Tier List Speculation

[Scythe]

how can someone who lives in/near the home of darkrain think this
sigh

 

[Kink-Link5]

Darkrain is okay but I can't help he's held back by using such a cheesy character.

 

[Strong Badam]

I have had the "opportunity" to play David weekly for a few years, and that has only made me dislike Falcon more. Dash dance ad infinitum -> nair/grab -> 0-death combo -> get called manly -> lose -> complain about your character on the Falcon boards is the antithesis of "cool."

 

[Kink-Link5]

See, I'm not the only one that hates Falcon's design. Stong Bad we should get small drinks together.

 

[Vashimus]

When my pro friend destroys me with his Falcon in friendlies, I can barely look him in the eye.

 

[Strong Badam]

See, I'm not the only one that hates Falcon's design. Stong Bad we should get small drinks together.

Small drinks...? I go hard. Cuba libre for days.

 

[Kink-Link5]

When my pro friend destroys me with his Falcon in friendlies, I can barely look him in the eye.

Falcon is probably among the more disconserning characters to lose against because he does the same thing for 5 minutes and it works anyway until it's used against a player trained enough to deal with it. He's definitely one of the easiest to do well with along a large spectrum of mid-level play.

 

[CyberZixx]

I agree with these Falcon sentiments. I still don't mind fighting him but certainly do go mad for watching falcon like many people seem to. Falco on the other hand. Has a similar crazy combo game as falcon and the ability to control you full screen with lasers. Fantastic normals all around not to mention Dair or shine.

 

[B.W.]

I hate Ivysaur's new Razor Leaf. I hate Ivysaur's old Razor Leaf too, but the new one being limited to a single projectile makes me hate it. Mostly because it's kind of hard to tell when you're able to use it again sometimes. Like when I smash throw it and it goes off screen and there's no indicator of when I can use it again because the only way I'm supposed to know is by watching it disappear.

Ivysaur's Seed Bomb lobbing is a cool buff, but Ivysaur is still pretty bad overall imo.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

I spent about 10 minutes trying to accurately portray why people like Falcon so much, and I finally did, but then I reread over my post-to-be, and decided that it wasn't entirely worth posting due to being relatively dry, and not all that interesting, so instead I have decided that the best course of action is to paste a whole bunch of Falcon faces in a row on the lines below. Enjoy

 

[9bit]

That pretty much sums it up anyway.

 

[trash?]

falcon is an actual glass cannon, as in someone without defensive power (note 2 spacies: having armor on your recovery moves is not lacking defensive power, get out), and therefore when playing him you have to actually be patient and know what you're doing

 

[mudkyp]

From about 50-70 more hours of play this week, I can easily say that Lucas is significantly worse with his new Dair attack but I'm indifferent towards his bair. They're both great for different reasons.

I can say that G&W and Ivysaur have improved significantly, and I cannot express how much fun I'm having with Zelda. Is her Din's Fire shorter length of mine rest but exploding more powerfully? God I love her traps and set up very good walls for combos.

I would have to say Zelda has moved up to mid to mid-low tier and Game and Watch is definitely mid tier now. Lucas is kind of down.

 

[Hylian]

People really need to start looking at a wider scope when criticizing characters. Sure, you may have played lucas a lot in the past week and come to the conclusion that he's worse because of his new dair, but how can you possibly state that as fact? How big is your sample-size of match-ups/opponents and how much confidence do you have that other players aren't doing things differently with said character? For example I find lucas's dair to be quite amazing for things like shield pressure(Magnet -> DJC dair -> Jab/Dtilt), cross-ups, resets, and it's an amazing combo -> finisher move. Now how are two people who have both played the character quite a bit(I've probably put in 10x your hours lol as I've been playing 2.6 lucas for months) having such different opinions? I'll let you figure that one out.

I see so many people just looking at one move of a random character and taking it at face-value instead of figuring out how it works in unison with their characters other tools.

 

[Deleted member]

it's amazing that falcon is such a fast character and he's still so god damn boring.

ok here's falcon's MU chart in melee/PM:

can i dashdance spam and win for free? yes > good MU
can i dashdance spam and win for free? no > can i at least upair the character basically forever? yes > decent MU
can i dashdance spam and win for free? no > can i at least upair the character basically forever? no > impossible MU

character has 5 moves (all 5 aerials) and 2 throws basically and nothing else is viable. you could say jab but even that gets ***** by crouchgrab when people find the down button. and then he just loops the same stupid shit over and over again and it either works or it doesn't because the rest of the character is basically garbage. no adaptation, no strategic depth, nothing. oh i did downthrow and guessed you correctly twice i guess you're dead at 70%. oh i got hit by a launcher at 25% i guess i'm dead. what a stupid ass character.

the only defensible thing about falcon is that he's only the 2nd best DD spammer after sonic.

sonic is entirely indefensible and needs to die.

