Tier List Speculation

[Narelex]

I still have PTSD about 3.02 Mario in general.

How does everyone feel about the Plumbers current state?

 

[Binary Clone]

Im saying that these options are good in the air vs. air scenerio when they would be used (both characters are in the air and player B is getting ready to try to juggle or hit player A)

I dont think you been hit by ivy's dair while it the air, it hurtles you into the ground.
Wario will be out of his dair before he lands so l cancel doesnt matter.
and bowser bomb is hard to avoid without air dodging if your right under him

The problem with all of these examples is that you're somehow assuming that you're both very, very high in the air for some reason, when this rarely occurs in the first place.

Wario has to be pretty damn high to use dair and get out of the animation before landing. If he's using it from that high, the odds of him hitting anything are slim to none, and all the opponent has to do is nothing and then they can punish Wario's straight-line commitment with whatever they want. Using dair at a space where you'd be out of the animation before hitting the ground is a silly thing to do, and is very, very easily reacted to.

One of my main practice partners was an Ivy main for months. I've been hit by it, but it's a terrible descent option because it's punishable, low damage, vulnerable, and easy to bait while being a huge commitment to the vertical movement.

Bowser bomb is easy to avoid in almost any scenario outside of hitstun. Don't kid yourself. If you get hit by an aerial Bowser Bomb while you are also in the air, it means you have massively overcommitted and been read.

If both characters are in the air and player B is trying to juggle or hit player A, there are very few scenarios in which B is so committed to their movement and action that any of these options aren't reactable. If they are, then they are also probably not directly underneath A where they could even be hit by those moves, and if they are underneath them as well, then proper spacing means that they either get their hit, or don't get hit.

 

[Jonyc128]

I still have PTSD about 3.02 Mario in general.

How does everyone feel about the Plumbers current state?

I feel like Mario's in a good place right now, just barely out of the top 10 but easily top 15. I feel like he just needs a few minor tweaks and he'd be perfect

 

[Strong Badam]

Meanwhile

Was actually toned down in 3.5! =)

 

[Soft Serve]

Was actually toned down in 3.5! =)

yeah, Thank god lol.

 

[The_NZA]

Was actually toned down in 3.5! =)

Only the end half of it though, if I'm correct. At the startup/first set of frames, its identical, right?

The thing about DDD being above you is that nothing stopped the fact that he was a big ****ing penguin. I never struggled to dash dance below him and wave dash out of the way and catch him on teh sides with a bair if he dropped with a dair.

 

[Ripple]

Yeah, that's why I would inhale. And then it was nerfed past is already horrible state

 

[tasteless gentleman]

The problem with all of these examples is that you're somehow assuming that you're both very, very high in the air for some reason, when this rarely occurs in the first place.

Wario has to be pretty damn high to use dair and get out of the animation before landing. If he's using it from that high, the odds of him hitting anything are slim to none, and all the opponent has to do is nothing and then they can punish Wario's straight-line commitment with whatever they want. Using dair at a space where you'd be out of the animation before hitting the ground is a silly thing to do, and is very, very easily reacted to.

One of my main practice partners was an Ivy main for months. I've been hit by it, but it's a terrible descent option because it's punishable, low damage, vulnerable, and easy to bait while being a huge commitment to the vertical movement.

Bowser bomb is easy to avoid in almost any scenario outside of hitstun. Don't kid yourself. If you get hit by an aerial Bowser Bomb while you are also in the air, it means you have massively overcommitted and been read.

If both characters are in the air and player B is trying to juggle or hit player A, there are very few scenarios in which B is so committed to their movement and action that any of these options aren't reactable. If they are, then they are also probably not directly underneath A where they could even be hit by those moves, and if they are underneath them as well, then proper spacing means that they either get their hit, or don't get hit.

Ah we are on different scenarios, you are referring to grounded opponents and I was not lol, my mistake

 

[Player -0]

So everyone knows Ganon's grab/dash grab are really bad.

I was messing around with random characters (was trying to get P:M wifi to work lol so this stems from me messing with Falco's boost pivot grab in Brawl). So Ganon's boost pivot grab goes reaaalllyy far. Normally on other characters this isn't TOO big of a deal but with Ganon's grab hitboxes being pushed into his body it might be worth it.

