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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Poor TL player. Seeing your hopes and dreams plummeting as determined by 48 internet goers. Must be hard.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Tink is free dontcha know?
BlinkIV
Avenger
I don't think TL is bad at all.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Seems alright, but Link shouldn't be that low. Tink could probably move up a bit too, and Bowser should be a bit lower. The rest aren't too unreasonable.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
That dark blue font is particularly hard to see on the default theme. Something about how it contrasts but is still dark against the dull dark grey background makes it really blurry (I say as I'm using font coloured like #FFEEEE or something). Try using #306BFF.
Also alright ZSS moving on up in the world. Still way lower than she should be though.
Also Ike wtf happened.
Also alright ZSS moving on up in the world. Still way lower than she should be though.
Also Ike wtf happened.
I feel like there's a way to make tables in this forum's BBCode and I just don't know how. It'd be a lot more convenient for visibility.
Duly noted, though, just changed the color now.
Duly noted, though, just changed the color now.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
I used to think Snake was the worst in the game, but now 48 people have changed my mind, thank you my special 48.
Wario dropped like a rock LOL my lord
Movin on up~
MOVIN ON UP~
ZSS on the ladder to heaven tier
I looked at whoever voted Sonic the lowest. That same person also thought Lucas was a god and thought Pikachu was better. YEEEEAEEEAEAEEEAEAEAE
Movin on up~
MOVIN ON UP~
ZSS on the ladder to heaven tier
I looked at whoever voted Sonic the lowest. That same person also thought Lucas was a god and thought Pikachu was better. YEEEEAEEEAEAEEEAEAEAE
9Kplus1
Smash Master
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
LOL @ Bowser.
Additionally, I like how the thread got completely derailed from seemingly productive MU discussion to discussion about a tier list from a survey.
Additionally, I like how the thread got completely derailed from seemingly productive MU discussion to discussion about a tier list from a survey.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Sonic's move where he goes into a ball and makes a VREE sound is pretty good in most matchups.
D
Deleted member
Guest
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-79#post-15636399
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-78#post-15621962
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-62#post-15460244
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-37#post-15339692
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-37#post-15339653
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-37#post-15339202
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-37#post-15338964
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-36#post-15338804
we can START here.
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, judging from how quickly people started complaining about the "low" characters on the survey tier list, I think my point is made about how tier lists aren't too beneficial for us. The people complaining about the low characters are right in that those characters shouldn't be on the bottom tier, because no one should be. Heck, the lowest tier any character in this game should be is high tier. No one is below that, even the ones that are said to be the worst characters. They are still better than any mid tier from Melee.
I agree Ness has a lot of trouble with Shiek. He doesn't have a quick ledghop to punish her lag from landing on the stage (Like how Falcon has ledgehop knee). His Pika thunder is stopped by needles. The main thing Ness has is Pika Fire and really unorthodox vertical movement, which I imagine is hard for Shiek to manage when done correctly. Can Ness use his nair like Peach's and try to trade with Shiek? If so, that could help considering Ness will win a war of attrition due to his recovery.
I agree Ness has a lot of trouble with Shiek. He doesn't have a quick ledghop to punish her lag from landing on the stage (Like how Falcon has ledgehop knee). His Pika thunder is stopped by needles. The main thing Ness has is Pika Fire and really unorthodox vertical movement, which I imagine is hard for Shiek to manage when done correctly. Can Ness use his nair like Peach's and try to trade with Shiek? If so, that could help considering Ness will win a war of attrition due to his recovery.
The reason I made them was for the purpose of showing an easy-to-digest history of how a P:M metagame will be like. Is it accurate? Probably not, but it isn't supposed to be, it's supposed to be an indication of what the community thinks is good right now. No matter what, people are going to think there's better characters than others, and if acknowledging that is somehow "hurting" the metagame, then I guess I'll be first to run it with explosives attached to me.
