Tier List Speculation

[Hylian]

It's actually kind of funny how many changes we make BEFORE complaints happen, and then a tournament happens where like someone abuses mewtwos teleport and we're like "oh boy now everyone is going to think we made this change in reaction to that tournament...oh well" XD

 

[Ripple]

its also kinda funny how many things you don't change that get complained about. no winning

#FIXINHALE

 

[PlateProp]

#FIXWITHDRAWFIRST

PLEASE

@cmart must be like dead or have cancer with how many times i've cursed him now

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Don't latched pikmin deal shieldstun with their DOT? I always thought that was kind of interesting (or would be interesting, if I'm incorrect), having an element of pseudo-lockdown like that. Only thing is they rarely latch on for long enough to be practical in that regard, and a lot of characters will have the option to just run away instead, without really taking all that much damage, unless it's a white. Then it all goes full circle and they're basically glorified Fox lasers that ironically get wasted by actual Fox lasers.

 

[B.W.]

If an opponent decides to shield when a Pikmin is latched on them it does do shield damage, yes. Which is pretty awesome because you can deal a lot of damage to people's shields really fast when it happens.

Side-B is both amazing and not, but the worst part about it is that the more damage an opponent has, the sooner the Pikmin falls off naturally. The only time this is a good thing is when the Pikmin is white because it causes the explosion to happen sooner. But Pikmin Throw is good in the sense that the opponent has to either throw out a move to get Pikmin off, which Olimar can punish or shield to avoid damage. Not doing these things actually lets damage rack up pretty fast, especially if they have two Pikmin stuck to them and they get caught in a combo.

 

[Beets]

@ steelguttey I don't understand why you dislike RNG.

RNG does not let Olimar win nor cause Olimar to lose. RNG plays no part in your win / lose ratio. RNG does not take away the amount of "skill" involved with playing Olimar (or any other character who relies on RNG for that matter (Luigi, Peach, Game & Watch, Dedede, etc), in fact I would argue the very opposite, that the Olimar player actually requires more skill to play since his hand changes every minute of every match.

Basically what I am trying to say is that even if Olimar pulled only Purple Pikmin he would not be a better character because the variables involved in plucking Pikmin l result in a outcome that ultimately does not determine whether or not you, the player, will win the game, nor whether or not Olimar, as a character, is better or worse at the matchup than the opponent player or character.

If you want a character with range / reliant on projectiles devoid of RNG there are many other options.

Olimar is not a bad character due to his toolset being variable.

Olimar is a bad character because his tether does not sweepspot ledges 100% of the time when it should. Because he lacks grab armor and his opponents can escape before he can act out of it. Because his RNG moves have a year of starting lag as opposed to the lack of from Brawl Olimar. Because he is light and slow, in movement speed and attack. Olimar, also, is a bad character, because despite him relying on randomly generated numbers, he is still heavily predictable.


That being said I am curious as to why / what you dislike about Olimar's RNG game. Personally I'm more sour about my friend spamming Waddle Dee Throw and killing me with Gordos every other stock.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The issue with RNG is not that it makes either player more likely to win or lose, nor that it takes more or less skill to use an RNG based character- the issue is that RNG takes control out of the hands of the players in a game where we often celebrate our high degree of control. If you don't understand that, or you can't in your mind separate the concept of having control from the idea of winning or losing or having or lacking skill, kindly discontinue discussion until you do.

 

[trash?]

The issue with RNG is not that it makes either player more likely to win or lose, nor that it takes more or less skill to use an RNG based character- the issue is that RNG takes control out of the hands of the players in a game where we often celebrate our high degree of control. If you don't understand that, or you can't in your mind separate the concept of having control from the idea of winning or losing or having or lacking skill, kindly discontinue discussion until you do.

you just said what I've wanted to put into words since olimar was first put out, within a single paragraph

FWIW though, olimar doesn't even have the worst RNG problems, it's DDD's sideb, because at least when you pluck with olimar you can get a decent setup quickly, with DDD you can just... not have your recovery work at all, because the game decided you wanted a gordo and not a normal waddle dee

 

[Ripple]

there's almost no point in waddle dashing for recovery anymore though. so it doesn't really matter.

#FIXGORDOANGLE

 

[steelguttey]

@ steelguttey I don't understand why you dislike RNG.

