Tier List Speculation

[Shokio]

So is it agreed here that Roy needs KB adjustments?

 

[CyberZixx]

I think a change to his Dtilt in the vein of the up air change to make it still great but need more precision to use well could be warranted. Dtilt feels half broken sometimes.

Other than that he seems fine to me. Love to hear other arguments though.

 

[Rᴏb]

Dtilt annoys me too, but you can di away and be pretty safe iirc
I'd like to know more about dtilt though. It's different from melee, right? How big is the hitbox at the tip and am I right to assume that's the one you want to hit with?

I feel dirty complaining about a dtilt...

 

[941]

I think a change to his Dtilt in the vein of the up air change to make it still great but need more precision to use well could be warranted. Dtilt feels half broken sometimes.

Other than that he seems fine to me. Love to hear other arguments though.

I have to agree that the biggest problem with Roy is by far his D-tilt. It's a move that has a long, disjointed hitbox, comes out quickly, has few frames of lag, is used while crouching, and combos easily into N-Air/F-air/U-air. I think at least one of these things should be nerfed (preferably the moves combo potential) and Roy would be a fairly balanced character.

 

[Oracle]

maybe if you repeat yourself about ten more times and ignore everything everyone else mentions, you'll be right for once

I've already explained the benefit and depth of existing rng mechanics like olimar's, and everyone has just continued suggesting different ideas without discussion. I'm starting to remember why I don't post here...

Adding a set cycle adds a completely non-intuitive change to a move that the majority of players have no problem with. As a game design choice, it is extremely inorganic and sloppy. Why would you make peach pull 50 turnips to get a stitch? It just seems like a silly arbitrary changes with the same overall effect as the initial, forcing people to learn about an entirely new mechanic because 'hurr rng is bad'. Furthermore, it removes the aspect of the game where at any point in time, peach could pull an extremely dangerous item and force BOTH players to adapt to a sudden situation change. When peach pulls a bomb, beam sword, stitch, or mr. saturn, she threatens the opponent in completely different ways. The peach player has to immediately change what they are doing to best take advantage of their blessing, while the opponent has to be on their feet and be ready to change their counterplay immediately. Changing to a turnip counter completely removes this aspect of the game and makes neutral against peach just a little less skillful; I always know I'll be safe from stitches or bombs and the threat of peach pulling a bunch of turnips is almost non existent because I know whenever the stitch/bomb/sword is coming and I can just wait until then to prepare for it. A big advantage of the stitch/bomb is that it's totally unexpected; if I know when it's coming I'll never be on the back foot and it will always be easy to avoid.

This kind of masturbatory, arbitrary push for change is exactly what a ton of people hate about the PM community. There is absolutely no reason to change a mechanic in a mostly well balanced, mid tier character, and yall are pushing for it to be changed based on rng making you uncomfortable. Pro tip: a stitchface has never won somebody a match. It's always your fault for allowing your opponent the opportunity to grab a turnip, and you are 100% responsible for the result of that interaction, even if it is an item that does 40%

And this is all coming from a guy who has lost a set to a peach when they pulled 6 stichfaces, 2 bombs, and a beam sword

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think it's absurd how whenever someone posts a tier list, it immediately gets torn apart and ridiculed (except Lunchables for some of reason...). I feel that hurts discussion way to much. If only we could stop being a bunch of animals in here. Or we could completely forgot about fox or something...

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think it's absurd how whenever someone posts a tier list, it immediately gets torn apart and ridiculed (except Lunchables for some of reason...). I feel that hurts discussion way to much. If only we could stop being a bunch of animals in here. Or we could completely forgot about fox or something...

People all listen to only a 15 year old? Get bodied.

 

[trash?]

I've already explained the benefit and depth of existing rng mechanics like olimar's, and everyone has just continued suggesting different ideas without discussion. I'm starting to remember why I don't post here...

because everyone already explained why you're wrong a full page before you started posting about it

nobody has to repeat themselves to you

 

[Foo]

Wait. Roy got buffed by a pretty big amount I'm pretty sure.
- Side-B clanking makes projectiles less of a problem and before it could trade with moves with the other person winning.
- Dair spike is lol why.
- Other slightly random stuff.

He got nerfed through Up-Air end lag but he can still be dumb with it (2 more frames, it's big but it's not THAT big.).

On the side note once you get used to the game you can really feel minute 1 frame differences, it's crazy. 1/60 of a second.