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
Sorry. I'm not attacking you or your thread. I don't think it's "hurting" the metagame, but I do think it isn't that productive for the metagame. Mostly because if we discuss tier lists, we mostly talk about what makes characters good and bad without taking anything specific into account. For example, Sonic is awesome because of X and Y, and Ness is horrible because of W and Z. This kind of talk only makes us think there are huge gaps between characters, and the metagame is stalled at that line of thinking. Whereas if we talk about matchups, we could find that Ness actually beats Sonic because we discussed strategy and came up with strategy U and V. And with that, we advance the metagame and balance the cast out with match up strategy.
Low tier in Project M =/= Low tier in Melee.
You can't just say "low tier doesn't exist!" because it will always exist. That's just a fact. In any game with characters that do different things there will be a high tier, and a low tier, with some middle ground. Even if this game was incredibly balanced, to the point where any given character would be placed in high tier if not higher relative to Melee's balance, there would still be a low tier.
So, when we say that Ness is low tier are we saying that Ness is still as weak as a low tier character in Melee? Ness was buffed, but so was everybody else, so maybe Ness is still low tier in relation to the Project M cast but NOT to the Melee cast (Note, I have virtually no experience with Ness so I have no idea if he's actually low tier or not, he's just an example).
When people say that low tier shouldn't exist I facepalm. Low tier will always exist, but the definition of low tier changes from game to game. Let's say we were to rate every character on their powerlevel with a scale from 1-100. Let's say that somehow you were able to get every character up to say, 88 or higher. You would still rate the characters who are at 88-90 or whatever low tier, because despite still being strong, they are the statistically weakest characters in the cast.
InProject M, the gap between tiers is smaller than it was in Melee for sure, but it's still there.
You can't just say "low tier doesn't exist!" because it will always exist. That's just a fact. In any game with characters that do different things there will be a high tier, and a low tier, with some middle ground. Even if this game was incredibly balanced, to the point where any given character would be placed in high tier if not higher relative to Melee's balance, there would still be a low tier.
So, when we say that Ness is low tier are we saying that Ness is still as weak as a low tier character in Melee? Ness was buffed, but so was everybody else, so maybe Ness is still low tier in relation to the Project M cast but NOT to the Melee cast (Note, I have virtually no experience with Ness so I have no idea if he's actually low tier or not, he's just an example).
When people say that low tier shouldn't exist I facepalm. Low tier will always exist, but the definition of low tier changes from game to game. Let's say we were to rate every character on their powerlevel with a scale from 1-100. Let's say that somehow you were able to get every character up to say, 88 or higher. You would still rate the characters who are at 88-90 or whatever low tier, because despite still being strong, they are the statistically weakest characters in the cast.
InProject M, the gap between tiers is smaller than it was in Melee for sure, but it's still there.
Don't worry about it (I've probably been too aggressive to begin with regarding this, sorry about that).
That's actually smart, too. I tried going for more of a tier list on MUs before, but people HAVE tried that before and... it tends to not work very well. A lot of it comes down to there not being enough players willing to fill out a long survey for it; Assuming everyone from the survey I made did this theoretical survey for matchups, there'd still be roughly half of the cast with any more than a single person for that MU in particular.
Maybe ask for MUs on each character board and work from there? You'd get directly to the heart of it (since the more notable posters in most boards have a huge understanding of their characters), but it still has the problem where boards like jiggs' are basically empty.
That's actually smart, too. I tried going for more of a tier list on MUs before, but people HAVE tried that before and... it tends to not work very well. A lot of it comes down to there not being enough players willing to fill out a long survey for it; Assuming everyone from the survey I made did this theoretical survey for matchups, there'd still be roughly half of the cast with any more than a single person for that MU in particular.
Maybe ask for MUs on each character board and work from there? You'd get directly to the heart of it (since the more notable posters in most boards have a huge understanding of their characters), but it still has the problem where boards like jiggs' are basically empty.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I started playing puff, give me 2 years. I'll shell out her entire metagame for you guyz.
