Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

i just figured nair was close enough to his jump attack

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sonic would be the first character to be able to crouch while running and not only carry momentum smoothly, but also have a hitbox.

Let's go PMDT

 

[steelguttey]

mario's footstool should be instakill

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

People don't do the multiple wall jumps because it's a one-frame window that will kill you if you mess up.

Did you use debug to figure that out?

 

[MLGF]

Real talk, Sonic dash cancel -> jab -> grab -> Up Throw -> Up Air seems mad good. I don't know much about getting in with Sonic, but this seems like a safe guarantee. Not sure why people don't do it, lol.

 

[vanhuynh16]

This is actually a lie. Ike can still do more than one wall jump. I have been lazy about it, but I was planning on making a video.

Disclaimer
Ike can do more than one walljump and I will tell you some of the ways that you can do these.

1. Go for the wall jump, use a jump, and then you can do a wall jump again.
2. You can do a side b wall jump, then do an aerial and wall jump again. I've done it maybe 5 er so times with just bair.

IKE CAN STILL CLIMB THE WALLS

Simple

1. Get gud at wave bouncing.
2. Go to wall.
3. Side b wall jump>>>
4. Then before you get to far away from the wall, start doing your climb ( start doing wave bounced side b's to climb the wall.)
5. There is no cap on this.

I can make this a video for those who do not believe.

Can you make this video please??

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'll try to have it up today. I'll post it here and in the ike section when its done.
@ V vanhuynh16

 

[GabPR]

Real talk, Sonic dash cancel -> jab -> grab -> Up Throw -> Up Air seems mad good. I don't know much about getting in with Sonic, but this seems like a safe guarantee. Not sure why people don't do it, lol.

It can be crouch cancelled and its weight and percent dependant, but you are right though, it has pretty neat followups.

 

[Player -0]

Been meaning to test if you can footstool out of Down B for Sonic. Can anyone check this?

 

[vanhuynh16]

I'll try to have it up today. I'll post it here and in the ike section when its done.
@ V vanhuynh16

Awesome! Looking forward to it!

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Been meaning to test if you can footstool out of Down B for Sonic. Can anyone check this?

Rephrase that so I can understand what you're saying.

 

[steelguttey]

that isnt hard to understand

can you footstool out of sonics down b

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

that isnt hard to understand

can you footstool out of sonics down b

IT AINT THAT CLEAR
BUT I TINK ITS CAN HE DO DAT
WHILE HE IS IN HIS DOWN B
The answer is yes.

 

[Warzenschwein]

can't expect brain usage from a fox main AMIRITE kappa?

 

[Narpas_sword]

mario's footstool should be instakill

Except Squirtle.

Squirtle just gets put into Withdraw.

 

[jtm94]

Can he really footstool out of DownB?
The character I have the most experience against in this game is Sonic.

He has to have one of the best throw games. It's literally textbook Falcon downthrow tech chase, downthrow at edge to drop zone aerial, or upthrow into nair > nair > whatever. Sonic doesn't need to jab to grab because SideB goes into grab. His jabs are pretty good though and his tilts aren't bad either. Jab1 > Jab2 > Dtilt > Jab1 > Jab2 > Dtilt > Utilt > uair > uair. His Dtilt is so weird because it hits you at an angle behind him, but smash sense says to DI away in front of him, but it doesn't work.

Homing attack is also still good.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I thought the question was, can sonic footstool someone, while he is using his down b...

 

[PD | Lewd]

Let's give his jump a hitbox.

Oh god why

 

[GabPR]

Been meaning to test if you can footstool out of Down B for Sonic. Can anyone check this?

If you ment during down b the no (it would be funny broken though) but you can do it AFTER down b since its essentially just doing a double jump.

 

[Deleted member]

If it makes you feel any better, DVD JV5'd someone in his pool and the kid unplugged his controller and left the venue.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS +999 POINTS TO DVD

 

[KrobbleGoo]

Chao based moveset confirmed for balance.

 

[Frakture]

Did you use debug to figure that out?