Dair spike isn't really a buff since it isn't practical. Hitting it is... well... good luck. Side b clanking probably hurts more than helps, considering, you know, sword. Being transcendent is a good thing for grounded moves with long range. Also, upair has 2 additional frames of landing lag which is a big deal.

Roy got the same grab nerf as marth, but roy got some slight but significant nerfs, and some very negligible buffs.

 

[941]

because everyone already explained why you're wrong a full page before you started posting about it

nobody has to repeat themselves to you

You're right, Peaches turnips shouldn't be based on RNG. Also hitboxes should match their models exactly instead of being made up of circles that closely match the models. While we're at it, if a hit is going to KO and there is no chance of surviving, the character should just disappear and lose a stock, instead of taking up all that time to hit a blastzone.

You can argue the change is good, but it's a very trivial (as well as subjective) to argue that all RNG should be removed from the game when it doesn't make a character particularly strong/weak.

 

[Deleted member]

People all listen to only a 15 year old? Get bodied.

Strong Bad and I have a pretty good understanding on the current 3.5 meta, so whenever other people post lists they're eaten alive

 

[Shokio]

Dtilt annoys me too, but you can di away and be pretty safe iirc
I'd like to know more about dtilt though. It's different from melee, right? How big is the hitbox at the tip and am I right to assume that's the one you want to hit with?

I feel dirty complaining about a dtilt...

Yeah, you can totally DI it to where you can get out of a follow-up.........but people will argue that the dtilt comes out so quickly that it can be hard to be ready to DI it.

 

[trash?]

You're right, Peaches turnips shouldn't be based on RNG. Also hitboxes should match their models exactly instead of being made up of circles that closely match the models. While we're at it, if a hit is going to KO and there is no chance of surviving, the character should just disappear and lose a stock, instead of taking up all that time to hit a blastzone.

You can argue the change is good, but it's a very trivial (as well as subjective) to argue that all RNG should be removed from the game when it doesn't make a character particularly strong/weak.

this is the second person that just compared the basics of spacing to RNG

I don't get you sometimes, thread

 

[Binary Clone]

You're right, Peaches turnips shouldn't be based on RNG. Also hitboxes should match their models exactly instead of being made up of circles that closely match the models. While we're at it, if a hit is going to KO and there is no chance of surviving, the character should just disappear and lose a stock, instead of taking up all that time to hit a blastzone.

You can argue the change is good, but it's a very trivial (as well as subjective) to argue that all RNG should be removed from the game when it doesn't make a character particularly strong/weak.

I'd say those are bad examples because the hitbox thing is a practical limitation and the KO thing precludes the situation of a weak hitbox intercepting what would be a KO hit, like getting smacked into a boomerang and being saved.

But yeah, RNG is fairly silly. There's a reason that a lot of MOBAs and things ban certain crit builds and things, because really stupid things can happen. In Smash, we essentially have a few characters that are given crit-capable moves for no actual reason except that they're legacy moves from Melee.

 

[.alizarin]

i'll attempt to keep this brief lol

also, in future posts, please try and keep the strawmans to yourself lmao

I've already explained the benefit and depth of existing rng mechanics like olimar's, and everyone has just continued suggesting different ideas without discussion. I'm starting to remember why I don't post here...

Adding a set cycle adds a completely non-intuitive change to a move that the majority of players have no problem with. As a game design choice, it is extremely inorganic and sloppy. Why would you make peach pull 50 turnips to get a stitch? It just seems like a silly arbitrary changes with the same overall effect as the initial, forcing people to learn about an entirely new mechanic because 'hurr rng is bad'. Furthermore, it removes the aspect of the game where at any point in time, peach could pull an extremely dangerous item and force BOTH players to adapt to a sudden situation change. When peach pulls a bomb, beam sword, stitch, or mr. saturn, she threatens the opponent in completely different ways. The peach player has to immediately change what they are doing to best take advantage of their blessing, while the opponent has to be on their feet and be ready to change their counterplay immediately. Changing to a turnip counter completely removes this aspect of the game and makes neutral against peach just a little less skillful; I always know I'll be safe from stitches or bombs and the threat of peach pulling a bunch of turnips is almost non existent because I know whenever the stitch/bomb/sword is coming and I can just wait until then to prepare for it. A big advantage of the stitch/bomb is that it's totally unexpected; if I know when it's coming I'll never be on the back foot and it will always be easy to avoid.