(remember this)
(remember this)
You gay
But not as gay as Sonic
Best post imo was about logical "shortcuts". http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-78#post-15621962 <<<--- dat one. Beautiful.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Meh, I'd much rather fight a Sonic in tournament than a Fox or Falco. It would be far easier to beat Sonic.
And YES, the best Sonic players.
And YES, the best Sonic players.
I'd rather fight a Fox or Falco because hopefully when I get the chance to touch them, they'll eat massive damage boners from Space and die
Shine is still most infuriating move of all time
This discussion irrelevant for 2.6, as Sonic will have a major case of food poisioning *cough "IT'S NERF OR NOTHIN!!!" coughbat*
Shine is still most infuriating move of all time
This discussion irrelevant for 2.6, as Sonic will have a major case of food poisioning *cough "IT'S NERF OR NOTHIN!!!" coughbat*
Oro?!
Smash Hero
No one knows nearly enough about PM on the whole to make any clear assessment. Hell, I probably haven't even play against half of the cast as ZSS vs a skilled player. Considering that's a majority of my knowledge I wouldn't expect someone else to complete a ZSS matchup chart. If everyone is piecing together fragmented information, it's bound to look like a terrible MU chart/Tier list anyways.
The worst part about this whole endeavor is that this speculation is just for 2.5b. "Everything is subject to change"
The worst part about this whole endeavor is that this speculation is just for 2.5b. "Everything is subject to change"
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Except they'll kill you way earlier than Sonic would and it doesn't really matter since you can't touch them to begin with
Also you will mess up your **** when you touch them anyway, because you're human and not 10100101001010101001011
Also you will mess up your **** when you touch them anyway, because you're human and not 10100101001010101001011
If Sonic were a robot, he wouldn't even use binary. He'd use a bunch of 4's and alphabet soup letters and gemoetry shapes. Beep boop "Triangle p 951~#$@#~"
What's the point? There is no point. **** Sonic
Spacies are lame and Fox in particular is a *****. Sonic goes off on some awkward tangent about not having fun though, and feels real bad for the game. Like you can literally take a huge chunk of the cast vs Sonic, and even if Sonic specifically is not one of their worst MU's, the gameplay that will ensue is likely to be the least fun they could possibly have. Like a character could be hard butt countered by Marth, and somehow you will still enjoy it more than facing Sonic.
What's the point? There is no point. **** Sonic
Spacies are lame and Fox in particular is a *****. Sonic goes off on some awkward tangent about not having fun though, and feels real bad for the game. Like you can literally take a huge chunk of the cast vs Sonic, and even if Sonic specifically is not one of their worst MU's, the gameplay that will ensue is likely to be the least fun they could possibly have. Like a character could be hard butt countered by Marth, and somehow you will still enjoy it more than facing Sonic.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
It doesn't work because no one that plays this game competitively uses these forums or wants to bother discussing the game.
When's the last time you saw Hungrybox or Zimmermanson around these parts?
When's the last time you saw Hungrybox or Zimmermanson around these parts?
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
If the difference between the tiers is that minute (Which it is in PM), and low tier means that they are actually still a really good character and aren't far off (If at all) from high tier, then what is the point of using them?
All tier lists do is corroborate the ideas that low tier characters are worse than high tier characters, which I believe isn't true. I have full faith that, let's say a character like Luigi, is perfectly balanced with spacies now (Assuming both high level players), but because we still use tier lists, he is represented as not equal with them. It's not going to help the metagame if we try to purposely imbalance Project M, which is very balanced, with our tier list logic. Plus it's an insult to the game itself.
The main problem with going to the character specific boards for matchups is that you aren't going to get the same kind of input as a general discussion forum. Meh, maybe someone should just make a general discussion matchup thread, so the people who want to talk about tier lists can stay here and the people who want to talk about matchups can go there.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
WTF who cares if those people are here or not
Anyway, yea I agree that fighting Sonic makes the game less fun. But I'd have a much easier time winning the match against Sonic then winning against the far more broken garbage that is spacies
????
