Tier List Speculation

[TheoryofSmaug]

Guys....imagine if Odds played Fox...... 0.0

If Odds had pushed any other characters meta as far as he has pushed Bowsers he would be unarguably one of the best PM players. That man has done for Bowser what IPK has done for Lucario.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

If Odds had pushed any other characters meta as far as he has pushed Bowsers he would be unarguably one of the best PM players. That man has done for Bowser what IPK has done for Lucario.

So Is bowser gonna get a buff or will people not be happy until the turtle cant even walk

 

[JOE!]

No more shielda debates until it legitimately harms the game please.

Do people even play Shielda? I see 8904723948625 sheiks, a few zeldas... and I only know of Atlas who plays Shielda. Why do they get to keep transform when the pokemon were split up?

#meleeIlluminati

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Yea, why do people want Shielda around?

 

[Boiko]

I see, can i trouble someone to link some matches? I didnt see them in youtube when i searched by name

Check past broadcasts of twitch.tv/projectmcentral

They haven't been uploaded yet.

 

[Sardonyx]

Do people even play Shielda? I see 8904723948625 sheiks, a few zeldas... and I only know of Atlas who plays Shielda. Why do they get to keep transform when the pokemon were split up?

#meleeIlluminati

Iirc the thing with pokemon and Samus/ZSS was explained months ago but I forget what they said. I would be all for transform being removed if there weren't people who legitimately play both characters during a match, and if the DT could give both characters a good special.

I have faith in the DT, but seeing how underwhelming dins is now, I would rather it stay.

 

[JOE!]

So, the only reason you're cool with Transform is because Din's is crap? I'm sure we can come up with a cool new down B for each (and a useful, if niche, side B for Sheik lol).

Like, what if Zelda could fire a nerfed Light Arrow, and Sheik could (with lag) toss a deku nut at the ground like a ninja smoke bomb?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

So, the only reason you're cool with Transform is because Din's is crap? I'm sure we can come up with a cool new down B for each (and a useful, if niche, side B for Sheik lol).

Like, what if Zelda could fire a nerfed Light Arrow, and Sheik could (with lag) toss a deku nut at the ground like a ninja smoke bomb?

I like this idea, but did dins get nerfed or something? I thought it was pretty good

 

[Boiko]

No more shielda debates until it legitimately harms the game please.

That's not how things should work... Also, Din's is hella good when used properly.

BUT THAT'S ENOUGH SHIELDA TALK FOR ME, SERIOUSLY.

 

[Narelex]

Can confirm Odds is super good.

The guy was winning with the equivalent of a BB gun against actual firearms. I'm curious to see who he will pull out at LTC3.

 

[SoulPech]

Pech, dont take this as a personal attack. But why does the "super armor" misinformation come up soooo often. Its incredibly frustrating. You would think by this point enough people would be corrected that it would regress, but most people seem to be unwilling to put the effort in to learn pm stuff. Maybe some dont care even if they know, but I can't wrap my head around that stance.

(and super armor was dumb)....stuff stuff stuff......Just a rough analysis

Spoiler

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Odds' Bowser is ridiculous. I wonder how he'll perform at LTC3.
He has some videos on SpiderMad's channel, PMDepot.: https://www.youtube.com/user/PMDepot

 

[Sardonyx]

So, the only reason you're cool with Transform is because Din's is crap? I'm sure we can come up with a cool new down B for each (and a useful, if niche, side B for Sheik lol).

Like, what if Zelda could fire a nerfed Light Arrow, and Sheik could (with lag) toss a deku nut at the ground like a ninja smoke bomb?

I would gladly embrace the thought of Zelda having a light arrow projectile so she could somewhat force approaches better, and that sheik idea would fit with her character perfectly. Out of all the times I've asked people to give a theoretical move, you're the only one who has answered (an interesting answer at that.

That's not how things should work... Also, Din's is hella good when used properly.

BUT THAT'S ENOUGH SHIELDA TALK FOR ME, SERIOUSLY.

Dins is underwhelming is all. Also if you don't wanna talk sheilda, don't comment when she's brought up lol

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Can confirm Odds is super good.

The guy was winning with the equivalent of a BB gun against actual firearms. I'm curious to see who he will pull out at LTC3.

I'm hoping he will play Bowser until he gets to a matchup that he can't win with Bowser, and then I'm guessing we will see Yoshi?