This kind of masturbatory, arbitrary push for change is exactly what a ton of people hate about the PM community. There is absolutely no reason to change a mechanic in a mostly well balanced, mid tier character, and yall are pushing for it to be changed based on rng making you uncomfortable. Pro tip: a stitchface has never won somebody a match. It's always your fault for allowing your opponent the opportunity to grab a turnip, and you are 100% responsible for the result of that interaction, even if it is an item that does 40%

And this is all coming from a guy who has lost a set to a peach when they pulled 6 stichfaces, 2 bombs, and a beam sword

the number 50 is arbitrary, but the number on the cycle doesn't have to be. we can look at match length, the average amount of turnips pulled, etc. and decide on a number from there. do we want it to be a large number so peach has to vie for stage control constantly to take advantage of the guaranteed pull? or do we want it to be a smaller number (small as in compared to the large option, not like, 7 pulls) so people have to think about it many times over the course of the match? this creates an interesting dynamic between the two players, forcing both to think about when aggression and more defensive play is optimal.

if you're asking as to why you would want the cycle to begin with, please refer to my last 4 posts. and please read them slowly.

also, if you admit that it has the same overall effect, then you're admitting that you want the option that takes control away from the player lol...

"it removes the aspect of the game where at any point in time, peach could pull an extremely dangerous item and force BOTH players to adapt to a sudden situation change."

that's kind of the point...the arbitrary appearance of (practically) auto-death machines is dumb. i should not have to adapt to a sudden death machine that suddenly appeared on the screen at a random time and is conveniently in my hands or my opponent's. take pre-3.5 yoshi's island for example. no, i don't think that those platforms that had absolutely no indication as to when they appeared is good game design. do you propose that we should revert that change for the sake of "[forcing] BOTH players to adapt to a sudden situation change"? yeah, it makes the edgeguarder and person who is recovering "immediately change what they are doing to take best advantage" of the change. what's the difference? please argue why that fix was okay (assuming you agree with it, of course), but removing the rng from peach's turnips is not.

as for the last part...lol. i want it removed because it's a dumb mechanic that has no benefits over a non-rng-based mechanic. i don't care which character has this stupid mechanic. olimar could have it, jigglypuff could have it, i don't care. if it's counter-productive to the competitive game that this mod is trying to make, i want it gone. the fact that peach is "mid-tier" is completely irrelevant. and if you seriously think that the push is "masturbatory" and "arbitrary", then you do not have the reading comprehension required to continue this conversation.

 

[Deleted member]

What I'd do for Roy in the next build

• More end lag on DED 4th hit reverse (+5 probably)
• D tilt tip BKB matched to melee (90 -> 70)
• Up B Float removed

After playing a lot vs Sethlon, I can testify that there is definitely good counter play to Roys D tilt. Although D tilts 90bkb breaks ASDI Down at 0%, True CC beats D tilt until about 60%. I've also been able to DI D tilt away on reaction, usually because I can tell that D tilt is already going to happen. If you don't DI D tilt away, then you're either going to get fair'd or fsmashed, so its a 50/50 between doing combo DI or survival DI.

If you choose survival DI and get fair'd, prepare to eat a footstool and a gfycat on the pm subreddit.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Fox has only been mentioned once twice this page so far, good job thread

 

[Binary Clone]

What I'd do for Roy in the next build

• More end lag on DED 4th hit reverse (+5 probably)
• D tilt tip BKB matched to melee (90 -> 70)
• Up B Float removed

After playing a lot vs Sethlon, I can testify that there is definitely good counter play to Roys D tilt. Although D tilts 90bkb breaks ASDI Down at 0%, True CC beats D tilt until about 60%. I've also been able to DI D tilt away on reaction, usually because I can tell that D tilt is already going to happen. If you don't DI D tilt away, then you're either going to get fair'd or fsmashed, so its a 50/50 between doing combo DI or survival DI.

If you choose survival DI and get fair'd, prepare to eat a footstool and a gfycat on the pm subreddit.

I'm guessing by that you mean the hang time at the end of his upB?

I think I'd agree with all of those changes. I don't think he should lose too much hang time, but as it is now, it's pretty excessive, and ledgehogging against Roy is probably a lot harder than it should be at the moment.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm guessing by that you mean the hang time at the end of his upB?

I think I'd agree with all of those changes. I don't think he should lose too much hang time, but as it is now, it's pretty excessive, and ledgehogging against Roy is probably a lot harder than it should be at the moment.

Yeah I mean the hang time on his up b. Its ********, both roy and marth should have their Up B hang time reverted to Melee.

 

[trash?]

Fox has only been mentioned once twice this page so far, good job thread

why doesn't shine have a stitchface, DF

 

[Binary Clone]

Yeah I mean the hang time on his up b. Its ********, both roy and marth should have their Up B hang time reverted to Melee.