 

[trash?]

hylian what is your opinion on the boomerang change for link being a part of the wide-spread caption falcon conspiracy (trademarked by me as of right now)

 

[Hylian]

hylian what is your opinion on the boomerang change for link being a part of the wide-spread caption falcon conspiracy (trademarked by me as of right now)

I love the rang change...Not sure what you are talking about with the conspiracy.

 

[Wrestlemania]

You guys can hate on Falcon all you want, but if he was as good as he was in 64 I would be playing the crap out of him. I put my Blood Sweat and Tears into mastering that Spinning Wheel.

Edit: Just realized no one is going to get that joke.

 

[Scythe]

yooo i had been fiddling with lucas prior to 2.6 and I really feel he is considerably better. the new bair he has is loads better. I agree that dair isn't as good as in old one however but one of my favorite changes is the slight buff of sweetspot lucas fair which seems to kill at high percents now.

 

[Yung Mei]

i dont understand all these people complaining about how bad/repetitive/rinserepeat falcon is, why do you keep losing to the same strategy

get gud nerds

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falcon doesn't stop being boring once people get good enough to deal with him

He just becomes boring and terrible.

 

[trash?]

glass cannon isn't entertaining

guess it's time to add a shine

 

[Yung Mei]

honestly though, falcon does get boring to play

im pretty sure most of the reason why people like him is because of previous players who have done great with him and because hes the "underdog" of the top tiers or something

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's hard to be the underdog when you're using one of the most commonly seen characters in the game.

People like Falcon because Muay Thai is a stylish martial art and he has special effects on his hits.

 

[trash?]

kink, kink, kink, kink
hear me out here
captain falcon
with a shine

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well hey now that's an idea I can get behind.

 

[Yung Mei]

lets just change every movement to shine, thatll definitely balance the **** outta PM

even standing neutral, just making everyone shine

no jumping out of it either, cuz then someone will get butthurt and then we'll have to take out shine

 

[SpiderMad]

Woah you're right the Knees in there http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zKBDnifKo48&t=62

CF was super cool in Melee, it's just now there's Crass boy, Sexy lady, Turtlemon and Mike and peeps

 

[trash?]

shine is the answer to all problems

character not good enough? put a shine on em
can't play well enough? put a shine on em
economy running badly? PUT A SHINE ON EM
dealing with your crippling loneliness? s h i n e

 

[Yung Mei]

shine is the answer to all problems

character not good enough? put a shine on em
can't play well enough? put a shine on em
economy running badly? PUT A SHINE ON EM
dealing with your crippling loneliness? s h i n e

i dig this post

 

[metroid1117]

it's amazing that falcon is such a fast character and he's still so god damn boring.

ok here's falcon's MU chart in melee/PM:

can i dashdance spam and win for free? yes > good MU
can i dashdance spam and win for free? no > can i at least upair the character basically forever? yes > decent MU
can i dashdance spam and win for free? no > can i at least upair the character basically forever? no > impossible MU

character has 5 moves (all 5 aerials) and 2 throws basically and nothing else is viable. you could say jab but even that gets ***** by crouchgrab when people find the down button. and then he just loops the same stupid shit over and over again and it either works or it doesn't because the rest of the character is basically garbage. no adaptation, no strategic depth, nothing. oh i did downthrow and guessed you correctly twice i guess you're dead at 70%. oh i got hit by a launcher at 25% i guess i'm dead. what a stupid ass character.

the only defensible thing about falcon is that he's only the 2nd best DD spammer after sonic.

sonic is entirely indefensible and needs to die.

I chuckled at this really hard.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

So I'm the only one in here who hates Wario's new aerial sideb?

He lost his ability to mix up his recovery (and in a lot of cases, his ability to even recover at all), in exchange for what? A aerial finisher that he didn't need, and is more likely to get you punished for using it than actually kill anything? Every time I fall to my death when I know I should have recovered, I just sigh and shake my head.

 

[ItalianStallion]

...........I think Captain Falcon is cool.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm indifferent to Falcon. I recognize his limitations but also that he's badly designed and has too much power packed into his best-case scenario. I don't play him, incidentally, or really enjoy watching him much.

