stands near the bottom of the tier list. While her options are good, her inability to close out kills and low weight make her less viable than some other characters because many other characters are significantly buffed in many areas which allow them to either escape her combos or just have better options against her than she does against them. This is just my opinion though. I would liek to post a personal tier list but need more time to think it through. We should have a smashboards tier list which would be ages better than the CT one.

 

[jtm94]

ZSS is weird, a lot of characters are weird. I don't like Solar Beam as a whole. The move is somehow a better version of UpB.

 

[MLGF]

Ivysaur is really weird TBF, I don't knwo if she's broken but she never felt really Smashish to me.

Good luck based PMDT

 

[_Chrome]

To be honest, although I am not a ZSS main, I feel that she stands near the bottom of the tier list. While her options are good, her inability to close out kills and low weight make her less viable than some other characters because many other characters are significantly buffed in many areas which allow them to either escape her combos or just have better options against her than she does against them. This is just my opinion though. I would liek to post a personal tier list but need more time to think it through. We should have a smashboards tier list which would be ages better than the CT one.

Hey man, if you want to create your own tier list, go to www.eventhubs.com , you'll be able to rate the individual match-ups for each character, and you'll be able to save your results and compare the other characters! Check it out!

 

[Frost | Odds]

Lol, the call-outs! I personally play sheik, charizard, and ivy almost evenly in tournament so I do take some offense to this claim.

If you don't play exclusively Ivy, you naturally wouldn't be included in the callout. I can respect a Zard.

Yes, her gimp game is very good but I think calling it "completely free" is an exaggeration.

Nope.

Ivy does not have nearly as dominant of a neutral game as you seem to think. Just off of the top of my head: fox, falco, mario, diddy, link, TL, mewtwo, pit, mk, falcon, and sonic all have great neutral games.

Toon Link's neutral game isn't that good (he's all about the punish), but otherwise, sure. At least some of these characters, though, have weaknesses commensurate with their neutral games -- the fastfallers all get combo'd to hell, Fox and Falco require orders of magnitude more technical skill than most chars on that list, and Sanic gets rused by anyone with good lingering hitboxes.

Of course, most of these characters are in exactly the same category as Ivy, in terms of having ridiculous neutral and gimp games, and no real weaknesses. Mario, Diddy, Link, Mewtwo, Pit, and MK are all stupid OP now - the only difference is, I don't have half of Smashboards dogpiling me over thinking that those characters are busted (anymore).

As you stated yourself, Ivy loses when she gets outcamped by either projectiles or effective DD'ing.

That's the only time she can lose, yes. She doesn't necessarily lose the MU if that happens.

These weaknesses in themselves give her quite a few losing matchups. All of the "ridiculous" tools in neutral that you listed are certainly punishable and can't be thrown out thoughtlessly against competent players.

Some of the tools are punishable by some characters. Others have literally no way of ever getting in. You don't play any such characters, so it's not surprising that you'd have no idea what that's like.

I also have to question what these "braindead 0-death autocombos against large swathes of the cast" are.

nair->utilt -> anything -> anything -> anything -> gimp or upb -> death
fair -> anything ... -> death
throw -> upb (if you win the coin toss, or 100% if you're against a fatty)
nair -> grab -> anything -> death
uair/dair -> juggles -> death
dair -> loldeath
offstage bair -> loldeath

etc

I've labbed this stuff myself, and have no problems 0-deathing many characters with a pokemon that I don't even play. If you're having that much difficulty, maybe Smash isn't your game.

I won't disagree with this, but fat characters generally tend to suffer against projectiles - not just razor leaf. Plenty of projectiles can lead to grab punishes if grabbed.

I can maintain over-50%, sometimes near-100% powershielding rates against most projectiles in the game. Razor Leaf is by far the most difficult one to powershield due to the weird way its hitbox moves around. In addition, when it's shielded, it continues hitting the fatty, allowing Ivy to get a completely free grab pretty much regardless of how far away she is. Most other projectiles have fairly limited shieldstun even if they're not pshielded.