How much extra hangtime does Marth have compared to Melee?

I never noticed it, but now that I think of it, it does seem like more.

why doesn't shine have a stitchface, DF

There should be a 1% chance any given shine does 20% with quintuple knockback.

 

[941]

What I'd do for Roy in the next build

• More end lag on DED 4th hit reverse (+5 probably)
• D tilt tip BKB matched to melee (90 -> 70)
• Up B Float removed

After playing a lot vs Sethlon, I can testify that there is definitely good counter play to Roys D tilt. Although D tilts 90bkb breaks ASDI Down at 0%, True CC beats D tilt until about 60%. I've also been able to DI D tilt away on reaction, usually because I can tell that D tilt is already going to happen. If you don't DI D tilt away, then you're either going to get fair'd or fsmashed, so its a 50/50 between doing combo DI or survival DI.

If you choose survival DI and get fair'd, prepare to eat a footstool and a gfycat on the pm subreddit.

So there is counter play to being hit by D-tilt, but what's the counter play for avoiding/punishing it?

 

[Binary Clone]

So there is counter play to being hit by D-tilt, but what's the counter play for avoiding/punishing it?

CC option, shield angle down if he spaces wrong or you have good OoS, or jump.

 

[Deleted member]

So there is counter play to being hit by D-tilt, but what's the counter play for avoiding/punishing it?

I already mentioned punishing it, AKA True CC. The only other real way to punish it is to be someone like falcon who can jump across the entire stage and above roys d tilt to dair him or something

Avoiding it? Well, if you're stuck in shield often then you should expect to be hit by a nicely spaced d tilt, so I guess don't always be shielding

Roys D tilt threat zone is usually around his general dash dance range, so you need to respect that area. One of the things Sethlon never realized was that roys DD is one of the best in the game because of the applications he has out of it, mainly being D tilt.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So there is counter play to being hit by D-tilt, but what's the counter play for avoiding/punishing it?

You don't punish it without a read, but if you get it you can jump in with a CC breaking move (which is obv % dependent)

 

[Deleted member]

How much extra hangtime does Marth have compared to Melee?

I never noticed it, but now that I think of it, it does seem like more.

I want you to pick roy and/or marth. Up B, and hold up until you hit the ground.

Now do the same thing, but when you hit up b, instead hold down the entire time. See how fast Marth/Roy transition into their falling animation compared to when you hold up? The float is stupid >__>

 

[Ripple]

marth floats for an additional 10 frames compared to melee

 

[Strong Badam]

Rng on peach's turnips incentivizes pulling more of them and rewards players who can consistently earn enough stage control to pull them often (ie good players). It's the same with olimars pikmin and (to a small extent) gw's hammer. It rewards good players by giving them more opportunities to 'roll the dice', which pushes odds in their favor. This aspect can also add a lot of depth, especially in olimar's case, as it forces you to make extremely complicated decisions regarding your pikmin. If you throw them off stage, should you go for an edgeguard or use the time to filter pikmin ? What if you have a couple purples already? What if your pikmin are close to flowering?

These types of situations where there is no clear right answer require a ton of thought and risk assesment to properly utilize, which rewards good players because they earn situations in neutral where they can choose to make an attempt to organize pikmin or deal with what they have. Its the same type of skills you see mtg and poker pros using, and not just 'gambling' which a lot of you seem to think. Rng when properly implemented can add a ton of depth and skill to a game by forcing these complex situations. The idea of 'rng=bad' is honestly really ignorant and it frustrates me to see people who just accept it without another thought

Most people don't really think that RNG is inherently skilless or objectively bad, but it is quite obvious and inarguable that the skillset tested by introducing RNG is not tested by the game as a whole and is in fact heavily discouraged by our ruleset (stagelist and banning items). Games like poker and MTG test the skillsets you suggest as a constant, RNG is always relevant, it is a fact of life when you decide to play those games that luck of the draw can and will determine the outcome of games. For PM and other smash games, we actively attempt to remove it because the community as a whole finds the skillset less desirable, and that's why people take issue with the aforementioned RNG mechanics.
And just because better players can make better use of RNG mechanics does not mean it is a good mechanic. That's just a fact of life, better players will always be able to make better decisions and execute with precision over sloppy, worse players. There are still a good number of mechanics that are clearly bad for the game that can be described that way.