The reality is that most fans of melee don't want a balanced falcon though, they want a medicore-but-"manly" rushdown character that does what he does and loses. After he loses, they want to lather whatever Falcon player with large amounts of praise for playing an underpowered character; this pride and this echo chamber is what makes Falcon so popular, really. Falcon, the hero of the people. Falcon is the flashiest underdog ever, and people love that. I think that any attempt at balancing him would result in an enormous backlash from most of the community and probably wouldn't be worth the headache.

Falcon is designed such that any meaningful buff to him in his current state would be ridiculously unfun for everyone that isn't Falcon. He's not the best but it's probably better to leave him be.

 

[Wrestlemania]

It would be really interesting to see what would happen if you gave melee falcon 64 f and usmash as his f and utilt. Or even just the usmash as utilt.

 

[Juushichi]

falcon's anti air is DD grab, so idk about the utilt thing.

as for fire fsmash being his ftilt, maybe I guess. idk tho

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I'm the only one in here who hates Wario's new aerial sideb?

He lost his ability to mix up his recovery (and in a lot of cases, his ability to even recover at all), in exchange for what? A aerial finisher that he didn't need, and is more likely to get you punished for using it than actually kill anything? Every time I fall to my death when I know I should have recovered, I just sigh and shake my head.

Wario didn't really have a Forward-B recovery in 2.5. If the extra distance was able to let you live when Up-B alone wouldn't, you were easy pickings for an edgeguard.

Because you can end Forward-B early with Back, it's arguably better for recovery now than it was.

Either way, Wario's always had one of the worst recoveries.

It was definitely a buff, considering it's not completely useless to use offensively.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

It was definitely a buff, considering it's not completely useless to use offensively.

That's false, because before, you could actually get out of scenarios where you were being edgeguarded by going over your opponent's head. You might still get hit, but at least you're probably over the stage and trying to land, rather than offstage and falling to your doom. Wario is good at landing, so it's a significantly better scenario.

Also, considering the scenario where you use it to go low and get edgeguarded during the slow bounce? I'll take it. At least opponents drop edgeguards, and fail to seize opportunities once in awhile. With the short ass sideb, they don't even have to seize the opportunity, cuz you're already dead. You can reliably edgeguard Fox and Falco's recoveries too, but people **** it up all the time because they can mix up whether they go high or low.

And yes, you say Wario's recovery was never really all that great. I agree ,which is why I'm so pissed that now it's worse. It's not like he had a ****ing glide or some ****, like a bunch of other characters have. No, he had some very reasonable, semi versatile options, and they still saw fit to nerf it.

And yes, it is completely useless, offensively. Wario has great aerials for killing. Uair and Bair can kill, and he can even waft in the air. Why would I ever want to sacrifice aerial mobility, and forfeit all safety, for some predictable, linear kill move that lags like a ***** and will get you punished for whiffing it?

 

[DMG]

His air Side B is more forgiving to miss with but it's a worse overall recovery move. I would have liked to see the angled versions have more of a difference, either in momemtum after the move was over or the angles widened between up and down to make it feel actually different. It's also basically gonna be near impossible to edge cancel this on a platform during 90% of reasonable recovery scenarios. My only 2 quips about the move: still like the character very much overall.

On that note, Reflex was his Dsmash nerfed? I feel like I'm not nearly catching people the same who are airborne/offstage with this move. Did they tone down the hitbox or am I sucky mc fudge fingers?

 

[Nemiak temp]

From about 50-70 more hours of play this week, I can easily say that Lucas is significantly worse with his new Dair attack but I'm indifferent towards his bair. They're both great for different reasons.

I can say that G&W and Ivysaur have improved significantly, and I cannot express how much fun I'm having with Zelda. Is her Din's Fire shorter length of mine rest but exploding more powerfully? God I love her traps and set up very good walls for combos.

I would have to say Zelda has moved up to mid to mid-low tier and Game and Watch is definitely mid tier now. Lucas is kind of down.

No way Jose is Lucas worse. I hated the new(old?) dair at first but it is pretty superior to the 2.5 dair. The only thing I miss about it is being able to space with it against characters with balls for range. New bair is balla though. Hitting the sweetspot off the stage is almost like landing a falco dair now its too good. G&W didn't really get much of an improvement other than the completely unnecessary giant bacon and some dots. His Ftilt is slightly worse and his dash attack is arguably worse now. (Though the way it is now it can combo into the DACUS making a pretty sweet looking combo). Zelda is broken.