Tier List Speculation

[CyberZixx]

Well, to understand what makes a character good, we must in turn understand the mechanics behind that which makes them good.

 

[941]

Well, to understand what makes a character good, we must in turn understand the mechanics behind that which makes them good.

I agree, but if the game mechanic has little to do with a character being good/bad, it's not very relevant to the topic.

Yoshi seems like a really good character, but I don't see many Yoshi players and I'm wondering if there is something I don't know about him that turns people away.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Welp; won another regional, probably made SuPeRbOoMfAn quit PM forever, and re-ignited the weirdly localized discussion about how Bowser is obviously OP and needs to be nerfed.

c'est la vie

 

[Player -0]

@Lunchables I'd argue nerfing Marth's hang time is less important than nerfing Roy's. This is because Marth's can be CC'ed and has less angles, making it much easier to edgeguard.

 

[Ace55]

Ok I seriously thought Ike's armor on up-B had been removed in like 2.1 or something. So he get's the huge swinging circle of doom that many characters have trouble challenging (not Marth though), sucks you in, tends to sakurai combo if you grab the ledge afterwards, allows you to move sidewards far more than the animation would suggest and it also has some armor during the most vulnerable part just in case. Why?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Strong Bad and I have a pretty good understanding on the current 3.5 meta, so whenever other people post lists they're eaten alive

True. I'd post my list, but way too lazy.

 

[MLGF]

He has light armor on the very start of it, it then goes away.
He's also entirely vulnerable as he's going up.

 

[Leafeon]

What I'd do for Roy in the next build

• More end lag on DED 4th hit reverse (+5 probably)
• D tilt tip BKB matched to melee (90 -> 70)
• Up B Float removed

After playing a lot vs Sethlon, I can testify that there is definitely good counter play to Roys D tilt. Although D tilts 90bkb breaks ASDI Down at 0%, True CC beats D tilt until about 60%. I've also been able to DI D tilt away on reaction, usually because I can tell that D tilt is already going to happen. If you don't DI D tilt away, then you're either going to get fair'd or fsmashed, so its a 50/50 between doing combo DI or survival DI.

If you choose survival DI and get fair'd, prepare to eat a footstool and a gfycat on the pm subreddit.

I think the tip being lower knockback could be an indirect buff for a character that has a lot of trouble with floaties like samus. I would instead see the angle become useless.

 

[Boiko]

He has light armor on the very start of it, it then goes away.
He's also entirely vulnerable as he's going up.

How many frames is he really going up for? Seems like a pretty high risk:reward scenario.

 

[MLGF]

It really isn't, I get it pretty consistently against people who recover poorly. I recommend ledge drops to get invincible as you're going down, and then proceed to hit with essentially any reliable move, as ike likely won't make it back regardless of what you hit him with.

 

[Foo]

Since when did this thread become "HEY GUYS LOOK I WON A TOURNAMENT" speculation?

He has light armor on the very start of it, it then goes away.
He's also entirely vulnerable as he's going up.

But why does he need the armor at all? I feel like if someone gets in front of or behind ike during that part of the animation and hits them, they deserve it.

 

[Juushichi]

I think Bowser winning a tournament is probably pretty impressive, so big ups to Odds beating Boom since iirc he was mostly running that area to my knowledge. I think the improvements to Bowser's mobility have really opened up doors for that character.

How much so, not entirely sure.

Our #1 Hanky Panky, #3 Fizzle and #5 Abu all think that Bowser is top tier. I don't agree, but it's interesting to see how they feel about it.

 

[steelguttey]

who does boofman play in pm?

 

[MLGF]

Since when did this thread become "HEY GUYS LOOK I WON A TOURNAMENT" speculation?



But why does he need the armor at all? I feel like if someone gets in front of or behind ike during that part of the animation and hits them, they deserve it.

IDK, it's not particularly overpowering or anything however.
That wasn't even my initial argument. I'm just saying, there's plenty of ways around it though.

 

[PlateProp]

You guys do realize that light armor stops working at like 40% right

Edit: I cant even find anywhere that says Ike has light armor on that, I think you guys are just bejng stupid

 

[MLGF]

^ That too.
I feel like people are just jumping the Ike is OP bandwaggon because reasons.

Ike players didn't get heavy nerfs, and we didn't have large MU knowledge like Melee tops. Of course there would be an influx of Ike's in 3.5 this early on. While I think, as Lunchables has pointed out time and time again, that QD attack is really out of place in his current kit, some of these complaints are just kinda... silly.

