Tier List Speculation

[TSM Khodalyr]

Hmm, I agree he loses to spacies bad but idk about the rest.

He doesn't lose that bad to Peach though if he loses at all. While she isn't combo fodder as long as you respect her nair early on and her Float you can abuse her lack of raw mobility.

Also a lot of the losing in neutral comments aren't as true here. His neutral isn't that bad and he only characters who should outright shut him down are the spacies which is his biggest problem in PM. Lucario isn't good against spacies.

Lucario's problems against Peach aren't only floatiness and nair, there's also her crouch cancel game (Lucario gets bodied by crouch cancel) and the turnips. And Peach has excellent combos on Lucario considering his weight/falling speed that make it easy for a lot of characters to punish Lucario efficiently (which is another very overlooked point when people talk about Lucario, always mentioning how crazy the punish game is but he is quality combo food as well).

 

[CyberZixx]

How does Lucario lose so bad to CC when he can confirm any hit into a command grab?

 

[PlateProp]

How does Lucario lose so bad to CC when he can confirm any hit into a command grab?

Lucario mains tryna trick people smh

 

[Boiko]

How does Lucario lose so bad to CC when he can confirm any hit into a command grab?

I wouldn't really know, but can't the first hit be crouch canceled and then they can act before the command grab comes out?

 

[DMG]

You can't have good spacing on your first attack, then also land command grab in the event that they CC. Lucario's not *that* broken

 

[~Frozen~]

The sideb isn't helping much vs cc, but when you have dtilt, usmash, and a solid dd grab -> uthrow conversion at low % it isn't a problem for him anyway.

 

[Badge]

The sideb isn't helping much vs cc, but when you have dtilt, usmash, and a solid dd grab -> uthrow conversion at low % it isn't a problem for him anyway.

Pretty much what I wanted to say, but I kept getting interrupted by other stuff:

Sweetspot DTilt beats Peach's cc clean at 0% and leads into any of Lucario's smashes. DSmash then causes a knockdown/tech against asdi-down (can't true cc between DSmash and DTilt) and UpSmash again beats ccing clean. Even DA->DTilt, while technically losing to cc Jab, only leaves Peach with a 1 frame window to beat DTilt and a 2 frame window to trade with it using Jab.

At higher percentages DTilt starts knocking down, but that's still a very favorable scenario for Lucario. DSmash also at some point starts killing on missed tech because of DI down, and UpSmash still beats ccing and is another potent kill move if the opponent holds down instead of away (as then the last hit will connect).

Even without those moves, on hit cancels mean that Lucario's moves that are bad against cc still usually let your followup attack come out faster than the opponent's counter attack out of the crouch if timed frame perfectly (which is easy for Lucario and not consistently possible for the opponent), i.e. you need at least an okay crouch cancel game to even effectively threaten a cc.

And then Lucario also has a solid dd and grab that can even hit a crouching Jiggs, which in itself would be enough to not get hard countered by CCing.

CCing isn't useless against Lucario because it can be effective if you have a good cc and either force the Lucario player to misspace or the opponent doesn't expect it, but just holding down without thought can be similiar to doing so against Peach because you then eat tons of damage as you're not SDIing away and after that get send at a low angle by DownSmash or hit and killed by the last hit of UpSmash.

SideB btw. is slow enough that non-tether characters should be able to cc-grab Lucario out of it (or use whatever fast move they prefer).

 

[PootisKonga]

Speaking of CC, what affects how good a character's CC is? I was under the assumption that heavier characters have better CC due to taking less KB in the first place, but I keep hearing about how great Roy's and Peach's CC games are and it's got me very confused.

I mean, Roy being a semi-fast faller means it makes some sense for him, but someone as light and floaty as Peach?
Sorry for the noob question

 

[Jolteon]

Speaking of CC, what affects how good a character's CC is? I was under the assumption that heavier characters have better CC due to taking less KB in the first place, but I keep hearing about how great Roy's and Peach's CC games are and it's got me very confused.

I mean, Roy being a semi-fast faller means it makes some sense for him, but someone as light and floaty as Peach?
Sorry for the noob question

Most likely, they are referring to their options out of CC.

 

[Boiko]

Spoiler

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(Arguable C-Tier gap)

So I'd like to talk about Strong Bad's tier list some more, since it seems to be one of the most accurate baseline lists out there.

Starting from the top, here are some disagreements I have. These are just my opinion of course, and I encourage everyone to say if they agree or disagree and why.


