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Tier List Speculation

SunJester

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G+W's RNG is interesting, because it rewards players doing quick math to assess the risk/reward of going for another side-B. Also the opponent can see also use this to be aware of what might be coming. The player uses their skill, and game knowledge, to assess the risk.

Luigi's RNG is something we all know, he has a one in six shot of getting a misfire, and is also able to store them. If Luigi has done 4 normal side-b's, you and your opponent should both know there's a 1/2 chance of a misfire being next. Also if Luigi attempts a misfire without "farming" for one its essentially rolling the dice. The RNG is not in luigi's favor there as the luigi player can get punished for attempting a "yolo" side-b.

Peach, however, seems to be completely random. Stitches seem to come completely at random and its hard to do any prediction on when they will come like you can with luigi or G+W. Although I do concede that if you leave a Peach to farm turnips, you're doing it wrong. I'm not completely against the idea of stitch faces, but I wouldn't mind them having a damage nerf (34% is insane, if i recall that correctly).

Though my absolute least favourite thing about Peach's RNG is she can't get punished for NOT getting a stitch. If G+W hits a 1 hammer, he's getting punished, if Luigi doesn't get a misfire, he can get punished, if Peach doesn't pull a stitch-face, she doesn't get punished, she still has a really great projectile in her arsenal. I think RNG should come with some risk/reward. Though I'm not absolute in this conviction, we can open it up for discussion.

Peach's other pulls (Beam Sword, Bob-omb, Mr Saturn) should not be in the game. The should be turned off when you turn off items. I mean christ, Beam Sword F-smash covers like half of Dreamland.
 

trash?

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luigi's RNG is best-case scenario, when you get down to it

it's designed to be guaranteed EVENTUALLY and nine times out of ten you are storing that thing, so getting it earlier is a slight convenience more than it is a deal-breaker
 

.alizarin

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Rng on peach's turnips incentivizes pulling more of them and rewards players who can consistently earn enough stage control to pull them often (ie good players). It's the same with olimars pikmin and (to a small extent) gw's hammer. It rewards good players by giving them more opportunities to 'roll the dice', which pushes odds in their favor. This aspect can also add a lot of depth, especially in olimar's case, as it forces you to make extremely complicated decisions regarding your pikmin. If you throw them off stage, should you go for an edgeguard or use the time to filter pikmin ? What if you have a couple purples already? What if your pikmin are close to flowering?

These types of situations where there is no clear right answer require a ton of thought and risk assesment to properly utilize, which rewards good players because they earn situations in neutral where they can choose to make an attempt to organize pikmin or deal with what they have. Its the same type of skills you see mtg and poker pros using, and not just 'gambling' which a lot of you seem to think. Rng when properly implemented can add a ton of depth and skill to a game by forcing these complex situations. The idea of 'rng=bad' is honestly really ignorant and it frustrates me to see people who just accept it without another thought
Why would rng be more beneficial than a set cycle? They both promote the same thing that you're proposing, except one takes control away from the player and the other doesn't. I see no benefit in the former.
 

SunJester

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so , introduce a sadface turnip that does 0 knock-back and damages peach (judgement 1)? =p
Possibly, I know its ****ty to point out a problem and not offer a solution, but I like the idea that you and the opponent are aware of the possibility of RNG, not the sudden "Oh look, I pulled a stitch!"

So I guess i'll try and offer a solution. Personally given how integral turnips are to Peach's game, I think removing the RNG element would be okay. That way you and the opponent always know exactly what the turnips are going to do.

I'd like to hear some Peach main's opinion on this, whether they feel homogenized turnips would be a detriment or a buff to their gameplay.
 

941

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Except..IC's are broken and glitchy. I died several times because I did something as simple as turning around, as well as missed many moves because of it. They cannot dash dance properly, wavedash attack properly, among other things. It's like playing a character that relies on burst mobility where every time you turn around your character trips.
It also makes MUs like Marth and Roy much worse than they should be because ICs can't space properly. It's hard enough to play against Roy without sliding into his strongest moves.
 

steelguttey

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if we start talking about how a set pikmin order would be a good idea im actually going to scream

its just not smart
 

trash?

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I skimmed over it, most of it was just whining about rng, as per usual
so you didn't actually pay attention to anything people said, before making the exact same arguments

and you expect people to take you seriously?
 