I told a local player where Ike is vulnerable, and he caught on mad fast. It's really not at all difficult once you know how to fight it, just takes the initial knowledge. And if Ike really IS a problem for you personally, I think it may be worth just finding out how to fight it before claiming nerf. This guy is not close to top tier anyhow, he has quite a few weaknesses, lol.

 

[ChiePet]

I've already explained the benefit and depth of existing rng mechanics like olimar's, and everyone has just continued suggesting different ideas without discussion. I'm starting to remember why I don't post here...

Adding a set cycle adds a completely non-intuitive change to a move that the majority of players have no problem with. As a game design choice, it is extremely inorganic and sloppy. Why would you make peach pull 50 turnips to get a stitch? It just seems like a silly arbitrary changes with the same overall effect as the initial, forcing people to learn about an entirely new mechanic because 'hurr rng is bad'. Furthermore, it removes the aspect of the game where at any point in time, peach could pull an extremely dangerous item and force BOTH players to adapt to a sudden situation change. When peach pulls a bomb, beam sword, stitch, or mr. saturn, she threatens the opponent in completely different ways. The peach player has to immediately change what they are doing to best take advantage of their blessing, while the opponent has to be on their feet and be ready to change their counterplay immediately. Changing to a turnip counter completely removes this aspect of the game and makes neutral against peach just a little less skillful; I always know I'll be safe from stitches or bombs and the threat of peach pulling a bunch of turnips is almost non existent because I know whenever the stitch/bomb/sword is coming and I can just wait until then to prepare for it. A big advantage of the stitch/bomb is that it's totally unexpected; if I know when it's coming I'll never be on the back foot and it will always be easy to avoid.

This kind of masturbatory, arbitrary push for change is exactly what a ton of people hate about the PM community. There is absolutely no reason to change a mechanic in a mostly well balanced, mid tier character, and yall are pushing for it to be changed based on rng making you uncomfortable. Pro tip: a stitchface has never won somebody a match. It's always your fault for allowing your opponent the opportunity to grab a turnip, and you are 100% responsible for the result of that interaction, even if it is an item that does 40%

And this is all coming from a guy who has lost a set to a peach when they pulled 6 stichfaces, 2 bombs, and a beam sword

*applause*
Thank you, I had no words to say, this did everything so efficiently.
Peach will always be Peach.
#TurnUp

 

[Hylian]

Ok I seriously thought Ike's armor on up-B had been removed in like 2.1 or something. So he get's the huge swinging circle of doom that many characters have trouble challenging (not Marth though), sucks you in, tends to sakurai combo if you grab the ledge afterwards, allows you to move sidewards far more than the animation would suggest and it also has some armor during the most vulnerable part just in case. Why?

Speaking of this, I felt like I lost this tournament set to Ike's up-b -.-.

http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/637016228?t=1h25m8s

 

[Ace55]

^ That too.
I feel like people are just jumping the Ike is OP bandwaggon because reasons.

I never implied Ike as a whole is OP. I was just shocked that he still has armor on his already rather intimidating upB (seriously thought only 2.0 Ike had that). I feel like that's just overkill.

Heck I love watching good Ike's play and play him a bit myself. But there is no reason for him to have armor there, it's just seems like insurance when you **** up.

Edit: I cant even find anywhere that says Ike has light armor on that, I think you guys are just bejng stupid

I posted a vid showing it dude...

 

[Binary Clone]

You guys do realize that light armor stops working at like 40% right

Edit: I cant even find anywhere that says Ike has light armor on that, I think you guys are just bejng stupid

We have this great new thing called "Debug Mode" that lets you check these things in like 30 seconds now.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Since when did this thread become "HEY GUYS LOOK I WON A TOURNAMENT" speculation?

Sorry. I just wanted to stroke my ego and simultaneously complain about how huge amounts of hard work is rewarded mostly by the locals complaining about my character.

It's possible that we've been collectively underrating Bowser, but I tend to perform massively worse against mediocre players who understand the matchup and/or play tough MUs for Bowser; than I do against very strong players who don't really understand the MU terribly well and are inclined instead to simply whine about it.

Boom played Roy and got demolished pretty hard.

Anyway, I just think that the difficulty of many of Bowser's matchups may have been overstated. I still don't think he's anywhere near top tier (partially due to his horrifically bad, bad MUs), but having managable MUs against many of the current tops is a hell of an asset. I'll probably have to review and redo my MU chart.

I still believe strongly that he's overdue for a redesign. His range is kind of oppressive for a lot of characters to deal with, and makes me feel like I'm playing Spaced Fairs and Dtilts, The Character rather than Bowser, King of Reads. The armor (particularly on dash attack) is extremely tough for some characters to get through, given its horizontal and vertical reach. Some chars just don't seem to have ways to force Bowser to commit, and MUs turn into me holding down and waiting for opponent to do anything, then tapping forward and down on the C-stick for instant dash attack (and in some cases, 0-death).