RNG does not let Olimar win nor cause Olimar to lose. RNG plays no part in your win / lose ratio. RNG does not take away the amount of "skill" involved with playing Olimar (or any other character who relies on RNG for that matter (Luigi, Peach, Game & Watch, Dedede, etc), in fact I would argue the very opposite, that the Olimar player actually requires more skill to play since his hand changes every minute of every match.

Basically what I am trying to say is that even if Olimar pulled only Purple Pikmin he would not be a better character because the variables involved in plucking Pikmin l result in a outcome that ultimately does not determine whether or not you, the player, will win the game, nor whether or not Olimar, as a character, is better or worse at the matchup than the opponent player or character.

If you want a character with range / reliant on projectiles devoid of RNG there are many other options.

Olimar is not a bad character due to his toolset being variable.

Olimar is a bad character because his tether does not sweepspot ledges 100% of the time when it should. Because he lacks grab armor and his opponents can escape before he can act out of it. Because his RNG moves have a year of starting lag as opposed to the lack of from Brawl Olimar. Because he is light and slow, in movement speed and attack. Olimar, also, is a bad character, because despite him relying on randomly generated numbers, he is still heavily predictable.


That being said I am curious as to why / what you dislike about Olimar's RNG game. Personally I'm more sour about my friend spamming Waddle Dee Throw and killing me with Gordos every other stock.

yes, for all that is holy it helps me win or lose. purple means i take stocks 30% faster than normal, thats ****ing huge. no, it doesnt take away the amount of skill, but it makes the game dictate the way im suppose to play the goddamned game because it rolled an imaginary dice. i never understood why people thought that being a janky and random character took more "skill". olimar is easy. i suck. alot. olimar carries me (that is really hard to say)

yes, pikmin dictate the matchup. there is a best pikmin line up for every matchup. blues are good against spacies, because they kill horizontally with fair or bair and uthrow can actually get them into usmash combos. purples are good against lightweights because usmash kills really early. purples are also good at stuffing approaches because the side b is a real projectile. white is good against zoning characters cause it forces them to do dumb **** when you stick it on to them. yellow is good against people with disjoints cus more range and less lag+better fsmash. i can go on.

i have no idea how you think the gimmick that makes the character win matchups doesnt help me win or lose.

olimar is bad because most of those reasons. grab armor, weight and **** recovery is what you got right there. youre nearly completely wrong on all other points lmao

fair starts on frame 7 and is a kill move and a combo move. usmash starts on frame 8 and covers your whole head. yellow fsmash starts on frame 11. these are faster than most moves in the game. he has mid movement speed, again, not bad. he isnt predictable at all. honestly if you have platforms fsmash and side b alone are so versatile it can change matchups entirely.

rng doesnt have a place in a competitive videogame, period. especially if the character is based off of it. i can understand things like gdubs hammers and peach turnips, but olimar is based around pikmin and the way you play the next attack is based off of the pikmin you have. i have no idea why the way you optimally play a ****ing character is based off what a console made in 2006 tells you

EDIT:

The issue with RNG is not that it makes either player more likely to win or lose, nor that it takes more or less skill to use an RNG based character- the issue is that RNG takes control out of the hands of the players in a game where we often celebrate our high degree of control. If you don't understand that, or you can't in your mind separate the concept of having control from the idea of winning or losing or having or lacking skill, kindly discontinue discussion until you do.

^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^

 

[Warzenschwein]

OLIMAR FREE ZONE
---------------------------------

pmdt pls make squirtle's aqua gun cancelable the same way as aura sphere kthxbai I want more jank with more ease

 

[Life]

In defense of RNG characters in fighting games:

1. Being able to win in an unpredictable scenario is a kind of skill. (mumble mumble competitive poker mumble mumble)

2. You opted into that RNG by playing Olimar or Luigi or etc. It seems silly to me to complain about losing your agency over the results of the game when you gave it up of your own free will. If it's that important to you, why aren't you playing Fox, or Marth, or the other, what, 85% of the cast that have no random elements?

This is not to say Olimar is a well-designed character or that randomness (like every other element of a game) can't be done badly. I'm speaking in the abstract here.

 

[PlateProp]

In defense of RNG characters in fighting games:

1. Being able to win in an unpredictable scenario is a kind of skill. (mumble mumble competitive poker mumble mumble)

2. You opted into that RNG by playing Olimar or Luigi or etc. It seems silly to me to complain about losing your agency over the results of the game when you gave it up of your own free will. If it's that important to you, why aren't you playing Fox, or Marth, or the other, what, 85% of the cast that have no random elements?