CORY

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Though my absolute least favourite thing about Peach's RNG is she can't get punished for NOT getting a stitch. If G+W hits a 1 hammer, he's getting punished, if Luigi doesn't get a misfire, he can get punished, if Peach doesn't pull a stitch-face, she doesn't get punished, she still has a really great projectile in her arsenal. I think RNG should come with some risk/reward. Though I'm not absolute in this conviction, we can open it up for discussion.
i'm pretty sure the initial thought process (from nintendo) was something like "well, they can catch her turnips and use them against her if she's not smart with it."

similar to the links' bombs, but those have a timer associated with them. turnips last indefinitely while held and, if used in a "proper" manner, allow you to recover them and reuse them until the item expiration timer finishes.
 

Soft Serve

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Catching peaches turnips and using them against her is a lot easier and more effective than in melee though. I really hate stichfaces and the items, but dot eyes are fine, and if the others get removed they should get slightly buffed or come up more frequently.

I don't dislike rng, but I really hate peaches. I don't feel like characters should randomly get rewarded extra for doing something the character should be doing anyway.

On the flip side item play and counterplay has been expanded drastically, and imo the amount of respect that turnips need to be given has decreased a lot because you can catch it with the same option you could use to get away from it, in addition to the ability to catch and throw It back with one motion. There's no real excuse to not have good item play atm.

Peach is really good but I don't think turnips have much of a part of that anymore. Peach has a lot of jank (float cancels man, wtf) but it's all healthy imo until you pull a stitch/bomb.
 

SunJester

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i'm pretty sure the initial thought process (from nintendo) was something like "well, they can catch her turnips and use them against her if she's not smart with it."

similar to the links' bombs, but those have a timer associated with them. turnips last indefinitely while held and, if used in a "proper" manner, allow you to recover them and reuse them until the item expiration timer finishes.
Absolutely. The main reason I'm not horribly against stitch faces is because they can be used against Peach. What worries me however, is how incredibly strong they are.

Its like if the PMDT tomorrow released 3.6 and Tink's or Link's bombs had a 1/200 chance of doing 34% damage and incredible knockback, people would really, really, -really- hate that. I think it's a bit of the case of the "because melee"s.

I think we could take a page out of the book of the old PMDT, and look for a 'lateral movement'. Get rid of stitch faces, but make dot eyes more common to balance the nerf. Also, if it were up to me, I'd colour the turnips so they're clearly visible what turnip your'e dealing with. It's not a nerf to top players who can usually read peach's body language, but its helpful to new players (think like the white flashes for L-cancels).
 

B.W.

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Olimar has the most RNG.

RNG Pikmin
RNG whether or not Pikmin decide to recover
RNG whether or not Pikmin respond to whistle or just fall and die despite you mashing down-b like a mad man to save your Purples and Blues
RNG this one bug where Pikmin don't work so when you use Pikmin attacks the game thinks Olimar has no Pikmin despite having 4 of them.

Went to a tournament yesterday and experienced every single one of them too
 

.alizarin

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Same goes for Peach Turnips.
enlighten me as to why a set cycle is somehow worse than rng

i personally want the variation in peach's turnips removed completely, but i suppose the slightly less drastic change would be a set cycle.

also, in response to people who are saying that it's more "fun" or "hype" to have the rng stay, i find it more "fun" and "hype" when someone gets a proper combo or stock off without the occasional random interference of the game disc. your opinion on what's interesting to watch and play is no more and no less valid than mine, so keeping it based on that is completely arbitrary and meaningless. give me a real argument.
 
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shairn

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Hm, I'm pretty sure catching turnips in mid-air is easier in melee, since you only need to press Z as opposed to airdodging

Or is there another input you can use in PM?
 
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Soft Serve

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You can still catch with z in the air. The only reason people don't do it much in melee is because most characters have booty item tosses, but everyone roughly got them improved upon this patch
 

Rᴏb

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G&W's judgment makes me so sad because I know that it will never get changed to be not stupid due to its premise. At least it's fun for me?

Don't get me started on chef though, there is no reason why my projectile has to choose a random flight path every time I wanna throw it out. Holding up or down minimizes the number of angles you can randomly get, but this just makes me even more salty knowing that even with my improved chances of getting a good angle I still ended up missing my opponent by a ****ing centimeter 'just because'. ****.

at least it's not as bad as olimar

Also regarding the whole Peach turnip thing, instead of recoloring turnips make it more obvious as to which one you pulled, Peach should pull all of the different veggies you could get in SMB2. That would be more aesthetically pleasing imo.
 
