Tier List Speculation

[ChiePet]

Grounded Shuttle Loop had invincibility in Brawl, def not nado though

Trust my Purple Banner or something

PMBR/PMDT like you make the world a much more enjoyable place.
I'm too dumb to have a Purple Banner D; I can only achieve Blue.

gimme a pink one, yo

 

[Frost | Odds]

What if PM nado had extremely low/no endlag? Would it be problematic? I don't see how, considering that it currently loses to pretty much every move in the game.

Also, what exactly should Pit's niche be? How to make him strong without making him too much like Kirby or MK or Sheik or whoever? Should arrows maybe do a bunch more damage without comboing terribly well? More horizontal mobility/better side B while maintaining the rest of his mediocre kit?

I'm totally at a loss, but they're interesting questions, I think.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

No end lag would be dumb. They could consider the 3.02 nado if they want to give it more useage outside of recovery.

I think the current pit, is just a much worse shiek. His moves don't seem to link well, and I feel like his new kit doesn't mesh well.

 

[Foo]

What if PM nado had extremely low/no endlag? Would it be problematic? I don't see how, considering that it currently loses to pretty much every move in the game.

Also, what exactly should Pit's niche be? How to make him strong without making him too much like Kirby or MK or Sheik or whoever? Should arrows maybe do a bunch more damage without comboing terribly well? More horizontal mobility/better side B while maintaining the rest of his mediocre kit?

I'm totally at a loss, but they're interesting questions, I think.

I think metaknight neutral b is fine, as kinda of a "last ditch" recovery option that goes ridiculously high, but is super punishable. It lets him go deep and recovery better with perfect mashing.

As for pit, I feel like he just needs some tweaks to make his character feel more adhesive. Make a certain setup work a little better, make a move a little longer range etc. However, I am not fully convinced he needs much of anything atm. I'd rather wait till he's more developed first.

 

[Kati]

Also, what exactly should Pit's niche be?

He should be the Pichu of PM. :D

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Also, what exactly should Pit's niche be? How to make him strong without making him too much like Kirby or MK or Sheik or whoever? Should arrows maybe do a bunch more damage without comboing terribly well? More horizontal mobility/better side B while maintaining the rest of his mediocre kit?

I'm totally at a loss, but they're interesting questions, I think.

I can imagine Pit being a character that's good a quick mid range pokes and mix ups. Nothing else though.

 

[Lorenzo The Comic]

He should be the Pichu of PM. :D

PM's supposed to become a balanced game, right?

 

[Warzenschwein]

Omar is already PM's Pichu #notevensureifkappa

 

[steelguttey]

Omar is already PM's Pichu #notevensureifkappa

honestly hes not even bad enough to be considered pichu. the only reason hes bad is because of his recovery

 

[Player -0]

I think un-nerfing some of the weird nerfs to Pit would be a good start.
- D-Tilt not being super slow like it is now.
- Un-nerfing his Bair and F-Smash animation (No Smash 4 pls. It doesn't look good).
- Make it so the jump out of WoI isn't super low (It's his last jump so it's lower than it used to be). It makes it pretty hard to waveland onto platforms as is and is kinda meh.
- Most damage nerfs are probably fine. He can follow up for a lot longer than other characters and carry-offs.
- Make it so glide isn't made for you to suicide faster (for all gliding characters too. You can go down at a steeper angle but you can't go up? lolwhy/what)
- Other minor stuff.

 

[Kati]

PM's supposed to become a balanced game, right?

Can't stop one from dreaming. Kudos to pmdt for making Pit easier to tolerate, what with taking away "HIYAYAYA," but I'd take 40 balanced characters without any mention of Pit over 41 characters any day.

 

[Life]

Speaking as a 3.02 Pit main who was moderately successful at my local tournaments:

The problem with 3.5 Pit is that, generally speaking, 3.5 got rid of things people complained about. People complained about Diddy's banana camping and early fair kills, so those got taken out. People complained about Mewtwo's tail length and his options out of teleport, so those things got nerfed. People complained about Lucas' pressure and easy followups, so those things were tuned down.