I believe I've said this before in the ivy matchup thread, but I do agree that vine whip is a little too good. I think reduced knockback and/or re-adjusted hitboxes would be justified.

A little. Heh.

However, being above your opponent is almost always disadvantageous regardless of the matchup. Being relatively safe while attacking an opponent on a platform is not at all exclusive to ivy's grounded up-b

No, but being completely safe while throwing out your best kill move against someone on a platform is exclusive to Ivy and Marth -- and Marth has weaknesses.

Again, you're complaining about traits not at all exclusive to Ivy. Tether nerfs have already been addressed for the upcoming version of PM.

Of course it's not exclusive to Ivy. The problem with Ivy isn't just any one thing - it's that the sum of her parts is absolutely ludicrous in most matchups - much like Mario or Mewtwo.

F-air comes out on frame 15 which is much slower than many popular edgeguarding moves. d-air boosts diminish with each use similar to marth or roy's side-b and are useless after 3 stalls. The tether recovery itself achieves maximum distance at about a 45 degree angle away from the ledge - ivy can not use it while above the stage or past a surprisingly short distance directly below the ledge.

If you're not capable of throwing out the fair or dair before the guy edgeguarding you is able to get his move out, Smash probably isn't your game. There's a very limited time window where Ivy can be edgeguarded by most characters, and covering yourself with a fair is indeed completely braindead.

Just out of genuine curiosity, what do you think Ivy's losing matchups are and which matchups do you think are "unwinnable" for the other character?

In no particular order

Losing matchups:
Mewtwo
Pit
Probably Fox (Though Fox has to know *exactly* what to do in the MU and not mess up ever)
Sonic
MK
Diddy

Even matchups:
Falco - though I'm inclined to think Falco loses, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Wolf? He might win this MU due to his air speed + dash attack + shield pressure.
Lucas - probably
I could see cases being made for Pikachu and Squirtle, but I lack much experience with them
Possibly Mario

Invalidating Matchups (if you lose to these, congratulations on winning lifetime admission to handicapped parking spaces)
-Bowser
-D3
-Jigglypuff
-Ganondork
-Probably Wario (though I'm not nearly as sure about this one. It could be as close as 70:30, but I doubt it)

Winning Matchups: pretty much everything else (though I probably overlooked some)
- This includes Kirby, who can't actually ever get in on Ivy, and, I repeat, does not have a chaingrab on her at any sort of meaningfully early %.

It's pretty insulting that you've resorted to attacking ivy mains personally for having "no fundamentals" and I do wish that you'd reconsider doing so.

Uh, I was pretty explicitly referring only to the two mentioned. Though I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ivy's playstyle attracted people who tended to have little or no smash fundamentals/ skills applicable to other characters, obviously making such a strong claim generally would be idiotic.

Zigzagoon/Denti, if you're reading this, invite is open for a $20 bo5 MM: any of your secondaries vs one of mine. I'm open to being proven wrong.

I'm not saying that Ivy is perfectly balanced - she's not. I have my own ideas on how ivy will be rebalanced to make her less polarizing. You've mad some good points, but they all apply to multiple characters and are not exclusive to ivy.

I never claimed that any of this was exclusive to Ivy.

Yes, she's a good character, but she has plenty of weaknesses too. I didn't post here to spark an argument over ivy's balance - that's already been done in length on her character board. I called you out for previous behavior that you've showcased again on this thread because it's simply irritating that you continue to single-out ivy and relentlessly complain about her.