Current Placing: T2
Suggested Placing: T8
Lucario is an amazing character, no doubt in my mind. He has all the tools he needs to succeed at top levels of play. However, he has a relatively strong reliance on having aura. If aura was only used for pressure/combos that would be one thing, but it's also expelled for his recovery. Without aura, Lucario's recovery becomes notably worse, as all characters at the top tier level have a method of gimping him. His recovery certainly isn't bad though, even without aura. It has a degree of mix up and interesting hitboxes, to say the least. Lucario also has a weakness to crouch cancel, and characters with fast combo interrupts, like a frame 3 nair (Peach). If a combo is interrupted after he uses aura to continue it, he kind of wastes that opportunity and has to build it up again. Someone calculated earlier in the thread saying Lucario, on average, will get about 11 aura charges in one game. While this is good, it may not be enough against a majority of top tiers to keep his pressure game consistent.


Current Placing: T5
Suggested Placing: T8
Falco has an extremely solid neutral game, a ridiculous punish game, a great projectile, a fast and strong spike, and other great kill moves. So why shouldn't he be top tier? First of all, smash DI. Falco has no follow ups from a shine or dair that is smash DI'd correctly. And while it may be hard to be consistent with, it's just an easy escape option from his pressure. His horizontal mobility is subpar, and if timed properly, a buffered roll can get you out of his shield pressure, and even far enough away that he has to give enough chase for you to just get away. Lasers are overall less effective in PM than in Melee due to the diverse array of characters that can deal with them now. A large portion of the cast has significant aerial mobility so that they can weave around lasers and close the gap on Falco. His recovery provides a lot of mix up options, but if he does get caught, it's curtains at very low percentage. Lastly, Falco gets comboed to death by a big portion of the cast, and a lot of them can go off stage to shut down his recovery completely. His shine is notably worse than Fox's, and his average run speed means his combo strings can be cut short with proper DI.


Current Placing: T9
Suggested Placing: T5/7
Ike is an amazing character. His nair can be comboed into itself, he has burst movement with mix ups embedded into it. He can go deep off stage with HUGE range and knockback to end stocks extremely early. He has a strong recovery between his wall jump, and his aether having a relatively smally window to punish. He has grab mix ups that convert into kills, damage, or stage positioning. If Ike is charging a quickdraw against Fox, what can you actually do? You can CC the QD attack, but then he just grab you, you can try to jump away, but then he can cancel into upsmash or a large disjointed aerial, you can shield, but then he can just grab you, you can try to hit him out of it, but he has disjoint. You don't have a projectile to stop him either. He has so many options out of burst movement and they all convert extremely well. Plus, he can edge guard with counter if that happens to be favorable. It's just another tool he has. He does have weaknesses, of course. He gets comboed decently hard, and if you catch his recovery quickdraw, he's pretty much dead. But these weaknesses aren't enough to outweigh his strengths and prevent him from being at least top 8 in the game, if not top 5.


Current Placing: T12
Suggested Placing: T7
Samus has great stage control, good projectiles, long range zair, fast moves, great OoS options, good spacing tools, and she's probably the most difficult character the combo in the game. Strong Bad said his list considered the characters that would be faced most frequently in tournament. Some common characters are the spacies, Roy, Ike, Falcon, Diddy... All of who she goes even with or wins against besides Ike and MAYBE Falcon. Her losing match ups are a lot less common that her winning ones. ROB, Tink, and Zelda, for example. But really, there are three players that come to mind when looking at those characters at a top level, so it's not a huge issue. Samus does not need to approach in almost any match up. Her down smash and down tilt are both frame six IIRC and they both convert from CC and lead into potent follow ups. When she's holding a charge shot, you're forced to play very differently. If she connects with a forward tilt or up tilt, two of her best spacing tools, you'll eat the charge shot, so you're almost forced to keep your distance from her. But then she'll just harass with missiles. While most characters can deal with missiles, having to deal with an onslaught of homing missiles and smash missiles while she's holding a charge shot is extremely difficult. If you try to nair through, you're going to get hit by charge shot and then you'll be forced to recover against a missile wall, her up tilt or drop zone nair. Her recovery is still good, despite what other Samus players may say. The fact that she needs to be blast zone killed, dunked low, or hit out of tether, otherwise she's going to make it back, doesn't make a bad recovery. If there is a DBZ moment, her tether allows her to quickly reel back to the stage, and considering aerial interrupts, she should be somewhat comfortable on the ledge. Plus, her recovery has a lot of mix ups. Bomb jumping, just rolling off a bomb, rising grapple, up+b. While none of them are fantastic, having a lot of mix ups and being able to come from different angles, or bait your opponent to commit to something are never bad. Plus, she's one of the only characters who is comfortable in shield, having a 1 frame (with 5 frames of invincibility) OoS option that can be mixed up with up smash if the situation calls for it. Ice mode gave her the tools she needs to deal with floaties at reasonable percentages. Her weaknesses lie in that she has a hard time getting down from juggles, and she dies off the top early. Plus, she has a hard time approaching against projectiles or characters with good reflectors. Her overall combo game is solid, but not amazing. She's more about spacing, threatening with presence, building up damage, and then converting into an edge guard situation.