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Vashimus

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If G&W was not a Melee character, his moveset would've been completely changed into a generally more effective one a long time ago.
 
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DrinkingFood

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There's other ways to adjust peach's turnips without just making them a set order or changing the likelihood of pulls. You could only give her weak turnips with a regular pull, and require her to hold down the button and tug out stronger turnips for longer. Weak standard turnips take the current amount of time, winky faces take 2x as long, dot eyes take 3+x as long, stitches and other items take 4+x as long. Gives her a tool that passively encourages approaches even if she starts to pull a regular turnip. Since she rarely kills off the top, she can't just get a free stitch after her kills unless she can pull that off which is hard for her.
 

.alizarin

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or, you could just leave the current mechanic as is since it rewards good players and isn't broken :/
or you could explain why the current mechanic has any benefit over a set cycle
 
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trash?

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or, you could just leave the current mechanic as is since it rewards good players and isn't broken :/
maybe if you repeat yourself about ten more times and ignore everything everyone else mentions, you'll be right for once
 
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Shokio

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Here's my tier list I'm doing off the top of my head. Grade+ means higher end of the tier (ex: Mid-High), Grade- means the lower end of the tier (ex: Mid-Low). (Duh).

Top Tier
A+ Fox
A Shiek, Wolf
A- Flaco

High Tier
B+ Captain Falcon, Roy
B Ike, Yoshi, Diddy
B- G&W, ROB, Toon Link, Marth, Lucario

Mid Tier
C+ Mewtwo, Wario, Luigi, DDD, Zelda, Ness
C ZSS, Peach, Mario, Samus, Snake, Bowser, Ivy, Ganon, Lucas, Charizard, DK, Squirtle
C- Pikachu, Pit, Metaknight, Link, Sonic(?), Kirby

Low Tier
D+ Jiggs
D Ice Climbers
D- Olimar

Not saying the sub-tier placements are fairly accurate but I do think the overall tier that the chars are in pretty much are. Some chars I really didn't know where to place and others I can see moving up or down a sub-tier. I made 3 sub-tiers in D just to match the format of the others......the specifics with those characters don't actually matter.
 
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Boiko

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Here's my tier list I'm doing off the top of my head. Grade+ means higher end of the tier (ex: Mid-High), Grade- means the lower end of the tier (ex: Mid-Low). (Duh).

Top Tier
A+ Fox
A Shiek, Wolf
A- Flaco

High Tier
B+ Captain Falcon, Roy
B Ike, Yoshi, Diddy
B- G&W, ROB, Toon Link, Marth, Lucario

Mid Tier
C+ Mewtwo, Wario, Luigi, DDD, Zelda
C ZSS, Peach, Mario, Samus, Ness, Snake, Bowser, Ivy, Ganon, Lucas, Charizard, DK, Squirtle
C- Pikachu, Pit, Metaknight, Link, Sonic(?), Kirby

D Tier
D+ Jiggs
D Ice Climbers
D- Olimar

Not saying the sub-tier placements are fairly accurate but I do think the overall tier that the chars are in pretty much are. Some chars I really didn't know where to place and others I can see moving up or down a sub-tier. I made 3 sub-tiers in D just to match the format of the others......the specifics with those characters don't actually matter.
Hard to get behind Samus being that low for reasons I've stated a few pages back.
 

Shokio

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Hm, well, tbf, I've never played a top-tier Lucario before so that can definitely be true, I just wouldn't know.

Same goes for Samus. Like I said in my post I'm not too sure about exact placements (when it comes to the mid-tiers) so if ya'll could explain why they should be higher that'd be cool. Edumacate me.
 

Boiko

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:lucario:
Current Placing: T2
Suggested Placing: T8
Lucario is an amazing character, no doubt in my mind. He has all the tools he needs to succeed at top levels of play. However, he has a relatively strong reliance on having aura. If aura was only used for pressure/combos that would be one thing, but it's also expelled for his recovery. Without aura, Lucario's recovery becomes notably worse, as all characters at the top tier level have a method of gimping him. His recovery certainly isn't bad though, even without aura. It has a degree of mix up and interesting hitboxes, to say the least. Lucario also has a weakness to crouch cancel, and characters with fast combo interrupts, like a frame 3 nair (Peach). If a combo is interrupted after he uses aura to continue it, he kind of wastes that opportunity and has to build it up again. Someone calculated earlier in the thread saying Lucario, on average, will get about 11 aura charges in one game. While this is good, it may not be enough against a majority of top tiers to keep his pressure game consistent.