I just really hope the PMDT releases 3.6 pre Paragon and that it has enough Bowser buffs to give Odds a return for all the hours and love he has sunk into the character.

 

[Warzenschwein]

No more shielda debates until it legitimately harms the game please.

"This pile of doo doo butter doesn't stink that much, don't remove it."

 

[Bazkip]

Odds' Bowser is ridiculous. I wonder how he'll perform at LTC3.
He has a really cool YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/PMDepot

That's @SpiderMad's account, not Odds. SpiderMad just lets a few other people upload vids to it.

 

[4tlas]

Do people even play Shielda? I see 8904723948625 sheiks, a few zeldas... and I only know of Atlas who plays Shielda. Why do they get to keep transform when the pokemon were split up?

#meleeIlluminati

Pokemon were split up because you couldn't choose the order in which you Transformed (and I don't remember if it was also needed to remove the stamina mechanic). Samus and ZSS were split because the transform was in the Final Smash and forced. I'd also believe Samus lost transform and Zelda kept it because they wanted both to be like their Melee incarnation, but I hope that wasn't the main reason.

I would gladly embrace the thought of Zelda having a light arrow projectile so she could somewhat force approaches better, and that sheik idea would fit with her character perfectly. Out of all the times I've asked people to give a theoretical move, you're the only one who has answered (an interesting answer at that.

Joe! and I were talking and I suggested to remove chain, put needles on sideB, and make neutral B a deku nut counter or dimensional cape type thing (deku dimensional cape would have to be on sideB I think). The idea is to give her a more useful move than chain but make it so situational that it wouldn't be much of a buff or become centralizing in a new playstyle.

There was a suggestion to put Transform on a taunt (severely nerfing the move by preventing air usage which is safest) and give Zelda and Sheik new moves. This would be a buff to Zelda and Sheik, but depending on the strength of the move might not be a buff for Sheilda due to the loss of aerial transform.

There was a suggestion to attach a move to Transform, but I said that it would only buff Sheilda when its Zelda and Sheik that are missing a move.

There have been suggestions to attach Transform to other moves, but then that intertwines Zelda and Sheik and forces all the Zelda and Sheik players to play Sheilda.

You can't force Transform because that would be very close to removing 2 characters (Zelda and Sheik) and adding 1 (Sheilda). You can't remove Transform outright because that would literally be removing a character (Sheilda) from the game. If you want to change Transform to hamper or prevent CSS abuse, there are ways to do that without removing it outright.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Spoiler

And it couldn't be a rough analysis if you were actually correct? Or everyone gets what you mean, so why bother being correct and accurate? We are talking about a character who required a lot of mu specific knowledge. Spreading misinformation about how he operates doesn't help that. When people go on about Squirtle complaints (lol) that are wrong, even I understand what they mean, I still correct them. Being correct, especially when its not hard, is always preferrable because it hurts newer players who now think one thing is called another or thinking they can't touch Bowser during parts of his moves because think its super armor. I just dont understand why you would be wrong when you know what's right and its not hard to do correctly.

 

[JOE!]

Bralw- removed stamina and had it so you could swap order by down DownB+L/R

You can't force Transform because that would be very close to removing 2 characters (Zelda and Sheik) and adding 1 (Sheilda). You can't remove Transform outright because that would literally be removing a character (Sheilda) from the game. If you want to change Transform to hamper or prevent CSS abuse, there are ways to do that without removing it outright.

When you put it that way it sounds like quite a pickle... like, Sheik and Zelda are separate characters, but then Sheilda is apparently also a separate character? But, Sheilda encompasses Zelda and Sheik at the same time... etc

 

[The_NZA]

You can't force Transform because that would be very close to removing 2 characters (Zelda and Sheik) and adding 1 (Sheilda). You can't remove Transform outright because that would literally be removing a character (Sheilda) from the game. If you want to change Transform to hamper or prevent CSS abuse, there are ways to do that without removing it outright.

The only way I see making it so switching to Zelda and Sheik isn't abusable is creating a fail window where if you hit the character, the transform fails. I really think if someone actually became really good with both characters, it would be insanely overpowering.