This is not to say Olimar is a well-designed character or that randomness (like every other element of a game) can't be done badly. I'm speaking in the abstract here.

They're trying to say that the character would be better overall if rng was removed, not that hard of a concept. Also Olimar's different seeing as rng kind of affects almost every single move he has, rather than one move like Luigi and GnW

 

[egumption]

Part of the problem is that with Olimar his RNG is un-"game"able. With GnW's Judgment, you can pseudo-predict what the next roll is. With Luigi's Missile, you get the roll at the start but after that you can store misfires and it goes on a set cycle. With Olimar's RNG you just...roll the dice.

RNG is always a suboptimal mechanic. It's like in MMOs. You can base mechanics/procs on RNG, but that doesn't mean it's better. In the long run (i.e. time approaching infinity), sure, you theoretically get the same outcome assuming your pseudo-RNG algorithm is solid enough. But because RNG is RNG, you might double-proc in, say 6s and get bone-crushing burst DPS, but then you go 30s without a proc and your sustained DPS drops like a rock. The optimal solution is to always have ICDs on procs, but give them 100% chance to proc. You get the same overall effect as t approaches infinity, but it's way more manageable, predictable, and less inconsistent.

True, MMOs are not like Smash, but the principle largely applies. You want consistency in a game whenever possible unless it's a specific, minor/superfluous mechanic. For a character like Olimar, his central mechanic relies on RNG. Does it function overall? In the long run, sure, but it's a suboptimal mechanic because it critically revolves on getting the right draw. And for 7min (at max) Smash matches, that's definitely not a long enough duration for the distribution of Pikmin draws to really smooth out. Olimars can easily lose / go down a couple stocks early in a match due to bad Pikmin draws (not even because upB is non-functional).

 

[B.W.]

The fact that Olimar has RNG doesn't really bother me. RNG really doesn't hurt him all that much.

What really bothers me is that he just kind of has it just because. I understand getting rid of it is an obstacle when it comes to coding, so I'm not really blaming PMDT for it, but the other solution to his RNG is building the character around it.

Pikmin are way too similar as it is. People talk about different Pikmin being better for different matchups, but that's really true anymore now that Pikmin don't have resistances. Reds, Yellows and Whites for the most part are just throw aways while Blues and Purples are really what you're going for. There's never a reason to keep Reds or Yellows. You can keep Whites if you wanna gamble on them getting to be flowers, in which case they're pretty insane.

I understand that that's hard to do without making Olimar obnoxious though. Doing stuff like changing knockback angles makes the character frustrating to play against. There's not a lot you can do to make Pikmin different without giving them their resistances back. Hell I'd suggest even giving Yellow an extra resistance to light and blue an extra resistance to ice if you wanna go that route.

 

[Comprehend13]

@ steelguttey I don't understand why you dislike RNG.

RNG does not let Olimar win nor cause Olimar to lose. RNG plays no part in your win / lose ratio. RNG does not take away the amount of "skill" involved with playing Olimar (or any other character who relies on RNG for that matter (Luigi, Peach, Game & Watch, Dedede, etc), in fact I would argue the very opposite, that the Olimar player actually requires more skill to play since his hand changes every minute of every match.

Basically what I am trying to say is that even if Olimar pulled only Purple Pikmin he would not be a better character because the variables involved in plucking Pikmin l result in a outcome that ultimately does not determine whether or not you, the player, will win the game, nor whether or not Olimar, as a character, is better or worse at the matchup than the opponent player or character.

It's hard to tell what you are actually proposing.
1)
If you mean that RNG generator is "fair and doesn't affect the player" or something similarly misleading, here is my rebuttal:
The utility of olimar's pikmin is dependent upon their color. Random color determination of pikmin results in different optimal strategies than player controllable color determination. If certain subsets of pikmin orderings are superior to others in a given matchup, then RNG pikmin genesis is strictly inferior. Yes, ON AVERAGE the proportion of pikmin produced under RNG may asymptotically approach the proportion produced under player control (depending on how the pluck mechanics would be altered), but order is important and randomly getting an extremely beneficial pikmin lineup may produce no better results than a merely good pikmin lineup -- another factor that makes RNG inferior to player controlled pikmin color determination.