:falco:
Current Placing: T5
Suggested Placing: T8
Falco has an extremely solid neutral game, a ridiculous punish game, a great projectile, a fast and strong spike, and other great kill moves. So why shouldn't he be top tier? First of all, smash DI. Falco has no follow ups from a shine or dair that is smash DI'd correctly. And while it may be hard to be consistent with, it's just an easy escape option from his pressure. His horizontal mobility is subpar, and if timed properly, a buffered roll can get you out of his shield pressure, and even far enough away that he has to give enough chase for you to just get away. Lasers are overall less effective in PM than in Melee due to the diverse array of characters that can deal with them now. A large portion of the cast has significant aerial mobility so that they can weave around lasers and close the gap on Falco. His recovery provides a lot of mix up options, but if he does get caught, it's curtains at very low percentage. Lastly, Falco gets comboed to death by a big portion of the cast, and a lot of them can go off stage to shut down his recovery completely. His shine is notably worse than Fox's, and his average run speed means his combo strings can be cut short with proper DI.

:ike:
Current Placing: T9
Suggested Placing: T5/7
Ike is an amazing character. His nair can be comboed into itself, he has burst movement with mix ups embedded into it. He can go deep off stage with HUGE range and knockback to end stocks extremely early. He has a strong recovery between his wall jump, and his aether having a relatively smally window to punish. He has grab mix ups that convert into kills, damage, or stage positioning. If Ike is charging a quickdraw against Fox, what can you actually do? You can CC the QD attack, but then he just grab you, you can try to jump away, but then he can cancel into upsmash or a large disjointed aerial, you can shield, but then he can just grab you, you can try to hit him out of it, but he has disjoint. You don't have a projectile to stop him either. He has so many options out of burst movement and they all convert extremely well. Plus, he can edge guard with counter if that happens to be favorable. It's just another tool he has. He does have weaknesses, of course. He gets comboed decently hard, and if you catch his recovery quickdraw, he's pretty much dead. But these weaknesses aren't enough to outweigh his strengths and prevent him from being at least top 8 in the game, if not top 5.

:samus2:
Current Placing: T12
Suggested Placing: T7
Samus has great stage control, good projectiles, long range zair, fast moves, great OoS options, good spacing tools, and she's probably the most difficult character the combo in the game. Strong Bad said his list considered the characters that would be faced most frequently in tournament. Some common characters are the spacies, Roy, Ike, Falcon, Diddy... All of who she goes even with or wins against besides Ike and MAYBE Falcon. Her losing match ups are a lot less common that her winning ones. ROB, Tink, and Zelda, for example. But really, there are three players that come to mind when looking at those characters at a top level, so it's not a huge issue. Samus does not need to approach in almost any match up. Her down smash and down tilt are both frame six IIRC and they both convert from CC and lead into potent follow ups. When she's holding a charge shot, you're forced to play very differently. If she connects with a forward tilt or up tilt, two of her best spacing tools, you'll eat the charge shot, so you're almost forced to keep your distance from her. But then she'll just harass with missiles. While most characters can deal with missiles, having to deal with an onslaught of homing missiles and smash missiles while she's holding a charge shot is extremely difficult. If you try to nair through, you're going to get hit by charge shot and then you'll be forced to recover against a missile wall, her up tilt or drop zone nair. Her recovery is still good, despite what other Samus players may say. The fact that she needs to be blast zone killed, dunked low, or hit out of tether, otherwise she's going to make it back, doesn't make a bad recovery. If there is a DBZ moment, her tether allows her to quickly reel back to the stage, and considering aerial interrupts, she should be somewhat comfortable on the ledge. Plus, her recovery has a lot of mix ups. Bomb jumping, just rolling off a bomb, rising grapple, up+b. While none of them are fantastic, having a lot of mix ups and being able to come from different angles, or bait your opponent to commit to something are never bad. Plus, she's one of the only characters who is comfortable in shield, having a 1 frame (with 5 frames of invincibility) OoS option that can be mixed up with up smash if the situation calls for it. Ice mode gave her the tools she needs to deal with floaties at reasonable percentages. Her weaknesses lie in that she has a hard time getting down from juggles, and she dies off the top early. Plus, she has a hard time approaching against projectiles or characters with good reflectors. Her overall combo game is solid, but not amazing. She's more about spacing, threatening with presence, building up damage, and then converting into an edge guard situation.