Current Placing: T32
Suggested Placing: T20
Ness is an overly slept on character with a wide variety of tools, pressure options, kill options, potent edge guarding, and a very strong punish game. He has a solid match up against spacies, Roy, Lucario, Falcon, and Diddy, but loses solidly to Sheik, Samus, Marth, and Ike. The biggest issue with Ness is his terrible recovery. I've said it before, but his recovery is one of the worst in the game. It's incredibly difficult to sweet spot, telegraphed, and he has no hitbox in front of him, so he loses to everything that hit's his face. I've wrote time and time again about Ness' conversions off of a single hit, his ridiculous edge guard mix ups, his solid neutral game, so I'm not going to repeat myself any further (just look a few posts back for the novel). He's a bad combo weight, and should die if he's below the stage. But he has way too many strengths to be on the same tier as anyone else in B-.

That's all I'm going to write about for now.
I have a few other placings I disagree with a bit, but not drastically. For example, Mewtwo, Game and Watch, Peach and Zelda all being a bit higher. Snake, Kirby, Ganon being lower. And then there are characters that I feel really just aren't that developed, like Pikachu and Pit, so placing them effectively is kind of a guessing game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How does Lucario lose so bad to CC when he can confirm any hit into a command grab?

It's not as effective as you think and really really bad if he whiffs it. It's possible but you need to be careful because the spacing is tricky in PM.

 

[TSM Khodalyr]

Lucario mains tryna trick people smh

side b has 12 frames of startup learn the matchup smh

 

[PlateProp]

side b has 12 frames of startup learn the matchup smh

Someone be salty about being called out

 

[Scatz]

Pikachu is hard to place accurately because the requirement of fundamentals is equivalent to Falcon, but higher because Pika has poor range. I think there's only like 2-3 Pikas that are working hard (outside of Anther and Axe) to get some results for him, but the fact is that there's literally no representation of the character in the scene.

 

[Chevy]

Current Placing: T12
Suggested Placing: T7
Samus has great stage control, good projectiles, long range zair, fast moves, great OoS options, good spacing tools, and she's probably the most difficult character the combo in the game. Strong Bad said his list considered the characters that would be faced most frequently in tournament. Some common characters are the spacies, Roy, Ike, Falcon, Diddy... All of who she goes even with or wins against besides Ike and MAYBE Falcon. Her losing match ups are a lot less common that her winning ones. ROB, Tink, and Zelda, for example. But really, there are three players that come to mind when looking at those characters at a top level, so it's not a huge issue. Samus does not need to approach in almost any match up. Her down smash and down tilt are both frame six IIRC and they both convert from CC and lead into potent follow ups. When she's holding a charge shot, you're forced to play very differently. If she connects with a forward tilt or up tilt, two of her best spacing tools, you'll eat the charge shot, so you're almost forced to keep your distance from her. But then she'll just harass with missiles. While most characters can deal with missiles, having to deal with an onslaught of homing missiles and smash missiles while she's holding a charge shot is extremely difficult. If you try to nair through, you're going to get hit by charge shot and then you'll be forced to recover against a missile wall, her up tilt or drop zone nair. Her recovery is still good, despite what other Samus players may say. The fact that she needs to be blast zone killed, dunked low, or hit out of tether, otherwise she's going to make it back, doesn't make a bad recovery. If there is a DBZ moment, her tether allows her to quickly reel back to the stage, and considering aerial interrupts, she should be somewhat comfortable on the ledge. Plus, her recovery has a lot of mix ups. Bomb jumping, just rolling off a bomb, rising grapple, up+b. While none of them are fantastic, having a lot of mix ups and being able to come from different angles, or bait your opponent to commit to something are never bad. Plus, she's one of the only characters who is comfortable in shield, having a 1 frame (with 5 frames of invincibility) OoS option that can be mixed up with up smash if the situation calls for it. Ice mode gave her the tools she needs to deal with floaties at reasonable percentages. Her weaknesses lie in that she has a hard time getting down from juggles, and she dies off the top early. Plus, she has a hard time approaching against projectiles or characters with good reflectors. Her overall combo game is solid, but not amazing. She's more about spacing, threatening with presence, building up damage, and then converting into an edge guard situation.