All of the characters you mentioned except DeDeDe do not rely upon an unmediated random number generator. Luigi, Peach, and Game and Watch have storing mechanisms similar to Olimar (though G&W can only increase the chance of a favorable response), while DeDeDe Gordo throw (as far as I know) cannot be planned for and consequently its affect on the game is likely more unbiased.

2)
If your intention is to assert that pikmin color doesn't affect the outcome of the game, I will let someone with more authority on the character refute that (imo...wat?)

 

[steelguttey]

we smogon now #grammarchecks

 

[Oracle]

Youre all dumb if you think rng is always bad.

 

[skellitorman]

Youre all dumb if you think rng is always bad.

When is rng good?

 

[DrinkingFood]

When you want something random

 

[941]

When is rng good?

Personally, I like RNG that rewards players for fast reactions. The best example I can think of right now, is in Melee, when ICs get a grab with Nana and she throws in a random direction, which makes both players react to a situation that neither can predict.

 

[skellitorman]

Personally, I like RNG that rewards players for fast reactions. The best example I can think of right now, is in Melee, when ICs get a grab with Nana and she throws in a random direction, which makes both players react to a situation that neither can predict.

Why is this better than the alternative? (The alternative being that you control which way Nana throws).

Using the same logic, would it be better for normal characters to throw in a random direction when they get a grab? Is it better to not have control in such a situation?

Why is it better to have RNG dictate the situation to react in, instead of the player directly causing such a situation? A player can be rewarded for having fast reactions just the same without RNG, except that it would make more sense without the RNG, seeing as the result would not be caused by something random.

When you want something random

When do you want something random over the alternative in this competitive fighting game?

 

[Blitzus]

When is rng good?

Turnips.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

wait, this is kind of off-topic. I thought of this when I was trying to make a comparison to RNG with random teching. which for some reason made me think of reaction vs. read tech-chasing.

but are reads almost non-existant at perfect levels of play
due to being able to react to someones read? some reads might work though. I should make a list.

 

[941]

Why is this better than the alternative? (The alternative being that you control which way Nana throws).

Using the same logic, would it be better for normal characters to throw in a random direction when they get a grab? Is it better to not have control in such a situation?

Why is it better to have RNG dictate the situation to react in, instead of the player directly causing such a situation? A player can be rewarded for having fast reactions just the same without RNG, except that it would make more sense without the RNG, seeing as the result would not be caused by something random.

Controlling the throw direction leads to the Brawl Infinite (which seems to be widely disliked), but my original point is that one player has the option of creating a situation that favors the player with the better reaction to the RNG. That being said, I understand this is subjective, and while I like the concept, there is a possibility of having too much RNG.

 

[xquqx]

Turnips.

Personally, I really don't like that Peach can basically get a free KO at random. Maybe it's just salt from playing against a Peach main all the time, but it seems like the special turnips get pulled pretty frequently. What's the actual probability of pulling a stitch face or a bomb-omb or one of the other special, more powerful pulls?

 

[.alizarin]

Turnips.

lol ok

picture this: a game is going totally even, both players are forced to think dynamically about conversions and position to vie for whatever advantage they can get and then oh boy, someone rolled the die way too hard and gets a stitch face. now, the advantage doesn't go to the person who played smarter, but rather to the person who just happened to get the (practically) instant death projectile.

why is this okay? you can tell me that the stitch requires skill to use, which is true to some degree, but let me ask you: would it take more or less skill compared to a static projectile? would you have to think harder about the way you rack up damage, or not? why should the advantage go to the guy who just happened to roll the die harder than the other (or the guy who even has the die to begin with?)? it's not like the turnip is a useless projectile by itself and needs the stitch to be worth anything and therefore puts you at some risk when rolling; it's a good projectile by itself, and now you give it the possibility to randomly kill the opponent in a few hits?

i see absolutely no benefit to taking the control away from the player and putting it in the hands of rng. this is a competitive game based on whether or not you have the skill to best the other player, and rng affects that in a negative way.

also, oracle, put up an actual argument please, i actually want to hear why this is so obvious to you and not to me.