 

[DrinkingFood]

lmao
if bowser woulda lost, ya'll woulda been like "see, odds is a great player but he can't rescue bowser from teh nerfs!"
then odds gets fifth with bowser at IaB 65
"wow odds is amazing! he totally overcame character nerfs!"
Or maybe, you know, it's exactly what I was saying
Bowser isn't nerfed lol
people talking about Odds doing great in neutral. No ****ing surprise, bowser's DD is kinda good now. Flame breath has even more reach. He still breaks CC at most of the same percents. I don't consider armor very relevant in neutral, except on dash attack, but now that his DD is way better there are much better options to beating approaches then dash attacking through them. Like DD. Like CC dsmash (which is usable and the new angle makes it a reversal tool for sending opponents off stage when they have you cornered). Like good fundies. The armor he lost was something that shouldn't have been much of a factor for neutral anyways. As for his punish game being weak, I would buy that it's mostly marginal. He still has the power to force people offstage at very low percents and gimp them for trying to go low, and any number of other things for trying to go high. He still takes most of the stage from the opponent for any isolated hits. A grab should be a dead opponent what with uthrow existing as it does, and the improved DD should be a drastic boon to getting grabs.
Tried to believe this character was nerfed, couldn't do it, still can't; but everybody was a bit busy riding Odds ****, because "he genuinely tried to like 3.6 bowser at first!" as if that means that he's going to understand the character right away, or implying that he already had the fundamentals for the character when he leveled up USING a jank character that can't teach fundamentals nearly as quickly. I have first hand experience with this; I play ROB. I didn't expect Odds to be able to use DDing to its full potential really, so its no surprise he doesn't really see the size of that buff; it's just a shame that every other bowser main seems to have just bandwagoned on his opinion the moment they felt uncomfortable with new bowser.

 

[4tlas]

The only way I see making it so switching to Zelda and Sheik isn't abusable is creating a fail window where if you hit the character, the transform fails. I really think if someone actually became really good with both characters, it would be insanely overpowering.

This already happens. You mean if you hit the unloaded space while she's transforming? I don't think that's possible.

If you want to prevent CSS abuse by picking one, Transforming to the other, and then STAYING as the other, then force them to start each stock as the originally selected character and disallow Transform for a certain amount of time after spawn.

 

[steelguttey]

yoooo were circlejerking ODDS now? can i be next?

odds is super good but like, pm bowser sucks compared to the rest of the game, which means he still sucks, but hes still the only character in the game thats notably bad right now, its not like hes playing melee kirby. pm bowser is like, melee pikachu in terms of viability rn if you wanna make comparisons

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

So what's really protecting Sheilda from the Pokemon Trainer treatment?

 

[steelguttey]

So what's really protecting Sheilda from the Pokemon Trainer treatment?

Super Smash Bros. Melee (Japanese: 大乱闘だいらんとうスマッシュブラザーズDXデラックス Hepburn: Dairantō Sumasshu Burazāzu Derakkusu?, lit. "Great Melee Smash Brothers DX", with "DX" pronounced as "deluxe"), often abbreviated as SSBM or simply as Melee, is a crossover fighting game released for the Nintendo GameCube shortly after its launch in 2001 (2002 in the PAL region). It is the second game in the Super Smash Bros. series, following the first game released for Nintendo 64 in 1999. HAL Laboratory developed the game, with Masahiro Sakurai as head of production.

The game features characters from Nintendo video game franchises such as Mario, The Legend of Zelda, Star Fox and Pokémon. Melee includes all playable characters from the first game in the series on the Nintendo 64, but it also adds new characters from franchises such as Fire Emblem, of which no games had been released outside of Japan at the time. The stages and gameplay modes make references to, or take their designs from, popular games released by Nintendo.[1] Melee‍ 's gameplay system offers an unorthodox approach to the fighting game genre with a counter that measures damage with percentages, rather than the health barseen in most fighting games.[2][3] It builds on the first game by adding new gameplay features and playable characters. Following the popularity of its multiplayer gameplay, Melee has been featured in many competitive gaming tournaments and is still the most popular Smash title for competitive play.