:ness2:
Current Placing: T32
Suggested Placing: T20
Ness is an overly slept on character with a wide variety of tools, pressure options, kill options, potent edge guarding, and a very strong punish game. He has a solid match up against spacies, Roy, Lucario, Falcon, and Diddy, but loses solidly to Sheik, Samus, Marth, and Ike. The biggest issue with Ness is his terrible recovery. I've said it before, but his recovery is one of the worst in the game. It's incredibly difficult to sweet spot, telegraphed, and he has no hitbox in front of him, so he loses to everything that hit's his face. I've wrote time and time again about Ness' conversions off of a single hit, his ridiculous edge guard mix ups, his solid neutral game, so I'm not going to repeat myself any further (just look a few posts back for the novel). He's a bad combo weight, and should die if he's below the stage. But he has way too many strengths to be on the same tier as anyone else in B-.

This was in relation to Strong Bad's list, so ignore the placements.
 

Player -0

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There's other ways to adjust peach's turnips without just making them a set order or changing the likelihood of pulls. You could only give her weak turnips with a regular pull, and require her to hold down the button and tug out stronger turnips for longer. Weak standard turnips take the current amount of time, winky faces take 2x as long, dot eyes take 3+x as long, stitches and other items take 4+x as long. Gives her a tool that passively encourages approaches even if she starts to pull a regular turnip. Since she rarely kills off the top, she can't just get a free stitch after her kills unless she can pull that off which is hard for her.
Only has trouble killing off top vs. fast fallers? Up Air and Up-Smash are pretty good, with Up-Smash being the go to for a read.

Consistent stitches would be OP. Knock them offstage? Stitch, they can't get back on stage now.
 

steelguttey

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i feel like when people put olimar as the worst character in the game they need to say that its only cus his recovery sucks so bad

if he got a new recovery and nothing else he would be mid tier honestly
 

PlateProp

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i feel like when people put olimar as the worst character in the game they need to say that its only cus his recovery sucks so bad

if he got a new recovery and nothing else he would be mid tier honestly
i dont get why steel hasn't been inducted into the pmdt for the sole purpose of fixing the train wreck they made olimar yet
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
This sounds really familiar... oh yeah this is what people were saying about Roy when Melee first came out. It's still not true btw, Marth is the better character.
Lets just all take a moment to realize how wrong we can be sometimes
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Roy has always been better than marth, his changed from 3.02 to 3.5 were very minor

3.02 Roy U air mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm me gusta
 

Foo

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I must say, while the items are stupid for peach, the turnips aren't really much of a problem (except for sorta stitch-face). Peach turnips are actually REALLY easy to counterplay. You know the magical land where everyone should powershield everyone's projectiles and then projectiles suck? Well, this is like that only it's not even hard to catch peach's turnips. Wavedashing back out of dash dance to catch them is really easy.

Also, remember that one time someone said you could airdodge into peaches items then aerial glide toss? Remember how I said that that wasn't something you could reasonably expect a good player to do and pretty much everyone agreed with me? Well, I was super wrong. Turns out, it's actually really easy.

Anyway, I think stitch face should just be toned down a little bit. I don't think she needs THAT much extra credit for being lucky. Tone down stitchface and remove items and peach down-b is fine.


Hey now! That was a previous version! Roy didn't get busted until 3.5!

I will not stand for this smear campaign!
Huh... let's see here.

Marth 3.5 patch notes
Grabs
-Dash grab range reduced.
-Turn grab's innermost hit box has been removed, removing grabs from behind Marth's back.

Others
-Jab 2 active frames 4-9.


Roy 3.5 Patch notes

Aerials
-Down Aerial
--Sweet spot now spikes with the fire animation.
--Knock back and KBG changed to 40 BKB and 60 KBG.
-Up Air landing lag increased from 15 (7 L-cancelled) to 18 (9 L-cancelled).