I think this is a viable thing that I'd like to see Ganons do.

@Odds_ You do crazy wavelands and stuff and were going to use Ganon.

 

[Warhawk]

DrinkingFood touched on a lot of my thoughts on this but I still wanted to go over some of this

Ganon is ostensibly supposed to be slower, stronger Falcon, right?

No, he's supposed to be Ganon. Especially now in Project M the characters are different enough that despite similar moves attached to the character they play very different.

So why in god's damn name does knee kill better than any of Ganon's kill moves?

This fact is simply absurd as it basically invalidates Ganon as a character.

Ok I know you go back on this statement later but you can't say something like this and not expect some backlash for it.

Beyond what DrinkingFood stated about move utility, on the flip side of this statement of Ganon's other aerials are better than Falcon's (ok maybe not the new nair), his grounded normals are better than Falcon's, and his specials are better than Falcon's. Having one specialized move be more powerful than any of Ganon's finishers when he has a slew of multipurpose moves that double as finishers is not the end of his character. Ganon also has float, and way better defensive options from shield to Falcon's garbo ones to differentiate himself from Falcon and not just be a worse version of him. I haven't a lot of experience with him but I'd say with his new tools that he edgeguards and recovers slightly better than Falcon as well. I Also thought in 3.5 that Ganon had a better time in some matchups than Falcon. I just don't think you can say that Ganon is completely invalidated across every matchup because Falcon matches up well with Ganon himself and destroys him because of the way their attributes line up against each other.

Knee is able to be comboed into from a ton of different moves at a wide range of percents

Give Falcon Ganon's fair and you'll see crazy combos with it too, probably some really nasty double fair combos. Knee is able to be used to finish so many combos because Falcon as a character has amazing combo attributes due to his speed on the ground and through the air. It'd be hard for him not to combo with most any move. The character is really good in this patch, probably near the top 5, but I don't think he's completely busted and even is he was I don't know that knee would be the fix with some of the other attributes the character has.

 

[Strong Badam]

Only the end half of it though, if I'm correct. At the startup/first set of frames, its identical, right?

It's identical for 4 frames, so starting frame 9 it's smaller and positioned higher to be less disjointed.

 

[Bazkip]

DrinkingFood touched on a lot of my thoughts on this but I still wanted to go over some of this



No, he's supposed to be Ganon. Especially now in Project M the characters are different enough that despite similar moves attached to the character they play very different.



Ok I know you go back on this statement later but you can't say something like this and not expect some backlash for it.

Beyond what DrinkingFood stated about move utility, on the flip side of this statement of Ganon's other aerials are better than Falcon's (ok maybe not the new nair), his grounded normals are better than Falcon's, and his specials are better than Falcon's. Having one specialized move be more powerful than any of Ganon's finishers when he has a slew of multipurpose moves that double as finishers is not the end of his character. Ganon also has float, and way better defensive options from shield to Falcon's garbo ones to differentiate himself from Falcon and not just be a worse version of him. I haven't a lot of experience with him but I'd say with his new tools that he edgeguards and recovers slightly better than Falcon as well. I Also thought in 3.5 that Ganon had a better time in some matchups than Falcon. I just don't think you can say that Ganon is completely invalidated across every matchup because Falcon matches up well with Ganon himself and destroys him because of the way their attributes line up against each other.



Give Falcon Ganon's fair and you'll see crazy combos with it too, probably some really nasty double fair combos. Knee is able to be used to finish so many combos because Falcon as a character has amazing combo attributes due to his speed on the ground and through the air. It'd be hard for him not to combo with most any move. The character is really good in this patch, probably near the top 5, but I don't think he's completely busted and even is he was I don't know that knee would be the fix with some of the other attributes the character has.

The basis of Ganon's design is slower, stronger Falcon. There's no denying this. He's a clone, this is a fact.

I myself said that my claim that it entirely invalidates Ganon was an overstatement idk why you're even focusing on that.

I'm not saying Ganon's tools are bad but I highly doubt he does better than Falcon in any relevant matchups. Ganon beating up x rarely used low-tier better than Falcon doesn't particularly matter.

Your last paragraph pretty much agrees with me. Falcon is good not because of knee but because his base attributes are so good and far more suited to being successful than Ganon's attributes, and on top of that he also has a better. It's not like the change would ruin him, it'd still be a good kill move.

