GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
You're saying that banking on a stichface is somehow part of Peach's play.
I don't know how this doesn't come off as idiotic.
I don't know how this doesn't come off as idiotic.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Blitzus
Smash Apprentice
Really? You're sure there aren't Peaches who bank on Stitches?
.alizarin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 97
lol...
when you say removing rng would "change Peach dramatically", you'll have to back that up with peaches that DEPEND on the rng to make them good. tell me right now that top peaches like armada DEPEND on their rng to win. armada's gotten some pretty ridiculous pulls before, but does he depend on them? i don't think so. that would mean he loses the majority of the matches in which he does not pull a stitch or bomb, which is empirically incorrect.
yes, there will be less dice rolling. that's the point. you are literally ignoring the entire argument and reading what you want to read. yes, peach players will stop getting the occasional jank wins because they pulled a stitch or something while waiting for their opponent to recover. that's the whole point of removing it.
edit: just saw the marth tipper comparison you made.
lol.............
when you say removing rng would "change Peach dramatically", you'll have to back that up with peaches that DEPEND on the rng to make them good. tell me right now that top peaches like armada DEPEND on their rng to win. armada's gotten some pretty ridiculous pulls before, but does he depend on them? i don't think so. that would mean he loses the majority of the matches in which he does not pull a stitch or bomb, which is empirically incorrect.
yes, there will be less dice rolling. that's the point. you are literally ignoring the entire argument and reading what you want to read. yes, peach players will stop getting the occasional jank wins because they pulled a stitch or something while waiting for their opponent to recover. that's the whole point of removing it.
edit: just saw the marth tipper comparison you made.
lol.............
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Blitzus
Smash Apprentice
Of course I'm not saying that all Peach players are slaves to Lady Luck.
And, from a purely compteitive PoV, the fewer the random elements, the more competitive the game becomes.
man.... I guess I don't have any real firepower then.
I concede. There is not logical reason to keep the turnip mechanic as it is.
And, from a purely compteitive PoV, the fewer the random elements, the more competitive the game becomes.
man.... I guess I don't have any real firepower then.
I concede. There is not logical reason to keep the turnip mechanic as it is.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Not any good ones lol
mimgrim
Smash Hero
*blinks*
If anything, removing RNG from Peach's Turnips would improve her consistency for both the player and the opponent and make her play-style more refined/defined because of that consistency. At least I would think so.
Assuming they actually would go and take the RNG away from them, which is highly doubtful anyway. Though if they did they could do something silly like for every 50th Turnip pulled she draws a stitch face or something like that.
If anything, removing RNG from Peach's Turnips would improve her consistency for both the player and the opponent and make her play-style more refined/defined because of that consistency. At least I would think so.
Assuming they actually would go and take the RNG away from them, which is highly doubtful anyway. Though if they did they could do something silly like for every 50th Turnip pulled she draws a stitch face or something like that.
pkblaze
Smash Apprentice
Every 10th is a dot-eye (or whiichever one is stronger than normal) and every 50th is a stitch.
Got 2nd in a tournament today going mostly IC's. I had really close games with Metroid in finals when I went IC's, tried Link in grands and got 4 stocked game 1(looool ok maybe link is actually bad) and then Ic's game 2 which was last stock highish%, then lucario game 3 where I got wrecked. Went all IC's in WF and it was 3-1 in his favor with the matches being close.
This was with broken glitch IC's. When they are fixed people better not sleep on them, I'm going to take names.
Edit: Here's some juicy stuff: http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/637016228?t=1h18m38s
This was with broken glitch IC's. When they are fixed people better not sleep on them, I'm going to take names.
Edit: Here's some juicy stuff: http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/637016228?t=1h18m38s
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941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
Don't think we have to worry about that anytime soon. Kappa
Seriously though, thanks for giving me some games to watch, maybe someday I'll learn how to keep Nana alive after taking more than 1 hit.
supascoot
Smash Apprentice
Yeah, having something like this would lead to insanly campy and annoying peaches who would attempt to camp and pull as many turnips as possible.
IMO, the thing that erks me the most about turnip pulls is the beam sword. For stumpy characters it just makes it a nightmare to get in and basically makes the match won by a coin flip, because even if you only lose one stock to it, it still swings the game to be heavily in peaches favour. Whereas with stiches or bob-oms there is still some element of counter play with catching them out of the air.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
That's why I said they could do something silly.