Specials
-Forward Special (Double Edge Dance)
--Can now clank with opposing moves, including projectiles. This excludes Side Special Down Four.
--Down Four can no longer be absorbed.
--Received a few very small tweaks to properly match Melee's frame data on the first three hits.
--Changed input window for next attack from frames 20-29 to frames 22-29.
-Down Special (Counter)
--Now properly covers his feet after the counter frames become active.

Grab
-Dash Grab range has been shortened slightly.

Others
-Hit boxes have been altered minutely to better match animations.
-Slow walk speed significantly increased.

Yeah, roy got nerfed more than marth. Anywho, just calling you. I still think marth is better, but....



Here's my tier list I'm doing off the top of my head. Grade+ means higher end of the tier (ex: Mid-High), Grade- means the lower end of the tier (ex: Mid-Low). (Duh).

Top Tier
A+ Fox
A Shiek, Wolf
A- Flaco

High Tier
B+ Captain Falcon, Roy
B Ike, Yoshi, Diddy
B- G&W, ROB, Toon Link, Marth, Lucario

Mid Tier
C+ Mewtwo, Wario, Luigi, DDD, Zelda, Ness
C ZSS, Peach, Mario, Samus, Snake, Bowser, Ivy, Ganon, Lucas, Charizard, DK, Squirtle
C- Pikachu, Pit, Metaknight, Link, Sonic(?), Kirby

Low Tier
D+ Jiggs
D Ice Climbers
D- Olimar

Not saying the sub-tier placements are fairly accurate but I do think the overall tier that the chars are in pretty much are. Some chars I really didn't know where to place and others I can see moving up or down a sub-tier. I made 3 sub-tiers in D just to match the format of the others......the specifics with those characters don't actually matter.
I agree with the first 5 or 6 characters, but after that.. hot damn lol. I have too many problems with this list to even write them all down.
 
D

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Shokios tier list is about as viable as Olimar

edit: Roy > Marth
 
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Shokio

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i feel like when people put olimar as the worst character in the game they need to say that its only cus his recovery sucks so bad

if he got a new recovery and nothing else he would be mid tier honestly
That's where most of it comes from. That and how the Pikmin crumble apart at the slightest touch and sometimes don't respond to the whistle.

But fundamentally, Olimar is pretty good. The major thing that weighs him down is how unreliable he is, as pretty much everyone else has stated.

Also: Don't be mean guys pls.
 

Player -0

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Marth 3.5 patch notes
Grabs
-Dash grab range reduced.
-Turn grab's innermost hit box has been removed, removing grabs from behind Marth's back.

Others
-Jab 2 active frames 4-9.


Roy 3.5 Patch notes

Aerials
-Down Aerial
--Sweet spot now spikes with the fire animation.
--Knock back and KBG changed to 40 BKB and 60 KBG.
-Up Air landing lag increased from 15 (7 L-cancelled) to 18 (9 L-cancelled).

Specials
-Forward Special (Double Edge Dance)
--Can now clank with opposing moves, including projectiles. This excludes Side Special Down Four.
--Down Four can no longer be absorbed.
--Received a few very small tweaks to properly match Melee's frame data on the first three hits.
--Changed input window for next attack from frames 20-29 to frames 22-29.
-Down Special (Counter)
--Now properly covers his feet after the counter frames become active.

Grab
-Dash Grab range has been shortened slightly.

Others
-Hit boxes have been altered minutely to better match animations.
-Slow walk speed significantly increased.

Yeah, roy got nerfed more than marth. Anywho, just calling you. I still think marth is better, but....
Wait. Roy got buffed by a pretty big amount I'm pretty sure.
- Side-B clanking makes projectiles less of a problem and before it could trade with moves with the other person winning.
- Dair spike is lol why.
- Other slightly random stuff.

He got nerfed through Up-Air end lag but he can still be dumb with it (2 more frames, it's big but it's not THAT big.).

On the side note once you get used to the game you can really feel minute 1 frame differences, it's crazy. 1/60 of a second.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
I feel the changes to Roy were significant despite being suble. before I could Up air juggle with ease and now I have to smarter about it (good overall design change). His dair has different fuctions now. Due to the smaller hitbox of the sweet spot. Diar is probably better now.

Only thing I don't really agree with is why was his DED xxV changed to send at an awful up angle that you can't follow up on. Before it had niche by the ledge uses due to it's fantastic lower angle.

When that patch note came out and I was fearing for Dtilt but it seems PMDT never caught on to that move. But now they are aware.
 
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