I'd just like to correct that f-tilt is not going to lead into a charge shot unless it's like a tech chase on a fast-faller(maybe). And her up-b is pseudo frame 1 because of the aforementioned 5 frames of invincibility(3 in the air), but the hitbox isn't out until frame 4.

 

[Boiko]

I'd just like to correct that f-tilt is not going to lead into a charge shot unless it's like a tech chase on a fast-faller(maybe). And her up-b is pseudo frame 1 because of the aforementioned 5 frames of invincibility(3 in the air), but the hitbox isn't out until frame 4.

Yeah, at mid percentage f tilt causes a tech chase in which you have the fear of charge shot and then she can just cover other tech options. Edit: On Fast fallers that is, basically the whole top tier.

 

[TSM Khodalyr]

Someone be salty about being called out

Nah just bored of people johning about lucario instead of learning the matchup like everyone

 

[KhanYe]

Fair play to the person who talked about Peach, I agree that Peach's CC options on the ground may not give her the best options to deal with DA->DTilt from Lucario. However, it's extremely hard to link a dtilt out of a dash attack on a CCing opponent from what I know about Lucario. You should be able to CC through most of the time. However, I'm open to the idea that Lucario-Peach isn't as one-sided as I may think it is.

Anyone who thinks Lucario can safely get dashattack->commandgrab on shield doesn't know the matchup.

Anyone know usmash's startup btw?

I agree with everything you saId besides Ness, Boiko. I think you might overrate his tools in neutral because not a lot of people know the matchup. I'd give you specifics, but I'd essentially be echoing most of NZA's sentiments.

 

[Scatz]

I think people need to understand frame data vs Lucario. He's the only one where if you don't exactly know how much time you have before he can smack you with something else, you're just going to give Lucario free pressure and hits.

 

[Boiko]

I agree with everything you saId besides Ness, Boiko. I think you might overrate his tools in neutral because not a lot of people know the matchup. I'd give you specifics, but I'd essentially be echoing most of NZA's sentiments.

Disjoint, projectile, mix ups, grab follow ups, DJC mechanics, solid dash speed, and DD, and moves that can't be CC'd. He has every tool needed to succeed in the neutral.

If you want to talk player specific, Frozen and Stereo play frequently. Their winner's finals set of Nebulous still went to game five, with Stereo taking the first two games. Now, you may think, okay, well, Stereo just knows Frozen's style really well, and it can go either way. That's a fair argument. Even so, I just played Frozen last week, and although he won, 2-0, I kept it extremely close the entire time. Frozen is without a doubt a better player than me, and familiar with the match up. Mewtwo has huge hitboxes, which are generally one of Ness' weaknesses, but I just used different tools to slip past and get something going. He has way too many mix ups in the neutral, and all of them can lead to something, for him to not have a decent neutral game.

I don't know much about NZA's opinions regarding Ness, but if he thinks his weakness lies in the neutral game, he's wrong. He has solid neutral, above average punishes, but very weak recovery.

 

[PlateProp]

Nah just bored of people johning about lucario instead of learning the matchup like everyone

Johning =/= calling people out

Don't be stupid man

 

[Divinokage]

Oh I was referring to Ganon's run speed, not to you as a player, haha

The Brawl AT I was reffering to is this. It's Ganon's fastest way to go from one side of the stage to the other as far as I am aware. And from there you can double jump, do a dropzone aerial, or waveland back onto the stage. Maybe more idk, you're basically airborne right next to a ledge, go crazy dude.
And here's an example of when you could have used it.

Actual PM Ganon mains could probably expand your bag of tricks more than I could in a year, but that's what really stood out to me as a former Brawl player and stuff.

Ah I just saw the picture, that's interesting. I guess i need to practice these things. Thanks! =)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser needs buffs? That's like saying Fox needs buffs

- Actual quote from high profile member of my amazing local scene

sigh

 

[Player -0]

@ Divinokage I meant even if Armada saw a couple of the options he wouldn't get it down perfectly in 1 set. I could say that M2K is a top level player and adapting isn't that bad but he complains a lot about characters without much merit/knowledge.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lucario
Ftilt>side b
frame trap
Scary

 

[Divinokage]

@ Divinokage I meant even if Armada saw a couple of the options he wouldn't get it down perfectly in 1 set. I could say that M2K is a top level player and adapting isn't that bad but he complains a lot about characters without much merit/knowledge.

That, he definitely does. Ally also told me that Armada's Fox was a lot harder than M2k's Fox. I can probably agree with that as well just due to the fact that Armada's mindset is x10 better.