Luigi perfectly balanced with Spacies
PLEASE give me a moment to soak this in, I can't go from bashing on Sonic to having a good time laughing at what you may have just said
Do you mean balanced as in Luigi can do ok vs Spacies
OR
That he's "comparable" to Spacies in viability or results or whatever
What did you just say my friend? Your answer may determine your future because you may be a little GOONIE if you think Luigi is as good as a ****in Spacie holy **** the world would be great
Saying stuff like "Oh yeah Luigi is the new Falco" actually means that Luigi will miss out on further buffs because you fail to realize that he's actually not on par with literally 2 of the top 2/3 characters in the game. The gap between an actually "broken" character vs someone pretty fair, is a bit much. Luigi pays his taxes ok, don't label him with those Spacie "filths"
Luigi pays his taxes ok
Luigi perfectly balanced with Spacies
PLEASE give me a moment to soak this in, I can't go from bashing on Sonic to having a good time laughing at what you may have just said
Do you mean balanced as in Luigi can do ok vs Spacies
OR
That he's "comparable" to Spacies in viability or results or whatever
What did you just say my friend? Your answer may determine your future because you may be a little GOONIE if you think Luigi is as good as a ****in Spacie holy **** the world would be great
Saying stuff like "Oh yeah Luigi is the new Falco" actually means that Luigi will miss out on further buffs because you fail to realize that he's actually not on par with literally 2 of the top 2/3 characters in the game. The gap between an actually "broken" character vs someone pretty fair, is a bit much. Luigi pays his taxes ok, don't label him with those Spacie "filths"
Luigi pays his taxes ok
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
DMG I'm confused as to whether or not you're responding to me, my avatar, or something else entirely
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
In terms of viability, Luigi is on par with Spacies. Not many people took him seriously as a character in Melee, and he was underrated in that game, and he is now tons better in PM.
Do you use Luigi at all? Have you played against a great Luigi? Are you having a bad day today?
Edit:
He was responding to me.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Well as a really amazing P:M Luigi player I can say that I think Luigi does well against Falco and especially against Wolf, but certainly not Fox.
And by doing well against Falco I mean he can put up a pretty good fight and not get combo'd as easily as other characters.
And by doing well against Falco I mean he can put up a pretty good fight and not get combo'd as easily as other characters.
Made a separate thread so we can keep general "is he good/bad" and "is he good/bad v this character in particular" tidy.
http://smashboards.com/threads/posting-mus-are-67-12-506-in-my-favor-matchup-discussion.338102/
http://smashboards.com/threads/posting-mus-are-67-12-506-in-my-favor-matchup-discussion.338102/
Oh yeah I forgot, I need the best Luigi in the world in my backyard before I criticize that Pickle of a character. You literally could hold back real buff progress for that character with talks like that. While we're at it, might as well say Ganon is as good as Falco. Bet you don't play with Kage all day, what now son? Gonna use that Cucumber of a man to prove me wrong?
(I like Luigi, but please put down the sugar and drugs if you think he's as good as a ****in certified spacies)
Eli knows what's up. **** Fox bro, he's a ***** nugga
(I like Luigi, but please put down the sugar and drugs if you think he's as good as a ****in certified spacies)
Eli knows what's up. **** Fox bro, he's a ***** nugga
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Word I love getting shined mid-stage into a gimp from anywhere with minimal effort. Makes me smile and praise melee as a game for its infinite glory that we humbly attempt to emulate in hopes of winning the interest of admirable melee lords whom we shall all worship and love with all our hearts while struggling to latch onto the competitive smash scene with their approval and permission for us to exist.
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
Drugs are for thugs.
What I say is not going to stop the PMBR from buffing Luigi if they wish to do so. If we did a matchup spread for Fox and then did one for Luigi, I would guarantee that Luigi would have about the same amount of good matchups and bad matchups as Fox. Especially considering how many people have anti fast faller moves. I really don't see what's so controversial about what I am saying.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Name one bad matchup for Fox (and don't say Sonic).
Go.
Go.