The game received universal acclaim from the media, as well as awards and acknowledgements from gaming publications. It achieved strong sales upon release,[4][5] and is the GameCube's best-selling game, with more than 7 million copies sold as of March 10, 2008.[6]

 

[tasteless gentleman]

lmao
if bowser woulda lost, ya'll woulda been like "see, odds is a great player but he can't rescue bowser from teh nerfs!"
then odds gets fifth with bowser at IaB 65
"wow odds is amazing! he totally overcame character nerfs!"
Or maybe, you know, it's exactly what I was saying
Bowser isn't nerfed lol
people talking about Odds doing great in neutral. No ****ing surprise, bowser's DD is kinda good now. Flame breath has even more reach. He still breaks CC at most of the same percents. I don't consider armor very relevant in neutral, except on dash attack, but now that his DD is way better there are much better options to beating approaches then dash attacking through them. Like DD. Like CC dsmash (which is usable and the new angle makes it a reversal tool for sending opponents off stage when they have you cornered). Like good fundies. The armor he lost was something that shouldn't have been much of a factor for neutral anyways. As for his punish game being weak, I would buy that it's mostly marginal. He still has the power to force people offstage at very low percents and gimp them for trying to go low, and any number of other things for trying to go high. He still takes most of the stage from the opponent for any isolated hits. A grab should be a dead opponent what with uthrow existing as it does, and the improved DD should be a drastic boon to getting grabs.
Tried to believe this character was nerfed, couldn't do it, still can't; but everybody was a bit busy riding Odds ****, because "he genuinely tried to like 3.6 bowser at first!" as if that means that he's going to understand the character right away, or implying that he already had the fundamentals for the character when he leveled up USING a jank character that can't tech fundamentals nearly as quickly. I have first hand experience with this; I play ROB. I didn't expect Odds to be able to use DDing to its full potential really, so its no surprise he doesn't really see the size of that buff; it's just a shame that every other bowser main seems to have just bandwagoned on his opinion the moment the felt uncomfortable with new bowser.

I had no idea you mained bowser and therefore could correctly analyze this character... Bowser is nerfed, if not unviable. BUT, this is what i discovered my first week using him in a tournament when the game came out, no one new what to expect and i beat players i never beat before (also i was playing retreat and punish style more but thats besides the point)

Point is, you are just another player who doesnt main bowser who is claiming "bowser is not bad he is just different"

Numbers and change lists dont lie. Even the "buffs" he got came with underlying nerfs (IE size, flame, speed)

And they gutted some of the moves entirely and said "but we made it faster, this is cool right?" (smash attacks, KK, dash attack)

Hes for sure worse, ill happily dig into the change list and pick out every single change and explain why its a nerf or buff if you would like.

Odds is just inspirationally good, bowser is not

 

[Sardonyx]

So what's really protecting Sheilda from the Pokemon Trainer treatment?

The fact that both characters respective movesets (particularly zelda's) would need to be compensated in exchange, and the DT would need to create an entirely new ability to replace transform that is useful.

But lets say you buff Zelda. What happens? Complaints that she's too strong, that she's un fun to play against. People will act as if she's 3.02 Zelda all over again (even though this zelda was better in every way).

 

[eideeiit]

Yea, why do people want Shielda around?

They don't.

But the lizards...

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Super Smash Bros. Melee (Japanese: 大乱闘だいらんとうスマッシュブラザーズDXデラックス Hepburn: Dairantō Sumasshu Burazāzu Derakkusu?, lit. "Great Melee Smash Brothers DX", with "DX" pronounced as "deluxe") ...

It was super effective!

The fact that both characters respective movesets (particularly zelda's) would need to be compensated in exchange, and the DT would need to create an entirely new ability to replace transform that is useful.

But lets say you buff Zelda. What happens? Complaints that she's too strong, that she's un fun to play against. People will act as if she's 3.02 Zelda all over again (even though this zelda was better in every way).

That doesn't answer the question, since Pokémon Trainer went through the same process.

 

[Sardonyx]

It was super effective!



That doesn't answer the question, since Pokémon Trainer went through the same process.

Like I said, if you buffed Zelda, people would scream broken if they eat a LK to the face. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be hard. Not to mention there are the few sheilda players that would literally be alienated from the playerbase.

 

[Rᴏb]

But lets say you buff Zelda. What happens? Complaints that she's too strong, that she's un fun to play against. People will act as if she's 3.02 Zelda all over again (even though this zelda was better in every way).

Or, ya know, people accept her buffs and thank the PMDT for not giving her anything remotely similar to what she had in 3.02, because it's pretty much impossible to create a character that boring to play against twice. I dunno why you're assuming the worst would come from removing transform of all things.

 

[4tlas]

Pokemon Trainer was not removed, it was just never added to PM. There already exist Sheilda players who play PM for whom you would be removing their character from the game.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Like I said, if you buffed Zelda, people would scream broken if they eat a LK to the face. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be hard. Not to mention there are the few sheilda players that would literally be alienated from the playerbase.

