Tier List Speculation

[Scuba Steve]

Ganon's hitboxes are great, they're just attached to Ganon lol. Those grab boxes would be good on a character that has a good enough dash to get into people's faces quickly but Ganon is anything but that

 

[CORY]

Also, buttgrabs are stupid. That was actually changed to match melee or some ****, instead of making it sensical. His biggest issue grabwise is going over a lot of stupid stuff, making it worse than it should be.

And what scuba said about his hitboxes in general. He has some ianky invisible disjoint on all kinds of stuff and is only sorta midtier, bcuz ganon. I'd like to see some of that stuff cleaned up (fair, bair, dair, f/dtilt, especially) in exchange for slightly end lag on ftilt, slightly higher angle on dtilt (maaaaaaybe, it:s pretty good as is...) and a frame 10 or 9 iasa on float.

#allimo

 

[Beorn]

Oh, ganon doesn't need hitbubble fixes... It's just maylay guys.



#Bull****

 

[steelguttey]

new olimar mu spread tell me im wrong
after rethinking it i realized that i have 10 bad mu's and 7 good and everything else is even so still not bad at all

 

[D e l t a]

new olimar mu spread tell me im wrong
after rethinking it i realized that i have 10 bad mu's and 7 good and everything else is even so still not bad at all

Once again my Brawl Oli background making PM Oli in comparison seem much worse and therefore easier for me to beat, but I think Lucas has advantage in the MU. Probably just barely +1 now due to buffs on Oli and Lucas slight changes, but overall the same

Curious however, why is Sheik even? I'd honestly like to hear your thoughts on that matchup. It seems like it would be terrible, personally. Love to hear your thoughts on Oli's advantages.

 

[steelguttey]

with lucas, i dont know after playing gp and ant at my locals it seems even. while pk freeze is very very frustrating, it also loses to pikmin so i can kinda maneuver around them with wavebounced down b's and throw pikmin at them when i really need the space. his pressure game once he touches my shield is pretty crazy but he also cant throw freezes or do anything but nair if i get a pikmin on him. its a very positional matchup.

sheik WAS awful in 3.5 but ever since oli got the buff of having less than 4 pikmin, i can now have the lineup of purple, red, and yellow which lets my punish game be better than hers (especially after bthrow nerfs) and since my short hop is so low i can punish her for jumping really hard and never let her come down after i get a fair off. her edgeguarding on me got better because jetpack sucks but i think the mu is very even now.

 

[D e l t a]

How many pikmin has Oli had over the patches? (or if there's an update compilation somewhere that I could skim) I could never really keep track :/

 

[Soft Serve]

How many pikmin has Oli had over the patches? (or if there's an update compilation somewhere that I could skim) I could never really keep track :/

He means the best part (only good part) about jet pack up b is thay you can actually recover if you're trying to play with just 1-3 pikmin. Gives him more freedom for onstage play at the cost of having the worst recovery in the game, only rivaled by dk and bowser is badness

 

[steelguttey]

it really rivals falcon in badness because of how similar they are, but yea. having less than 4 pikmin means i can have more pikmin that are good for each matchup more often. problem with this is that theres always a chance i can never ever get that kind of pikmin because of rng so its like

 

[Player -0]

I mean attached to Ganon they suck because he's slow af. Boost pivot grab fixes this.

I'm pretty sure you can get it from jab at low mid percents among other things.

 

[SoulPech]

Are we still talking about Jiggs? I can go over some stuff w/ her if anyone actually cares (lol)

 

[D e l t a]

Are we still talking about Jiggs? I can go over some stuff w/ her if anyone actually cares (lol)

Curious how you feel about Jiggs v Bowser (any version of him really)

 

[SoulPech]

I actually thought that 3.5 it was in Bowsers favor slightly because his recovery is better and his body was so huge that his hitboxes could kill jiggs early (and super armor was dumb). The saving graces in this matchup are he's combo food and I can literally create a flowchart with like 8 moves that combos into rest.