 

[trash?]

fun fax: at evo 2014, armada only got a stock lead that lead to him winning the set vs ppmd because of an RNG bomb

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

just have misfires all the time kthx

 

[Soft Serve]

I vote for more RNG

I want a 1 in 200 chance for a banana that kills off the top at 40. You could buff pickmin hits all you want, I'll just circle came until I can tech chase confirm into a kill with my giant banana from mario kart

 

[Blitzus]

lol ok

picture this: a game is going totally even, both players are forced to think dynamically about conversions and position to vie for whatever advantage they can get and then oh boy, someone rolled the die way too hard and gets a stitch face. now, the advantage doesn't go to the person who played smarter, but rather to the person who just happened to get the (practically) instant death projectile.

why is this okay? you can tell me that the stitch requires skill to use, which is true to some degree, but let me ask you: would it take more or less skill compared to a static projectile? would you have to think harder about the way you rack up damage, or not? why should the advantage go to the guy who just happened to roll the die harder than the other (or the guy who even has the die to begin with?)? it's not like the turnip is a useless projectile by itself and needs the stitch to be worth anything and therefore puts you at some risk when rolling; it's a good projectile by itself, and now you give it the possibility to randomly kill the opponent in a few hits?

i see absolutely no benefit to taking the control away from the player and putting it in the hands of rng. this is a competitive game based on whether or not you have the skill to best the other player, and rng affects that in a negative way.

also, oracle, put up an actual argument please, i actually want to hear why this is so obvious to you and not to me.

On the other side of the same token, if turnip pulling was numeric (IE: dot eye 1, normal 2, Stitch 3, Bobomb 4)
and the order was 1 2 3 4, Peach would get a free kill out of 1/2 turnip pulls.

 

[.alizarin]

On the other side of the same token, if turnip pulling was numeric (IE: dot eye 1, normal 2, Stitch 3, Bobomb 4)
and the order was 1 2 3 4, Peach would get a free kill out of 1/2 turnip pulls.

...or you could just remove the variation in turnip types entirely and only have the standard ones.........

 

[Blitzus]

...or you could just remove the variation in turnip types entirely and only have the standard ones.........

I legitimately don't know how to respond to that.
"Hey, let's remove any variation in this character. variation that has existed since 2001."
You actually want to cut out a major playstyle element of a character.

"Hey, Marth's sword does more damage at the tip! Let's dump that!"

 

[trash?]

did you just compare one of the most important mechanics in spacing to RNG

are you a real human being

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I legitimately don't know how to respond to that.
"Hey, let's remove any variation in this character. variation that has existed since 2001."
You actually want to cut out a major playstyle element of a character.

"Hey, Marth's sword does more damage at the tip! Let's dump that!"

I mean I'm kinda ambivalent on rng buttt

"Hey look fox has a move that has frame one invincibility! Let's change that!"

which is exactly what did happen and what needed to happen

 

[Blitzus]

I mean I'm kinda ambivalent on rng buttt

"Hey look fox has a move that has frame one invincibility! Let's change that!"

which is exactly what did happen and what needed to happen

And does that one frame of invincibility change everything about Fox's moveset? because cutting off some turnips is essentially morphing how peaches will play.... by a lot.
Foxes can still play the same way they always have.
Dumping turnip RNG would actually change Peach dramatically.

 

[Narpas_sword]

And does that one frame of invincibility change everything about Fox's moveset? because cutting off some turnips is essentially morphing how peaches will play.... by a lot.
Foxes can still play the same way they always have.
Dumping turnip RNG would actually change Peach dramatically.

Yea, between stocks peaches wouldn't just pluck a bunch of turnips in hopes of pulling the stitch to give them a massive headstart on the next stock...

what else would change? the turnip is already good.

 

[Blitzus]

Yea, between stocks peaches wouldn't just pluck a bunch of turnips in hopes of pulling the stitch to give them a massive headstart on the next stock...

what else would change? the turnip is already good.

Oh, so Peaches DON'T pull turnips mid combo to get a turnip to kill the enemy?
I'm sorry, that must be my imagination.

 

[.alizarin]

And does that one frame of invincibility change everything about Fox's moveset? because cutting off some turnips is essentially morphing how peaches will play.... by a lot.
Foxes can still play the same way they always have.
Dumping turnip RNG would actually change Peach dramatically.

I don't think you quite know what you're talking about. At all.

 

[Blitzus]

I don't think you quite know what you're talking about. At all.

Project M: the competitive modification of Super Smash Brothers Brawl.
Some morons want to destroy a character or something.