It probably won't be the end of the world. I don't agree with current Zelda either, but what's the worst that could happen?

Pokemon Trainer was not removed, it was just never added to PM. There already exist Sheilda players who play PM for whom you would be removing their character from the game.

PM defined as a mod first and foremost, effectively removed Pokémon Trainer and split his Pokémon into 3 different characters and balanced them accordingly.

 

[eideeiit]

Pokemon Trainer was not removed, it was just never added to PM. There already exist Sheilda players who play PM for whom you would be removing their character from the game.

I'd say you'd only remove their ability of switching between their mains midmatch.

 

[Sardonyx]

Pretty much my stance on transform: If you're gonna remove it, go ahead, but properly compensate the characters in the process. As it stands now, Zelda is not strong enough to be by herself in the meta. Buff her and give her a useable down b and I'll be fine with it. I personally don't play sheik, but the people who play both of them will feel bad because what they love is removed from the game.

 

[JOE!]

In all fairness, PT players never even got their character into PM in the first place going by that example.

I think this may be a "greater good" type of scenario. Like, how many Sheildas are there really compared to Solo Sheiks/Zeldas? Does Sheilda even really "count" as a character in that regard? Its not like you are actually influencing them together due to the time it takes to transform (Like, if you could grab with Sheik, throw, transform, and combo into a kick... that'd be Sheilda to me). But whenever I've seen a sheilda... its just Sheik doing Sheik stuff and Zelda doing Zelda stuff. Where is the cohesion between them as a unit? Its not even a stance swap as one doesnt particularly do something better than the other in my limited knowledge: both do great combos, get a lot off grab, have killer Fairs, kinda poopy neutral games in exchange for awesome punish... the main differences I see is that Sheik has better edgeguards and much worse recovery while zelda is kindof opposite.

If it were like Mario and Luigi swapping that'd make more sense as it's more of a stance thing where the two are very similar but have big key differences to make swapping worthwhile, but as I see it Zelda/Sheik swapping is like grandfathered in fanservice.

 

[Boiko]

Deff had his first tournament win just the other day, beating out a lot of strong players with 3.6 Bowser.

He wrote, "Gotta hold it down for my Bowser mains!"

There is more than one Bowser player, guys.

 

[4tlas]

In all fairness, PT players never even got their character into PM in the first place going by that example.

I think this may be a "greater good" type of scenario. Like, how many Sheildas are there really compared to Solo Sheiks/Zeldas? Does Sheilda even really "count" as a character in that regard? Its not like you are actually influencing them together due to the time it takes to transform (Like, if you could grab with Sheik, throw, transform, and combo into a kick... that'd be Sheilda to me). But whenever I've seen a sheilda... its just Sheik doing Sheik stuff and Zelda doing Zelda stuff. Where is the cohesion between them as a unit? Its not even a stance swap as one doesnt particularly do something better than the other in my limited knowledge: both do great combos, get a lot off grab, have killer Fairs, kinda poopy neutral games in exchange for awesome punish... the main differences I see is that Sheik has better edgeguards and much worse recovery while zelda is kindof opposite.

If it were like Mario and Luigi swapping that'd make more sense as it's more of a stance thing where the two are very similar but have big key differences to make swapping worthwhile, but as I see it Zelda/Sheik swapping is like grandfathered in fanservice.

I can appreciate the argument that is it a good idea to remove Transform for the greater good, sacrificing the few Sheilda players in the process. What would be better is to CHANGE Transform for the greater good, hurting the few Sheilda players in the process.

I actually find a lot of cohesion between them. I have gotten legitimate Sheilda combos before. We need to play again, as I think the last time we played I still was more of a Zelda/Sheik player and not a Sheilda.

 

[Journal]

I would gladly embrace the thought of Zelda having a light arrow projectile so she could somewhat force approaches better, and that sheik idea would fit with her character perfectly. Out of all the times I've asked people to give a theoretical move, you're the only one who has answered (an interesting answer at that.


Dins is underwhelming is all. Also if you don't wanna talk sheilda, don't comment when she's brought up lol

If it was made right it could be really cool if the smoke bomb thing would just be a non moving vanish. Could be cool for recovery mixups.

 

[Sempai]

I think removing transform is a great idea. As a sheik player for nearly ten years, Sheiks and Zeldas would appreciate it greatly.