 

[GabPR]

What are some characters would you guys say have a chance to change their placing in the tier lists?

 

[Deleted member]

(Lucario gets bodied by crouch cancel)

everyone gets bodied by CC, lucario has more to deal with it than most chars do

 

[TSM Khodalyr]

everyone gets bodied by CC, lucario has more to deal with it than most chars do

lucario has one move to do it efficiently which is down tilt. You can't upsmash out of a properly spaced dash attack

so if what you said was true no character in the cast has more than one move to break crouch cancel efficiently ? come on

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Fair play to the person who talked about Peach, I agree that Peach's CC options on the ground may not give her the best options to deal with DA->DTilt from Lucario. However, it's extremely hard to link a dtilt out of a dash attack on a CCing opponent from what I know about Lucario. You should be able to CC through most of the time. However, I'm open to the idea that Lucario-Peach isn't as one-sided as I may think it is.

Anyone who thinks Lucario can safely get dashattack->commandgrab on shield doesn't know the matchup.

Anyone know usmash's startup btw?

I agree with everything you saId besides Ness, Boiko. I think you might overrate his tools in neutral because not a lot of people know the matchup. I'd give you specifics, but I'd essentially be echoing most of NZA's sentiments.

I believe up smash comes out frame 12. I will double check it in a little bit.

 

[Deleted member]

lucario has one move to do it efficiently which is down tilt. You can't upsmash out of a properly spaced dash attack

so if what you said was true no character in the cast has more than one move to break crouch cancel efficiently ? come on

you got dtilt, grab, and a mechanic that throws off normal CC timing. you have it way better than a ton of characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

*post*

Your "Top X" rankings are incorrect. For example, Lucario being "tied for 2nd" does not make him top 2; it makes him top 4, similar to how placing 9th at a tournament makes you top 12 and not top 9. Likewise, Falco being tied for 5th makes him top 8. Etc. etc.
Neat write-ups though, I'm going to wait a while longer to respond to stuff like this so that more discussion can occur without influencing people's opinions further. I like how the Tier LIst thread has been the past two days.

 

[TSM Khodalyr]

you got dtilt, grab, and a mechanic that throws off normal CC timing. you have it way better than a ton of characters.

right because other characters don't have a grab. Knowing the timing is just part of learning the matchup. My training partners don't have problems punishing something with crouch cancel, and only the sweetspotted down tilt breaks crouch cancel which connects on a well spaced dash attack meaning that if I'm comboing someone he can crouch cancel and stop my combo (gnw dtilt fox shine etc). The situations where you can outright beat crouch cancel with a well spaced dtilt are specific and don't represent all the situations where crouch cancel is used against lucario. Though I will admit it is something that makes some matchups not as one-sided (regarding peach cc), and it is an element I don't always have in mind when I'm ingame.

Still, thinking that Lucario has a way better time dealing with crouch cancel than a ton of characters is a huge misconception considering he concretely has the sweetspot of one single move to break it (outside of grabs obviously)

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ KhanYe

I just checked. Up smash comes out frame 10 uncharged. 3 frames in AttackHi4Start, then the 7th frame of AttackHi4 is when hitboxes come out.

 

[Jams.]

- Actual quote from high profile member of my amazing local scene

sigh

To be fair, IDK if he was serious about his statement or not. Even if he was, it can be difficult to actually understand a character's limitations when that character is beating the entire local scene, especially with a limited understanding of Project M. A bad character bodying everyone will inevitably lead to biases in the community.

At least people understand on this board. =P

 

[_A1]

Speaking of CC, what affects how good a character's CC is? I was under the assumption that heavier characters have better CC due to taking less KB in the first place, but I keep hearing about how great Roy's and Peach's CC games are and it's got me very confused.

I mean, Roy being a semi-fast faller means it makes some sense for him, but someone as light and floaty as Peach?
Sorry for the noob question

Pretty certain that having a good CC means that you have good options out of CC. Like Roy D-tilt or Peach D-smash.

 

[Divinokage]

everyone gets bodied by CC, lucario has more to deal with it than most chars do

Ganon wrecks CC at any %, too strong! =)

 

[steelguttey]

the thing about cc is that if youre crouchin youre ready to punish a slow move (ganon's everything) with a dtilt (with most characters at least)

 

[Divinokage]

the thing about cc is that if youre crouchin youre ready to punish a slow move (ganon's everything) with a dtilt (with most characters at least)

You shouldn't even be crouching if Ganon is falling down on you. You gotta juggle him before he hits you in that situation.

 

[trash?]

trying to CC a ganon in pm is begging for a sideb to the grill