It's still really hard to say how much of this is myself or my opponents not understanding specific matchups, and how much is actual problems with the character's design; but it's pretty unanimous across the board that playing against my Bowser is spectacularly unfun.

I'd murder for the chance to play like 10 hours of friendlies with some real high level players with voices in the community like Hylian, Strong Bad, POOB, Zwarm, etc; and try to actually figure out the truth of what's going on with Bowser; but my regional scene is mostly so terrible at the matchup that it's still mostly guesswork based on my experience with bads, and the very small sample size of my tournament matches.

 

[.alizarin]

*applause*
Thank you, I had no words to say, this did everything so efficiently.
Peach will always be Peach.
#TurnUp

and i made a counter argument: Tier List Speculation

since oracle likes to repeat things without ever grasping what other people are saying first, and since you seem to think you're on the same page as him, maybe you can elaborate and actually say something worthwhile in response to my post. i'd like to know your thoughts on this one. i'm genuinely curious.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar still kicks bowsers ass tho

kek<------

kek

kek

 

[PlateProp]

We have this great new thing called "Debug Mode" that lets you check these things in like 30 seconds now.View attachment 43172

I'm sorry that you're bad and have to ***** about a mechanic that does nothing to help ike unless he's at 0%

Edit: actually doesnt even help at 0 because the only things light armor stuffs are low kb projectiles, and no one's gonna ****ing try and gimp him with one of those since it would do nothing

 

[MLGF]

Speaking of this, I felt like I lost this tournament set to Ike's up-b -.-.

http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/637016228?t=1h25m8s

I actually practice getting kills off aether, lol. It's pretty fun

 

[steelguttey]

I'm sorry that you're bad and have to ***** about a mechanic that does nothing to help ike unless he's at 0%

somebody got defensive

 

[Binary Clone]

I'm sorry that you're bad and have to ***** about a mechanic that does nothing to help ike unless he's at 0%

Seriously?

I'm sorry, please point out to me any point at which I even mentioned Ike's armor besides the image post that was completely neutral on the topic? You were wrong on something you easily could've checked yourself, and so I called you out.

Calling me out doesn't work when it's about something I've never said, and ******** about people who never even said anything makes you look a bit more like a whiner yourself. Please, contain your salt.

@ Frost | Odds

I've been playing some Bowser for fun recently, and I think I agree. I feel like Bowser is either very fun or very frustrating to play as, and also either fun or very frustrating to play against, just depending on the MU and MU knowledge. If you destroy Bowser, you basically combo him for days, and hey, that's kind of fun, unless you're the Bowser player. But if you don't have the MU or MU knowledge, Bowser can kill at what feels like absurdly low percents off the top, can juggle very hard, and can result in tons of salt.

 

[PlateProp]

somebody got defensive

Because no one ever bothers to actually learn how armor works, they just spit out random **** about it

In all honesty it should be scrapped aside from light, med/heavy armor is stupid

Seriously?

I'm sorry, please point out to me any point at which I even mentioned Ike's armor besides the image post that was completely neutral on the topic? You were wrong on something you easily could've checked yourself, and so I called you out.

Calling me out doesn't work when it's about something I've never said, and *****ing about people who never even said anything makes you look a bit more like a whiner yourself. Please, contain your salt.

@ Frost | Odds

I've been playing some Bowser for fun recently, and I think I agree. I feel like Bowser is either very fun or very frustrating to play as, and also either fun or very frustrating to play against, just depending on the MU and MU knowledge. If you destroy Bowser, you basically combo him for days, and hey, that's kind of fun, unless you're the Bowser player. But if you don't have the MU or MU knowledge, Bowser can kill at what feels like absurdly low percents off the top, can juggle very hard, and can result in tons of salt.

It wasn't meant to you specifically, it was to the people in the thread complaining, I ****ed up in put you're instead of you all
Oh well

 

[Jacob29]

Seriously?

I'm sorry, please point out to me any point at which I even mentioned Ike's armor besides the image post that was completely neutral on the topic? You were wrong on something you easily could've checked yourself, and so I called you out.

Calling me out doesn't work when it's about something I've never said, and *****ing about people who never even said anything makes you look a bit more like a whiner yourself. Please, contain your salt.