Also Diddy got his fair changed to the Sakurai angle when it was weaker and hit slightly higher than Knee so...

Of course Diddy has very different tools than Falcon but they thought the fair killed just a tad too well and I think the same applies to the knee.

 

[Player -0]

I don't think less disjointed is the right word. It doesn't even cover his feet.

rip Falco's feet.

 

[FreeGamer]

I hope I live to see the day when Link becomes good again.

 

[Rachman]

The basis of Ganon's design is slower, stronger Falcon. There's no denying this. He's a clone, this is a fact.

I myself said that my claim that it entirely invalidates Ganon was an overstatement idk why you're even focusing on that.

I'm not saying Ganon's tools are bad but I highly doubt he does better than Falcon in any relevant matchups. Ganon beating up x rarely used low-tier better than Falcon doesn't particularly matter.

Your last paragraph pretty much agrees with me. Falcon is good not because of knee but because his base attributes are so good and far more suited to being successful than Ganon's attributes, and on top of that he also has a better. It's not like the change would ruin him, it'd still be a good kill move.

Also Diddy got his fair changed to the Sakurai angle when it was weaker and hit slightly higher than Knee so...

Of course Diddy has very different tools than Falcon but they thought the fair killed just a tad too well and I think the same applies to the knee.

Before I start I'd like to say I'm the guy who never shuts up to my local scene how dumb Falcon is in this game. Thank god they fixed his uthrow because it was honestly unbelievably dumb. That being said, Ganon is not at all functionally similar to Falcon. Even implying this implies a fundamental lack of understanding of how these characters function. These characters have moves that look similar. That's it dude. They don't play neutral the same, punish the same, have the same approach to the game, or even use their similar appearing moves the same. "He's a clone, this is a fact" is a meaningless statement. And if you have something like Fox Wolf Ike Roy Yoshi Falcon as top tiers (not really interested in debating this as none of us really know atm) then Ganon does better against Roy Yoshi (don't know much about Ike MU). Also, saying certain characters are irrelevant is ridiculous. The circlejerk over characters being "bad" in this game is taken way too far. Juan beat everyone with Puff when she was widely regarded as the worst character in the game. I agree that the PMDT needs to stop being so scared to give the lower half of the cast a little more something something but it's not like characters are irrelevant lol... Regardless, if Ganon is bad it has nothing to do with comparisons to Falcon and if Falcon is too good comparing him to Ganon makes no sense either.

 

[JesteRace]

Yeah, I don't get that either. Like, Link is not that bad, guys. Even if we take the very simplistic idea that he's a worse Tink, that would just mean he's a worse version of a really freakin good character.

 

[Bazkip]

Before I start I'd like to say I'm the guy who never shuts up to my local scene how dumb Falcon is in this game. Thank god they fixed his uthrow because it was honestly unbelievably dumb. That being said, Ganon is not at all functionally similar to Falcon. Even implying this implies a fundamental lack of understanding of how these characters function. These characters have moves that look similar. That's it dude. They don't play neutral the same, punish the same, have the same approach to the game, or even use their similar appearing moves the same. "He's a clone, this is a fact" is a meaningless statement. And if you have something like Fox Wolf Ike Roy Yoshi Falcon as top tiers (not really interested in debating this as none of us really know atm) then Ganon does better against Roy Yoshi (don't know much about Ike MU). Also, saying certain characters are irrelevant is ridiculous. The circlejerk over characters being "bad" in this game is taken way too far. Juan beat everyone with Puff when she was widely regarded as the worst character in the game. I agree that the PMDT needs to stop being so scared to give the lower half of the cast a little more something something but it's not like characters are irrelevant lol... Regardless, if Ganon is bad it has nothing to do with comparisons to Falcon and if Falcon is too good comparing him to Ganon makes no sense either.

If we can't compare characters strengths and weaknesses then what the heck are supposed to talk about in a damn tier list thread?
Ganon doing better against Roy? My sides.That matchup is awful.
I've already explained the "Irrelevant" statement really wasn't serious, come on. I don't actually think Ganon is bad.
Also Mango was the one to demonstrate Jigglypuff was viable. Doesn't really change your point but I think we're better at gauging character strengths than we were in the early Melee days.