Now that he's smaller and they changed the sizes of his hitbox, I'm not scared of him. It's in Jiggs' favor. Just a rough analysis

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Pech, dont take this as a personal attack. But why does the "super armor" misinformation come up soooo often. Its incredibly frustrating. You would think by this point enough people would be corrected that it would regress, but most people seem to be unwilling to put the effort in to learn pm stuff. Maybe some dont care even if they know, but I can't wrap my head around that stance.

 

[CORY]

I mean attached to Ganon they suck because he's slow af. Boost pivot grab fixes this.

I'm pretty sure you can get it from jab at low mid percents among other things.

I think I get what you're saying, but they don't really suck, ganon actually has some real good aerials. Their applications are held back, due to being attached to the sixth slowest character in the game with a five frame jump squat and so-so aerial drift (iirc....), but they're pretty much all really good (with exception of Nair. It's so bad now...).

I think that's what you were going for, anyway?

 

[Bazkip]

Pech, dont take this as a personal attack. But why does the "super armor" misinformation come up soooo often. Its incredibly frustrating. You would think by this point enough people would be corrected that it would regress, but most people seem to be unwilling to put the effort in to learn pm stuff. Maybe some dont care even if they know, but I can't wrap my head around that stance.

The funniest part about it is that he didn't have any super armour before, but now he does. Granted that's only on fully charged Smashes so it's irrelevant but...still there.

 

[Player -0]

I think I get what you're saying, but they don't really suck, ganon actually has some real good aerials. Their applications are held back, due to being attached to the sixth slowest character in the game with a five frame jump squat and so-so aerial drift (iirc....), but they're pretty much all really good (with exception of Nair. It's so bad now...).

I think that's what you were going for, anyway?

I was referring strictly to grab and how Ganon could get grabs more

._________.

Yeah Ganon's aerials are pretty good.

 

[JOE!]

That Charizard flamethrower float is ridiculous. Could you imagine the crazy **** you could do with that off stage.

As I keep saying, the outer portion of the Fire doesnt deal stun so you'd have to be close to actually hti people out of stuff. Secondly, as seen in the video the end lag is such that at the edge of BF I drop down to the bottom and need both jumps and Up B to return, on top of Hovering eating your ability to Glide (and vice versa). Its still unfinished though

 

[Downdraft]

When are we going to discuss the character results of IaB 65, or are we waiting for the conclusion of LTC3?

 

[The_NZA]

When are we going to discuss the character results of IaB 65, or are we waiting for the conclusion of LTC3?

What were the character results?

 

[Boiko]

What were the character results?

1.) ROB/Charizard
2.) Diddy Kong/Ganondorf
3.) Marth/Roy/Tink
4.) Roy
5.) Lucario
5.) Bowser/Charizard/Yoshi
7.) D3/Samus
7.) whoever merza plays. Ganondorf?
9.) Meta Knight
9.) Lucario
9.) Yoshi/Peach/Charizard
9.) Ike

Nothing too surprising here, tbh.

 

[The_NZA]

1.) ROB/Charizard (Oracle)
2.) Diddy Kong/Ganondorf (JBug)
3.) Marth/Roy/Tink (Lunchables)
4.) Roy (Sethlon)
5.) Lucario (IPK)
5.) Bowser/Charizard/Yoshi (Odds)
7.) D3/Samus (Ripple)
7.) whoever merza plays. Ganondorf?
9.) Meta Knight (Strongbad?)
9.) Lucario
9.) Yoshi/Peach/Charizard
9.) Ike

Nothing too surprising here, tbh.

Who are the players that I missed?

 

[JOE!]

Guessing Oracle won...?

Also, cool to see 3 zards

 

[Boiko]

Who are the players that I missed?

Double (Lucario), Oven (Peach, Yoshi, Zard), and Metroid (Ike).