I'm sorry that it irritates you, but the simple fact is nobody else is doing it, and there are legitimate balance complaints to be made. If nobody starts the discussion, it doesn't happen. If we're going to get a balanced game at any point in the future, these unpleasant discussions have to happen. Sorry for being the bearer of bad news, I guess.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nobody is going to read all that shit, including but not limited to the guy you are responding to

 

[Yashichi]

Nobody is going to read all that shit, including but not limited to the guy you are responding to

i read it all. i wish i hadn't, but i did. it blows my mind that someone could be this upset over how supposedly broken a character is

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Nobody is going to read all that shit, including but not limited to the guy you are responding to

Also read it. Can't say I agree, but he names some arguments so thats already better than most tier list speculation posts in general.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I miss Brawl+ Ivy, back when bair wasn't absurdly strong. She also had double razor leaf back then though...

Also **** Metaknight! This character is so under-utilized lmao. The more I find with him, the more I wonder why people don't use him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Nobody is going to read all that shit, including but not limited to the guy you are responding to

Especially not the guy I'm responding to, if history is any indicator.

i read it all. i wish i hadn't, but i did. it blows my mind that someone could be this upset over how supposedly broken a character is

For about the 800th time, I'm not terribly upset about Ivy's balance situation. The only upsetting thing is everyone's stolid determination to never acknowledge it.

 

[Ogopogo]

Odds must be having the time of his life. He's been upset about Ivy for months.

I will admit she's polarizing. She poops on slow fat people like D3 and Bowser but has trouble handling fast or dd-heavy characters like Fox, Mewtwo, or Marth.

 

[Foo]

Where would you guys put ZSS?

I'd put her around the middle, perhaps on the slightly higher side of middle. She's a funny character, that has VERY defined strengths and weaknesses. On one hand she has a great neutral game, great recovery and great movement, but on the other hand she has abysmal oos options, one of (if not the) worst grab(s) in the game dies relatively early. On one hand she has some really long range moves, but on the other hand those moves are very slow and/or VERY laggy (grab, side-b, fsmash, neutral b*). One on hand her back air and downsmash are incredible, on the other hand they are her only viable killmoves**.

*Neutral b comes out fairly slow at frame 21, and charged at frame 41.
**I know her fsmash is technically the other kill move, but since downsmash leads to guaranteed fsmash and fsmash isn't viable to throw out, we'll call downsmash the kill move.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Idk I read all of odd's post, and I thought it was a good read. Better than a lot of the other posts I see in this thread.

 

[shairn]

I miss Brawl+ Ivy, back when bair wasn't absurdly strong. She also had double razor leaf back then though...

Also **** Metaknight! This character is so under-utilized lmao. The more I find with him, the more I wonder why people don't use him.

Come over to Montreal, we all know the fear of Holy's MK
Never lost a set until Ally came back from Michigan

 

[FreeGamer]

Ivy beats Kirby? I doubt it's by very much, if that's the case. ._.

 

[_Chrome]

Ivy beats Kirby? I doubt it's by very much, if that's the case. ._.

Kirby wins by far. My bro who plays Kirby (with bias) agrees that the MU is at least 60% (being generous to Ivysaur), 65% or 70% being more accurate. Kirby can get the solar charge by eating him, the edgeguards are unreal, the multiple jumps help against camping, plus the dash attack (SUPER EFFECTIVE) and cutter dash get past moves like bair and fair. Ivy can't really gimp Kirby either, also there's no aerial chasing bc of the cutter dash and multiple jumps. Also Ivysaur's throws are worse against Kirby bc of his floatiness. Kirby's tech chase off the down throw is great. Razor leaf also sucks against Kirby, bc he can space it well and come in quickly. Finally, normally a tether recovery will sweetspot the ledge, BUT Kirby can enter the normal hitbox range (which takes priority over the tether) safely bc of his multiple jumps.

That's just my opinion and my bro's based off of our experience, maybe I'm doing something wrong! If so please let me know!

P.S. Ivysaur is not op (seems op at first, my bro thought so too), unless you let the Ivysaur control the match by doing something like nair or dair spam into a bair etc. If she can't control the match, she loses.