Comprehend13
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2014
- Messages
- 34
http://smashboards.com/threads/peach-data-and-notes.309178/
If the statistics on the above thread hold true for PM, then:
P(at least one stitchface or non-vegetable item in 50 pulls) = 71.7%
Average number of stitchface or non-vegetable items in 50 pulls =1.25
P(at least one stitchface in 50 pulls) = 57.8%
Average number of stichface or non-vegetable items in 50 pulls = 0.855
Depending on how much you think non-vegetable items are worth, Peach already has a superior turnip pulling odds than 1 stitchface/50 turnip pulls. Making stitchfaces non-random might affect play for psychological reasons, but the end result seems more like a nerf than a buff.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
its fun, in a game we still play for fun
or have we stopped doing that
exit- i got second to sethlon in a tournament. i still hate roy
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
you also forfeited
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
stop with the memes please no
lmao I ****ing died this response was perfect. 10/10
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
what the heck that peach turnip talk.
I mean.. I dislike RNG in a competitive game... but it IS hype generation.
I think it becomes a scale of, do we want this hype as heck RNG vs is this RNG just causing too much problems and making games just a lottery ticket as to whether or not they win.
I'm on the fence about Judgement.. sure it's hype as heck seeing a 9 kill someone, but is it that good for G&W players to be thinking "gee I sure hope this is a 9 at the end of this combo and isn't a ****ty 1".
Although Judgement does have the dots, which is a real nice addition as it balances out the RNG and Hype. Still hype as heck, but more predictable.
I mean.. I dislike RNG in a competitive game... but it IS hype generation.
I think it becomes a scale of, do we want this hype as heck RNG vs is this RNG just causing too much problems and making games just a lottery ticket as to whether or not they win.
I'm on the fence about Judgement.. sure it's hype as heck seeing a 9 kill someone, but is it that good for G&W players to be thinking "gee I sure hope this is a 9 at the end of this combo and isn't a ****ty 1".
Although Judgement does have the dots, which is a real nice addition as it balances out the RNG and Hype. Still hype as heck, but more predictable.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Don't refer to your character as broken and glitchy when Olimar exists. ICs are very playable as they are.
Who brought up turnips?
I don't know if people know this or not, but Peach isn't fast enough to camp characters so turnip camping isn't really a thing unless you're on Rock transformation of PS1.
I lost a doubles match because I punished with a judgement when I had a good chance of 9, but got a 1 and lost... Judgement is not a good move and in every scenario there is always a better move that will always be constant. It has niche uses at the very end of combos where you can line up an attack, but wouldn't get follow ups anyways. Misfire is ages better because you can actually apply it with certainty. Also I witnessed the 1 frame hitbox of misfire of his couple frames of invincibility crush ROB through his nair... haha
Who brought up turnips?
I don't know if people know this or not, but Peach isn't fast enough to camp characters so turnip camping isn't really a thing unless you're on Rock transformation of PS1.
I lost a doubles match because I punished with a judgement when I had a good chance of 9, but got a 1 and lost... Judgement is not a good move and in every scenario there is always a better move that will always be constant. It has niche uses at the very end of combos where you can line up an attack, but wouldn't get follow ups anyways. Misfire is ages better because you can actually apply it with certainty. Also I witnessed the 1 frame hitbox of misfire of his couple frames of invincibility crush ROB through his nair... haha
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
yea shut up you privileged non-olimar scum
Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
I think turnips was just a part of the discussion on RNG.
I think GnW's RNG is a lot more acceptable than other forms for a couple of reasons.First is that his move is a risk and never a guarantee. There is actually possible disadvantage from using Judgement, where you do no knockback and get damaged yourself, while leaving yourself open for a punish if you get a 1. The other big reason is that it's somewhat predictable - you know you will get even or odd, and you know you won't get the last two numbers, which gives the move something of a strategic element.