This was just an example for the "Fast/small characters having better/equal kill moves than slow/large character" discussion, why are some of you guys taking it way out of context.

 

[FreeGamer]

Yeah, I don't get that either. Like, Link is not that bad, guys. Even if we take the very simplistic idea that he's a worse Tink, that would just mean he's a worse version of a really freakin good character.

Significantly worse, I might add.

 

[Boiko]

furta means that Hbox beat everyone in PM with puff when she was considered garbo.

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah, I don't get that either. Like, Link is not that bad, guys. Even if we take the very simplistic idea that he's a worse Tink, that would just mean he's a worse version of a really freakin good character.

I agree with you but you aren't going to get a bunch of people jumping on board with you. The fact of the matter is, there aren't that many talented Link players pushing the character. The funny thing is, all of the talented link players were all good at mind blowingly different things, which makes it seem like a good link player would imo be god like. Sol has the punish game, Nick Riddle had the tech, Hylian had bomb stuff, Wolf had the best neutral game, Hero of time has automatic seedings in fraudelent nationals, that NY Link player who kicked ass at SF has...i forget what. A Link player with the best in class punish game, neutral game, edge guarding, recovery would simply be terrifying.

 

[Manaconda]

I think we're better at gauging character strengths than we were in the early Melee days.

Even if that's true, that isn't saying much. So much of the PM community 'knows' that Puff is toilet paper tier, just like way back in the 'early Melee days' before Mango. Maybe she's being slept on in this game too. The top players for so many of these new characters aren't anywhere close to how good the top Melee players are with theirs, and that's not really PM's fault, it's just the consequence of having a newer game. Even if you think a character has been figured out, it's very unlikely that that's the case.

What exactly makes you think the unwashed masses are better at judging characters now than they were back then?

 

[Bazkip]

furta means that Hbox beat everyone in PM with puff when she was considered garbo.

Oh lmao I'm dumb. I recall HBox used to do kind bad in PM until 3.5 though, so that's some indication that Puff is usable after the design shift, if perhaps somewhat overshadowed by other characters. That's actually the term I should've used when I said Ganon was irrelevant, would've caused less confusion. He's viable but there's other characters who can put on the hurt, kill early and don't have the drawbacks he does. Idk.

Even if that's true, that isn't saying much. So much of the PM community 'knows' that Puff is toilet paper tier, just like way back in the 'early Melee days' before Mango. Maybe she's being slept on in this game too. The top players for so many of these new characters aren't anywhere close to how good the top Melee players are with theirs, and that's not really PM's fault, it's just the consequence of having a newer game. Even if you think a character has been figured out, it's very unlikely that that's the case.

What exactly makes you think the unwashed masses are better at judging characters now than they were back then?

Not talking about the unwashed masses, top players are what matters for this. Pretty much all top PM players have a background in another Smash game where they've gone through the process before. They know what to look for cause they've seen and been part of a developing meta already, and thus they can make better predictions than they could've way back. Also communication being so much more widespread and accessible plays a large role as well.

 

[JOE!]

D'oh.

Problem?

Major shoutout to @Draco_The for help with the physics!

 

[DrinkingFood]

that's broken af

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Major shoutout to @Draco_The for help with the physics!

 

[InfinityCollision]

Major shoutout to @Draco_The for help with the physics!

It's a start. Now do an edge cancelable strafing thing

edit:

major shoutouts to me for giving him the idea in the first place
i'd love to see zard's flamethrower tweaked for maximum shenanigans
just because
he's a fire breathing dragon
he should do fire breathing dragon things
all the time
AuraMaudeGoneToday at 12:59 AM
but...he's Flying Type..
InfinityCollisionToday at 1:00 AM
which is why he should do them from the air '-'
my logic is flawless

FLAWLESS

 

[MegaMissingno]

furta means that Hbox beat everyone in PM with puff when she was considered garbo.

If by "everyone" you mean several Melee veterans, a Mewtwo player who just didn't know what he was doing, Sethlon's Roy which is one of few characters Puff is good against, and Oracle's ROB which was a legit hard matchup that went down to last game last stock >100%... yeah, he totally beat everyone.