People complained about 3.02 Pit's [literally everything], so he lost pretty much everything he had. IMO it was the hardest nerf out of anyone in the cast, taking him from top 5 to bottom 5 in the cast.

I quit playing Pit this patch because I felt he had become substantially less fun to play. His neutral game is worse due to arrow and dtilt nerfs, his grab is no longer threatening at all, his (already SUPER overrated IMO) recovery became trash-tier, etc. etc. (I'm placing around the same since 3.5, maybe a touch better, and I main Squirtle now, if that contextualizes things any.)

In terms of design, here's how I see him. Pit's an angel, so it makes sense that he should be very strong offstage (solid recovery mixups and edgeguarding tools) and good in the air in general (for example, his dair is interesting because it's not good at covering his landings, so he's still at a disadvantage getting juggled and recovering high isn't free, but it pops people up right where he wants them if he does connect it).

He has to have weaknesses to compensate for those strengths, naturally. The way I see it, this means his ground game can't be fantastic, and he should die early from strong hits i.e. be light and floaty (he already is, of course).

Here's how I would have changed 3.02 Pit, with the advantage of hindsight into what was in store for the rest of the cast in 3.5:

Spoiler

1. Dtilt nerf, but not the way it was done in 3.5. Should've made it less rewarding to hit via KB changes, rather than making the startup take so long. (five more frames? on a tilt? really? I could understand, like, two, but...)

2. Fair nerf, but again, not the way it was done. Its BKB was decreased to make it impossible to CC and harder to wall-of-pain with, but combined with the throw nerf and arrow nerf Pit no longer has a way to deal with CC. Instead, give it substantial BKB, low KBG, and a bit more landing lag. This way, Pit can hit it and get a substantial positional reward from it, but no outright followups bar maybe an arrow snipe if he's lucky. It's also laggier aerially this patch, which isn't a big deal IMO.

3. Dthrow nerf, but yet again, it would have been fine with just more knockback (not certain if base or growth would be more appropriate) so that it filled relatively the same function (making Pit's grab actually threatening) but with less strength. The trajectory change makes it basically a second fthrow, and Pit doesn't really have a use for that.

4. Arrow nerf. This one's probably fine as-is actually.

5. Glide speed reduction. Pit's recovery wasn't that great by 3.02 standards, but nobody ever knew how to challenge it. This change makes the counterplay more obvious. With just this nerf (compared to the crippling ones in 3.5), Pit has a good recovery relative to the current PM cast, which is perfectly fine since, again, I see him design-wise as a character who is relatively good offstage/in the air.

6. Possibly a nerf to his dashdance or something? Pit's DD in 3.02 was pretty good, and his punishes off a successful bait-and-grab were pretty strong.

7. Possibly mess with his weight and fall speed? Or his kill power?

(Not sure how I feel about the other random stuff like uair trajectory changes. I'm too busy hurting from the big changes to really tell.)

The end result should be a Pit that feels similar to 3.02 Pit, who for me was an absolute blast to play, but with subtle nerfs so that he has to work harder to win.

I would LOVE to go back to playing Pit. I would LOVE to be the one to say "you can fight through your nerfs" as I'm sure the Mewtwo mains and the Link mains and the Mario mains and the Diddy mains will. But Pit just doesn't work in 3.5, not just because he's weak, but because he's not fun to play.

 

[Dart!]

Wolf, Ike, Falcon, sheik to name a few in my opinion. With grab armor, no invincibility on shine and with how silly hitstun/throw distances are currently in PM fox can be countered by good players that aren't fox johners.

 

[Ripple]

Wolf, Ike, Falcon, sheik to name a few in my opinion. With grab armor, no invincibility on shine and with how silly hitstun/throw distances are currently in PM fox can be countered by good players that aren't fox johners.

I've told you a zillion times in person "grab armor" is a detriment to the person who gets the grab

 

[ChiePet]

THATS IT! I've tried to find the right words for dropping Pit as a Sub for so long;
He's just not fun anymore.