EDIT: also just lol @ "Peach pulling a stitchface has never won someone a match." That's just bull**** lmao

 

[Deleted member]

And just because better players can make better use of RNG mechanics does not mean it is a good mechanic. That's just a fact of life, better players will always be able to make better decisions and execute with precision over sloppy, worse players. There are still a good number of mechanics that are clearly bad for the game that can be described that way.

Holy **** this is so spot on. +999 points

 

[thehard]

Most people don't really think that RNG is inherently skilless or objectively bad

You'd be surprised

 

[941]

There are still a good number of mechanics that are clearly bad for the game that can be described that way.

And some of those mechanics are actually being reliably used by players to win games. Maybe we should focus on those before complaining about Peach's turnips.

 

[Binary Clone]

And some of those mechanics are actually being reliably used by players to win games. Maybe we should focus on those before complaining about Peach's turnips.

See: the other 500 pages about Fox

 

[trash?]

And some of those mechanics are actually being reliably used by players to win games. Maybe we should focus on those before complaining about Peach's turnips.

there's 691 pages in this thread. trust me when I say that the little bits are the only new ground one can really tread on

or do you want another fox discussion, because that's where this'll lead to

 

[Hylian]

The one boon to RNG is indeed hype factor. It is very interesting to see how players make RNG work in their favor using odds in various games. It all depends on what kind of skill set you would like to test between two people and the medium of which you are testing that skill also matters in relation to whatever RNG mechanic there is. When things always go as expected you can expect blandness in some fashion. Some people may enjoy this blandness as it promotes pure skill and reduces variance in results, and some people prefer the variance for one reason or another, but most notably staying interested in the game.

It's all about context. When trying to test pure 100% skill between two people you might want to have as little RNG as possible, but when designing a game or thinking about other things you might consider RNG elements and they wouldn't necessarily be bad. Poker is insanely popular because it is a game that revolves around "luck", yet people manage to use odds and weigh their worth over long-term results, the better players earning the most. These kinds of people would not be as interested in poker if it had little to no rng(generally), because the ability they have to optimize the randomness of the game and push it in their favor is a honed skill that they enjoy.

tl;dr preference is a thing, rng isn't necessarily bad, just depends on what kind of skillsets you want to test. Nothing wrong with wanting no rng either as that is perfectly reasonable of a competitive person.

 

[steelguttey]

And just because better players can make better use of RNG mechanics does not mean it is a good mechanic. That's just a fact of life, better players will always be able to make better decisions and execute with precision over sloppy, worse players. There are still a good number of mechanics that are clearly bad for the game that can be described that way.

i was gonna do a whole argument write up against oracle's "rng is good on olimar" post but you kinda just said what i wanted too so

 

[941]

or do you want another fox discussion, because that's where this'll lead to

We could also discuss the other 40 characters in the game that may potentially have strengths/weaknesses that are too easy to abuse. There is a middle ground between Fox taking stocks at 0% and an item pull that contributes to Peach taking a stock. I think the discussion about Roy and his D-tilt fits that pretty well.

 

[trash?]

...I don't think you understand what strong bad means

up until project m gets pokemon OHKO move levels of RNG, nobody's speaking of RNG-emphasis as a balance issue, they're speaking of it as a design issue

much like how chu dat being gimmicky with inhales/camping in 3.0 is, indeed, a gimmick, but it was still bad design and was changed as a result. you can have the most balanced game on the planet, but if it plays badly, it plays badly

 

[Shokio]

Fox has only been mentioned once twice this page so far, good job thread

Fox is broken.

 

[941]

...I don't think you understand what strong bad means

up until project m gets pokemon OHKO move levels of RNG, nobody's speaking of RNG-emphasis as a balance issue, they're speaking of it as a design issue

much like how chu dat being gimmicky with inhales/camping in 3.0 is, indeed, a gimmick, but it was still bad design and was changed as a result. you can have the most balanced game on the planet, but if it plays badly, it plays badly

I thought this was "Tier List Speculation", not "General Game Design Philosophy". Isn't the point of the thread to discuss characters and not how we feel about certain game mechanics?

 

[Binary Clone]

I thought this was "Tier List Speculation", not "General Game Design Philosophy". Isn't the point of the thread to discuss characters and not how we feel about certain game mechanics?

I mean, there's only so much you can say about "well, I think the characters are this good in this order" without is becoming a discussion as to why that is, then about the imbalances present, and then how to potentially fix those imbalances.

So, though yes, it is the Tier List Speculation thread, a lot of the discussion here is about game balance. When that is being discussed, changes do need to be viewed through a certain philosophy of game design.

I dunno, I don't have a problem with it as long as it's productive discussion of the game.