The thing with Puff is that there are plenty of characters she can fight, especially veterans. So a lucky bracket makes it seem not so bad. But there are just as many characters who utterly destroy her with some of the most polarized matchups in the game.

 

[FreeGamer]

Did someone say "polarized"? >:D

*prepares to give Puff the 3.6 Bowser treatment*

 

[Narelex]

Who are Puff's super polarized MU's?

Lucas, Mewtwo, Snake, Ike?

 

[JOE!]

Zard kindof invalidates her spacing and combo escapes

that's broken af

Currently, as you can see in the vid it has a ton of end lag to the point that I almost SD downwards when I FT at a ledge which makes me have to burn both jumps and Up B to make it back and that's only if I'm next to the edge. Gliding and Hovering are also mutually exclusive: If you Hover, you cannot Glide until touching ground and vice versa, hover is also only once per airtime. From my testing, Flamethrower is at minimum -16 for zard on hit. The best case scenario if he were to tap the fire and nail somebody from his mouth to ensure all the "actual hits" connect leaves them with nearly 20 frames to punish him for it. Toying around with this at least vs CPUs that are running around showed me that you can at least chip at people with the outer, non-hitstun hits for minimal damage but more importantly you can clank with weaker projectiles as a sort of pseudo-spacing option.

That said, the movement on it I feel is a bit much (currently you can Hover for 80 frames, I feel I should tone it to 60 or even 40) and perhaps tweak the end lag a bit more as it was suggested this could be amazing for edge guards. I don't see it personally as folks can SDI the actual hitboxes of the flames up and over you to help recover, + Bair/Nair/Dair would always be a better option combined with how Hover steals your glide for horizontal recovery if going deep for a flame edge guard. I think with less overall movement it'd be fine given all of FT's other shortcomings.

 

[Boiko]

If by "everyone" you mean several Melee veterans, a Mewtwo player who just didn't know what he was doing, Sethlon's Roy which is one of few characters Puff is good against, and Oracle's ROB which was a legit hard matchup that went down to last game last stock >100%... yeah, he totally beat everyone.

The thing with Puff is that there are plenty of characters she can fight, especially veterans. So a lucky bracket makes it seem not so bad. But there are just as many characters who utterly destroy her with some of the most polarized matchups in the game.

I didn't say anything about it. I was just correcting Bazkip on what furta said.

 

[Juushichi]

Who are Puff's super polarized MU's?

Lucas, Mewtwo, Snake, Ike?

@ SoulPech

From what I've observed, it's more or less M2/Ike of this group.

Watching Pech vs Rolex in Pools confirmed that I thought the MU wasn't bad and maybe that Puff won it in 3.5 (set went 1-2 in Rolex's favor, last stock last hit). I think that Lucas really doesn't interact well with Puff zoning and should just die offstage so idk. I would probably take SoulPech's word for most of these MUs because I am rather sure that he's the most or close to the most successful Puff in the US atm.

 

[SoulPech]

Hi,

I played Ally, Rolex, and Frozen with the M2, Ike, Snake matchup. I did not struggle as much against Snake nor Ike. I also have practice against Lucas, but no one that notable. Frozen was the one I had the most issues with because M2 has a magical way to combo my weight even though most characters do not. I'm at work so I can go into detail on this. I may write more when I get home.

 

[D e l t a]

I also have practice against Lucas, but no one that notable.

Welp. Time to become notable I guess lol.

I can attest to the MU being terrible for Puff. She only approaches primarily horizontally. If she tries falling with Nair / Dair, Lucas simply utilts / upsmashes / dashes away. If she tries coming in horizontally, Lucas uses PKF, tilts, and aerials to stop her. With his amazing wavedash, Lucas can punish aerials on shield better than most characters. Dair -> Upsmash kills around 55-60% (tested with good DI on multiple stages). Dthrow -> any aerial can kill sub 120% and over that is a free upthrow. All his aerials save for Dair can kill Puff in most positions. Puff is typically at a "safe" height just above Lucas' head to 1 character length higher, which is one of Lucas' best zones for combos and attacking. He can also easily punish whiffed rising, spaced out aerials with DACUS, making the MU even more difficult.