 

[un.dead]

I really wanna Bo15 these haters' mains with my 3.5 Pit

 

[GabPR]

THATS IT! I've tried to find the right words for dropping Pit as a Sub for so long;
He's just not fun anymore.

What made him fun for you ? What would make him fun again?

 

[941]

honestly hes not even bad enough to be considered pichu. the only reason hes bad is because of his recovery

The only reason Ice Climbers are bad is because of bugs that cause things like this to happen pretty frequently.

 

[ChiePet]

What made him fun for you ? What would make him fun again?

Hmm, I'd say DTIlt's Speed, Arrow's Nerf, and the speed/height of the last hop he has when he's Air Side B.

EDIT: I miss being able to mix up between FSmash 1 and 2 vs FSmash 1 and DTilt, I miss just the sheer stun and follow up potential Arrows had, and the speed Pit exits Side B out of is too quick, the lower than average height he exits at just makes it worse, especially when you keep Up B's HB Nerf (personally like this, makes using UP B as a ender much easier, just harder as a recovery tool)

 

[Strong Badam]

I've told you a zillion times in person "grab armor" is a detriment to the person who gets the grab

But Ripple, understanding gameplay mechanics isn't important when it comes to discussing character strengths and tier lists! Also let's just call top players johners, should work out fine

 

[Player -0]

I've told you a zillion times in person "grab armor" is a detriment to the person who gets the grab

Do you mean as a change from Melee? How is it bad though?

 

[Deleted member]

In melee, if you grab someone who hit you with a move, the person who grabs receives no damage.

In PM, the same situation = the person who grabs receives damage.

 

[Player -0]

I know that but I don't see how that's a detriment. You take no knockback and (hopefully) get a kill or pay them back more damage or a pretty good positional advantage.

 

[DMG]

I know that but I don't see how that's a detriment. You take no knockback and (hopefully) get a kill or pay them back more damage or a pretty good positional advantage.

It's true, but you might as well give your opponent damage before he GG's your stock. Hence the PM grab armor mechanic is actually a downside for the grabber (even if you consider it minor to the potential 0-death or damage the throw will deliver), one that idk how many Melee people confuse as "It lets you grab when you shouldn't have". You're merely giving them damage to accept for the grab, a fair trade off compared to Melee.


As long as people understand that PM grab armor = nerf to grabbers, instead of buff, I think complaints would drop off the face of the Earth. Real quick

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

honestly hes not even bad enough to be considered pichu. the only reason hes bad is because of his recovery

and the fact they nerfed, just about everything that even made him useable

I really wanna Bo15 these haters' mains with my 3.5 Pit

you just gonna die to a fox anyway

The only reason Ice Climbers are bad is because of bugs that cause things like this to happen pretty frequently.

There is more than one reason they are bad. I'll just wait for the bug fix, then grab my bucket and fill it with the tears of the few.

 

[steelguttey]

and the fact they nerfed, just about everything that even made him useable

not really. usmash juggles are still here and stamina nerfs werent that bad. fsmash is stupid now and pikmin throw is still just as dumb

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

b-b-but my his other atks

 

[941]

There is more than one reason they are bad. I'll just wait for the bug fix, then grab my bucket and fill it with the tears of the few.

While I agree they have other issues, I believe ICs will be a mid-tier character if they are functional.

 

[Life]

What made him fun for you ? What would make him fun again?

When I first picked up PM around... I think it was 2.0? I wanted to play someone I hadn't touched much in Brawl, and I picked Pit.

I basically spammed glide against CPUs and started giggling like a madman. LOL

Fastforward to 3.02. When my scene started holding PM weeklies, I had bounced around a lot of characters--I wanted to learn like half the cast. But one of the others told me he thought I should drop all my other characters and play Pit, because my Pit was leagues ahead of everything else I played. And in bracket, that's pretty much what I did! Worked out pretty well for me.

My Pit revolved around dashdance grabs, linking my other moves into grab (which I've since integrated into my other characters), well-spaced fairs, dtilt, jab, juggling, arrows, and edgeguarding.