Edit: http://tloc.challonge.com/Iab65 here's the bracket.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Guys, another reason to remove Sheilda:

Why does one annoying character transform into another annoying character. Couldn't they combine 2 cool characters or at least 1 cool and 1 ****elord character to even it out. Fundamental balancing issues holy cr@p.

 

[JOE!]

Because @4tlas will actually kill people irl

 

[CORY]

When are we going to discuss the character results of IaB 65, or are we waiting for the conclusion of LTC3?

iab results are important, but i'd say ltc3 are far more so, and that's only a few days away.

like, even if iab has largely the same players as ltc3 will, the stakes are going to be higher and the players who are in ltc3 but not at this week's iab are possibly big game changers.

 

[Trollinguy]

I think we should just make a Sheilda page and link to it everytime it comes up (one on smashboards, not the reddit one)... not that there isnt already a ton of pages about this already.

Edit: and before you say you cant counter-pick sheilda, you absolutely can. Zelda and sheik both struggle against characters with strong dash dances, like mk and squirtman.

 

[Ripple]

I lost to 2 lucarios ugh

 

[JOE!]

As I mentioned earlier, me and @4tlas were discussing Sheilda and there is an interesting can of worms that he brought up:

theres a few things we have to work around here, and its a problem. Because the 2 characters weren't intertwined much to start with (and because Zelda has always sucked), we ended up with Zelda players and Sheik players. We also have Sheilda players. Forcing Transforming would hurt Zelda and Sheik players, removing Transforming would kill Sheilda players. Attaching Transform to the new move wouldn't affect Zelda or Sheik players, they'd be at the same spot they were previously. But at that point, why add it? Those are the players that are missing a move, not Sheilda players

 

[Boiko]

I lost to 2 lucarios ugh

Use more upb, and FIRE DOWN TILT IS REALLY GOOD IN THAT MATCH UP, AS IS FIRE UP SMASH AND FAIR. MAYBE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER USING IT.

As I mentioned earlier, me and @4tlas were discussing Sheilda and there is an interesting can of worms that he brought up:

Sorry, I don't sympathize with Sheilda players. No matter what way you slice it, no player should be able to use two viable characters at once. Balance wise, design wise, however you want to look at it, it's way off the spectrum.

Edit: Totally not going to get into ANOTHER Shielda debate, btw.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

1.) ROB/Charizard
2.) Diddy Kong/Ganondorf
3.) Marth/Roy/Tink
4.) Roy
5.) Lucario
5.) Bowser/Charizard/Yoshi
7.) D3/Samus
7.) whoever merza plays. Ganondorf?
9.) Meta Knight
9.) Lucario
9.) Yoshi/Peach/Charizard
9.) Ike

Nothing too surprising here, tbh.

I would really like to know how many matches Odds actually used bowser and won because this skews bowser as still good

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Lets talk about Odds tho, he was winning neutral a stupid amount against really good players. Holy crap Odds is a ****ing God. Imagine if he mained a playable character ;_;

 

[Journal]

I would really like to know how many matches Odds actually used bowser and won because this skews bowser as still good

Or maybe Odds is just really good.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Can we tag odds so he can answer, I get it that he is good, but i know if pmdt make changes based off 1 players results (which they have done before) then bowser will be forever bad and I dont want that. And yea odds is really good, but i have a feeling he used bowser against players he knew he could win against or maybe he figured out something that i didnt about the character

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Or maybe Odds is just really good.

If you watched the tournament you would know that Bowser still sucks, Odds is just a god.

Edit: Bowser actually looked okay game 1 vs lunchables, but that was just because Lunchables didn't bother to DI

 

[Boiko]

Can we tag odds so he can answer

@Odds_

Glad I could help.

 

[D e l t a]

Guys....imagine if Odds played Fox...... 0.0

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I see, can i trouble someone to link some matches? I didnt see them in youtube when i searched by name

 

[Sardonyx]

No more shielda debates until it legitimately harms the game please.