@ Frost | Odds

I've been playing some Bowser for fun recently, and I think I agree. I feel like Bowser is either very fun or very frustrating to play as, and also either fun or very frustrating to play against, just depending on the MU and MU knowledge. If you destroy Bowser, you basically combo him for days, and hey, that's kind of fun, unless you're the Bowser player. But if you don't have the MU or MU knowledge, Bowser can kill at what feels like absurdly low percents off the top, can juggle very hard, and can result in tons of salt.

The amount of Bowser salt I get from players who are newer to the MU is insane..

 

[Binary Clone]

It wasn't meant to you specifically, it was to the people in the thread complaining, I ****ed up in put you're instead of you all
Oh well

Aight, that makes more sense.

Because no one ever bothers to actually learn how armor works, they just spit out random **** about it

In all honesty it should be scrapped aside from light, med/heavy armor is stupid

I think med/heavy does have applications, but I definitely think you're right about nobody knowing how armor works. There's tons of different types, but literally everyone I know just refers to any type of armor as "super armor" even though there are so many types that really should be distinguished.

The amount of Bowser salt I get from players who are newer to the MU is insane..

A lot of it is about the kill power and the armor. Plus if people don't know about Bowser Bomb cancel, they die off the top from uairs they don't see coming even despite the massive startup.

Most people are unfamiliar with dealing with that level of armor - it's similar to how people can get ****ed up playing against Yoshi, except he actually has armored attacks and crouch/crawl, which makes it even more prevalent in the neutral.

 

[PlateProp]

In many places the standard (not yoshis) armor is just lazy design, characers have basically been given counters that they get punished for using the way they were designed in the form of taking percent. It works for Bowser because his weight makes his armor last until he's in kill percent anyways, but for others not so much

Edit: Also DDD kinda because his dash attack and up b ****

 

[Ripple]

people mention DDD's up-b all the time when armor discussion comes up apparently not knowing it only has armor on grounded up-b.

I told PMDT to fix the color overlay since it absolutely does not have armor in the air.

I don't even know why they kept armor on grounded version, in absolutely no way, shape, or form is grounded up-b ever a good idea OOS; even if it had true super armor it wouldn't be good

 

[941]

I don't even know why they kept armor on grounded version, in absolutely no way, shape, or form is grounded up-b ever a good idea OOS; even if it had true super armor it wouldn't be good

Darn, I thought I had finally found a good OOS option for DDD.

 

[Binary Clone]

Darn, I thought I had finally found a good OOS option for DDD.

Even if they hit you and your armor saves you and you hit them on your way up, I'm pretty sure it's waaay too punishable for it to be a good option. You're just stuck in the air for so long, and that initial hit isn't going to keep them occupied nearly long enough.

 

[Jacob29]

A lot of it is about the kill power and the armor. Plus if people don't know about Bowser Bomb cancel, they die off the top from uairs they don't see coming even despite the massive startup.

Most people are unfamiliar with dealing with that level of armor - it's similar to how people can get ****ed up playing against Yoshi, except he actually has armored attacks and crouch/crawl, which makes it even more prevalent in the neutral.

Yeah playing against a Lucario player who feels Bowser completely shuts down Lucario's neutral game and finds it impossible to get past my Fair when edgeguarding him.

 

[trash?]

don't you got a command grab, though?

y'all need to remember my guide on this, I finished this matchup ages ago

 

[CyberZixx]

Bowser is just weird to fight. You gotta camp him and pick your openings super well because his armor demands respect and with one mishap you can die. At least that is how I feel as a Roy player.

 

[eideeiit]

Even if they hit you and your armor saves you and you hit them on your way up, I'm pretty sure it's waaay too punishable for it to be a good option. You're just stuck in the air for so long, and that initial hit isn't going to keep them occupied nearly long enough.

You can stop it at any moment so I could see it being viable under platforms like Samus's up-b, except perhaps only high ones.

 

[didds]

RNG topic hmmm.

CUZ ITS FUN!

 

[GabPR]

Got 2nd in a tournament today going mostly IC's. I had really close games with Metroid in finals when I went IC's, tried Link in grands and got 4 stocked game 1(looool ok maybe link is actually bad) and then Ic's game 2 which was last stock highish%, then lucario game 3 where I got wrecked. Went all IC's in WF and it was 3-1 in his favor with the matches being close.

This was with broken glitch IC's. When they are fixed people better not sleep on them, I'm going to take names.

Edit: Here's some juicy stuff: http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/637016228?t=1h18m38s

So link is suddenly bad because you got 4 stocked once by arguably one the top PM players at the scene?? You said your Lucario also got wrecked, does this mean lucario sucks too?

Edit: in all seriousnes though, why do you REALLY think link may be bad?