The only main advantages for Puff are that her aerials cut thru PKF and Lucas is at an easy weight to get combo'd into rest and die easier than most. Since 3.6 nerfed PKF again, it's rare that Lucas will be using PKF in that MU. Puff can destroy Lucas off-stage, but if the Lucas player is smart with tether mixups and avoids the path she is cutting off, she will rarely net kills in the MU. Not to mention his UpB doesn't get eaten up like Ness' so Puff can't just drop down and gimp him.

tl;dr Lucas gets into Puff's zone like Marth, but doesn't struggle with killing.

==

Snake v Puff is only bad if Puff stupidly runs into mines or Snake somehow gets a C4 sticky and converts off a random hit / explosion / somehow gets a grab in the same stock (thus Puff can die between 25-50% easy). Puff can Bair for days and Snake has little answers to this outside of Nades.

Ike isn't all that bad for Puff outside of slow, giant sword being an issue. Resembles something of the Marth v Puff MU but with more killing power.

M2 is about as bad for Puff as the reasons for Lucas v Puff. Plus the extra disjoints add an extra level of difficulty.

 

[Narelex]

Welp. Time to become notable I guess lol.

I can attest to the MU being terrible for Puff. She only approaches primarily horizontally. If she tries falling with Nair / Dair, Lucas simply utilts / upsmashes / dashes away. If she tries coming in horizontally, Lucas uses PKF, tilts, and aerials to stop her. With his amazing wavedash, Lucas can punish aerials on shield better than most characters. Dair -> Upsmash kills around 55-60% (tested with good DI on multiple stages). Dthrow -> any aerial can kill sub 120% and over that is a free upthrow. All his aerials save for Dair can kill Puff in most positions. Puff is typically at a "safe" height just above Lucas' head to 1 character length higher, which is one of Lucas' best zones for combos and attacking. He can also easily punish whiffed rising, spaced out aerials with DACUS, making the MU even more difficult.

The only main advantages for Puff are that her aerials cut thru PKF and Lucas is at an easy weight to get combo'd into rest and die easier than most. Since 3.6 nerfed PKF again, it's rare that Lucas will be using PKF in that MU. Puff can destroy Lucas off-stage, but if the Lucas player is smart with tether mixups and avoids the path she is cutting off, she will rarely net kills in the MU. Not to mention his UpB doesn't get eaten up like Ness' so Puff can't just drop down and gimp him.

tl;dr Lucas gets into Puff's zone like Marth, but doesn't struggle with killing.

==

Snake v Puff is only bad if Puff stupidly runs into mines or Snake somehow gets a C4 sticky and converts off a random hit / explosion / somehow gets a grab in the same stock (thus Puff can die between 25-50% easy). Puff can Bair for days and Snake has little answers to this outside of Nades.

Ike isn't all that bad for Puff outside of slow, giant sword being an issue. Resembles something of the Marth v Puff MU but with more killing power.

M2 is about as bad for Puff as the reasons for Lucas v Puff. Plus the extra disjoints add an extra level of difficulty.

Alright so We've confirmed Lucas and M2. Who else?

(MK has a +2 on her BTW but i was thinking more +3's)

 

[steelguttey]

olimar can get solo purple and not let jiggly do anything, probably one of her worst mu's

 

[eideeiit]

What about Tink?

 

[shairn]

Puff vs YL was tough in Melee, I can't imagine Puff vs Tink in PM lmao

 

[Soft Serve]

I think puff has the edge vs diddy. She does die from strong nair at like 115% so its not bad really, but its all camping/stray hits till strong nair/upsmash kill, or stray hit fair/rest punish.

For a character who everyone generally excepts is low tier, puff does have a decent MU spread.

 

[Beorn]

So everyone knows Ganon's grab/dash grab are really bad.

I was messing around with random characters (was trying to get P:M wifi to work lol so this stems from me messing with Falco's boost pivot grab in Brawl). So Ganon's boost pivot grab goes reaaalllyy far. Normally on other characters this isn't TOO big of a deal but with Ganon's grab hitboxes being pushed into his body it might be worth it.

I think this is a viable thing that I'd like to see Ganons do.

@Odds_ You do crazy wavelands and stuff and were going to use Ganon.

I don't know how this is considered bad by anyone.

I'm just going to leave this here again...

That Charizard flamethrower float is ridiculous. Could you imagine the crazy **** you could do with that off stage.