On the other hand, Peach's turnips are always good. Peach's gameplan against Marth, for example, practically revolves around her having a turnip in her hands. The problem is that now, completely at random, and to no real possible detriment to Peach, she has opportunities to completely destroy or turn around stocks with stitchfaces, bombs, or beam swords. Besides that, once you pull one, you have time to be aware of it and use it carefully and effectively, unlike a 9 hit. Personally, I think that's kind of silly.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Except..IC's are broken and glitchy. I died several times because I did something as simple as turning around, as well as missed many moves because of it. They cannot dash dance properly, wavedash attack properly, among other things. It's like playing a character that relies on burst mobility where every time you turn around your character trips.
Comprehend13
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2014
- Messages
- 34
Why should using a character's move as intended include the possibility of backfiring on the player?
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Oracle
Smash Master
Rng on peach's turnips incentivizes pulling more of them and rewards players who can consistently earn enough stage control to pull them often (ie good players). It's the same with olimars pikmin and (to a small extent) gw's hammer. It rewards good players by giving them more opportunities to 'roll the dice', which pushes odds in their favor. This aspect can also add a lot of depth, especially in olimar's case, as it forces you to make extremely complicated decisions regarding your pikmin. If you throw them off stage, should you go for an edgeguard or use the time to filter pikmin ? What if you have a couple purples already? What if your pikmin are close to flowering?
These types of situations where there is no clear right answer require a ton of thought and risk assesment to properly utilize, which rewards good players because they earn situations in neutral where they can choose to make an attempt to organize pikmin or deal with what they have. Its the same type of skills you see mtg and poker pros using, and not just 'gambling' which a lot of you seem to think. Rng when properly implemented can add a ton of depth and skill to a game by forcing these complex situations. The idea of 'rng=bad' is honestly really ignorant and it frustrates me to see people who just accept it without another thought
These types of situations where there is no clear right answer require a ton of thought and risk assesment to properly utilize, which rewards good players because they earn situations in neutral where they can choose to make an attempt to organize pikmin or deal with what they have. Its the same type of skills you see mtg and poker pros using, and not just 'gambling' which a lot of you seem to think. Rng when properly implemented can add a ton of depth and skill to a game by forcing these complex situations. The idea of 'rng=bad' is honestly really ignorant and it frustrates me to see people who just accept it without another thought
who dont peaches item pulls work like dedede?
Dedede can throw items instead of waddles, but only if items are set to on.
Should be the same for peach. no?
Meaning bobombs and Beamsword, not stitchface.
Dedede can throw items instead of waddles, but only if items are set to on.
Should be the same for peach. no?
Meaning bobombs and Beamsword, not stitchface.
I like how you just skipped every single post being made in the past two pages
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
Yeah I agree in these cases. But they don't prove that "RNG is good".
They prove that RNG used WELL is good.
Making G&W hammer just do a random number every time is really really bad RNG.
zman804
Smash Ace
I think it's interesting no one is talking about DDD Waddle Tosses/Gordos. I think RNG based attacks are fine, but the fact that DDD sometimes won't be able to Waddle toss for horizontal movement is upsetting.
I mentioned it before a bit, actually
tbh, a set pattern of choices could be interesting, too, so long as the gordos and waddle-doos are spaced out between waddle-dees. if you knew your next throw can justifiably sit around due to having lasers, it would work a lot differently than if you didn't know and you just threw it haphazardly at the opponent
tbh, a set pattern of choices could be interesting, too, so long as the gordos and waddle-doos are spaced out between waddle-dees. if you knew your next throw can justifiably sit around due to having lasers, it would work a lot differently than if you didn't know and you just threw it haphazardly at the opponent
Oracle
Smash Master
I skimmed over it, most of it was just whining about rng, as per usual
I agree than gw's hammer is a poorly implemented example of rng. 9 is over centralizing, and all the hammers have no risk to using them at the end of a combo, so in general you can just always go for hammers off of throws/up b and as long as you know it will be odd then your expected return is still higher than what you would have without the hammer. Your best option is usually to just roll the dice, and sometimes you just get a free kill at 40. I prefer how the other hammers have more specific uses so you actually do have to think about the results you can get (ie noticing if you have a high chance of a 6/4, then having a setup for using side b facing the ledge gives you a big advantage, or trying to filter out 1/2/3 to make sure you won't get punished on hit), its just that the 9 is so much better that the potential depth of the other options is lost because it's always just better to fish for 9's
D