 

[Player -0]

It's true, but you might as well give your opponent damage before he GG's your stock. Hence the PM grab armor mechanic is actually a downside for the grabber (even if you consider it minor to the potential 0-death or damage the throw will deliver), one that idk how many Melee people confuse as "It lets you grab when you shouldn't have". You're merely giving them damage to accept for the grab, a fair trade off compared to Melee.


As long as people understand that PM grab armor = nerf to grabbers, instead of buff, I think complaints would drop off the face of the Earth. Real quick

I wouldn't consider it a downside but it's definitely a nerf. It seems perfectly fair to me.

I think I understand what you're saying though.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Since this is about tier speculations and I am not going through 700 pages, what has been concluded so far?

 

[NTG]

Since this is about tier speculations and I am not going through 700 pages, what has been concluded so far?

Top tier is Ike, Ness, Captain Falcon, Falco

Mid tier is the balanced characters that take skill to play and aren't jank like G&W, Fox, Olimar, Villager, Sonic

Bottom tier is guys like Squirtman because he can't turn around in withdraw anymore, Lucas because M2K beat Pink Fresh, and ZSS because it's possible to DI out of combos, clearly broken

Just main Ganon for the side-B on shield and sweet hoverstomps

 

[941]

Since this is about tier speculations and I am not going through 700 pages, what has been concluded so far?

699 pages of people talking about Fox. The one page of actual tier speculation has been that spacies Sheik and Roy are all top tier. Bowser is bottom tier, Olimar and Ice Climbers are non-functional tier, and everyone else is somewhere in the middle and up for discussion (assuming we talk about someone besides Fox for more than 5 minutes). Also, Ganon is good but considered overrated.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

This thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGUQQq05-Ws

FOX FOX FOX FOX FOX
FOX FOX FOX FOX FOX
FOX FOX FOX FOX FOX
FOX FOX FOX
FOX, EVERYBODY

 

[PlateProp]

What if we take allthe melee out of Fox, and replace it with 64

I ****ing love64 Fox, all his attacks look so dope

 

[Soft Serve]

What if we take allthe melee out of Fox, and replace it with 64

I ****ing love64 Fox, all his attacks look so dope

Land Cancel shines are just as bull**** if not even worse than JC shines

 

[Foo]

What if we take allthe melee out of Fox, and replace it with 64

I ****ing love64 Fox, all his attacks look so dope

As long as he doesn't get to use the c-stick.

 

[Sethlon]

The problem with 3.5 Pit is that, generally speaking, 3.5 got rid of things people complained about. People complained about Diddy's banana camping and early fair kills, so those got taken out. People complained about Mewtwo's tail length and his options out of teleport, so those things got nerfed. People complained about Lucas' pressure and easy followups, so those things were tuned down. People complained about 3.02 Pit's [literally everything], so he lost pretty much everything he had.

Personally I agree that Pit was hit a bit too hard in this patch.....but Its incredibly frustrating that people think this is how the PMDT actually makes changes. "People are complaining, so lets nerf it!" instead of, you know, looking at the move/attribute, checking its values and uses, comparing that to other tools that other characters in PM have, debating for weeks/months and then making changes based off of conclusions from that

 

[941]

Personally I agree that Pit was hit a bit too hard in this patch.....but Its incredibly frustrating that people think this is how the PMDT actually makes changes. "People are complaining, so lets nerf it!" instead of, you know, looking at the move/attribute, checking its values and uses, comparing that to other tools that other characters in PM have, debating for weeks/months and then making changes based off of conclusions from that

Is it possible that some of the things said on the forums are at least considered by the PMDT? Not to accuse you guys of balancing based on popular opinion, but isn't there at least some degree of player feedback taken into account when making balance changes?

 

[jtm94]

It goes without saying that player feedback is taken into consideration. This is a fan-based game.

Regardless this isn't the place to discuss that.

I would feel very comfortable placing Pit quite low on any tier list. He just feels so difficult to get anything to link into anything besides a forward air into itself sometimes or mediocre up air juggles into UpB that KOs at 160. He still feels like he could maybe edgeguard well, but he has no means of getting his opponent there. I know he'll be fine eventually, he might even be secretly crazy right now.