Yeah, I tested it a while ago. Ike's walljump animation is 5 frames (I think; it's been a while). If you input something on frame 4, it will cancel the animation and skip the walljump check, allowing Ike to walljump again. The game seems to check at least 2 things though, because the walljumps decay in height over time, so the game does seem to know how many walljumps you've done.

 

[Juushichi]

Lmao no but I could do a particular character, like one you're having issues with or something
In fact i heard u don't like rob

Ike/Peach/Wario for me pls

@ MLGF : ggs, i will get you next time

 

[MLGF]

Looking forward to it

 

[_A1]

can't expect brain usage from a fox main AMIRITE kappa?

@ImG | PF | Softie It's funny because you play Fox in Melee yet you liked this comment.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You know, I'm looking at characters who really feel (to me) like they dictate neutral in any matchup, like Diddy who is mobile and has a banana, and ZSS who has fox tier mobility and a few good spacing tools, and I'm realizing that the reasons they don't feel absurd is that they don't have any direct paths from neutral to secure a stock. They typically require set-ups to get kills, or a read. Like we talk a lot of neutral game being the most important aspect of the game because it's the precursor to the actual punish game of taking stocks, but really a lot of characters don't punish 0-to-death nearly as often without reading the opponent as they do set up a heavily staggered situation then poke and prod until they force the opponent to make a mistake or until they get a set-up that leads directly to a kill. But staggered situations don't ALWAYS lead to a kill, and when you reset to neutral from that kind of situation is when you really feel the shortcomings of those characters like ZSS and Diddy who are gods of neutral but can't secure kills straight out of neutral. So I'm thinking, why is fox also allowed to be a god of neutral, but has one of the fastest (and still one of the strongest) vertical kill moves in the game? And in addition that, a throw that leads to a vertical kill aerial and the ability to also approach with said aerial? And with the best gimp tool in the game? Diddy and ZSS have nothing like that. Why doesn't he have the typical shortcoming of requiring a degree of outplaying the other player to finish stocks, like other characters that win neutral more frequently and thus don't need that same amount of outplaying to build the initial damage?

I feel like you can let fox players still feel like gods if they can still move and pressure like gods, if you toned down the kill tools. And then PMDT could even afford to do that great thing they've done with Ganon and Sheik and Falcon, and make fox feel fresh. You could give him an improved dthrow that could combo or tech chase better, a brand new fair that covers a different zone or fills a combo niche with a unique knockback angle. Give shine lower base knockback and some growth, so it can't gimp until mid percents, but then, you can get off shine grab on shields even if they take the shine hit (at low percents)? Would fox players not like that? Granted his throws would be less powerful with uthrow-uair not killing at 100 anymore, but it would undoubtedly feel satisfying. Plus there would be ranges for waveshining almost any character, thunder's comboing any character, it would give fox players more to explore and simultaneously feel less absurd to be on the receiving end when waveshine-usmash or waveshine-uthrow-uair aren't killing you so early.

And if you gave Falco similar treatment (for freshness sake since he doesn't seem as dominating in PM), you could do more cool stuff with his throws. Like dthrow for example is kinda bad atm, but if he threw them at the floor first (and quickly), THEN shot lasers, it'd jab reset them automatically if they didn't tech, which would be good for tech chasing on platforms and for tech timing mix-ups.

 

[Ningildo]

Yes, more fox discussion.

We didn't have one of those in, like, three pages.

 

[trash?]

when his presence pops up at least twice in every recent PM top 8, then yeah, people talk about the characters they see often

general design change: fox should just be able to rely less on shine/lasers. especially now that lasers are nerfed, it's clear how big of a deal that was for him, since one could argue mewtwo/fox would have been greatly in fox's favor if he was still able to lasercamp all the time, but because fox needs to be a bit closer on average, mewtwo gets to do work with that beautiful, beautiful tail

do that change mango threw out there with a damageless shine, make his non-uthrow throws and fair actually worthwhile

 

[DrinkingFood]

I was hoping to take a different perspective on it, that of treating him like other highly mobile + neutral dominating characters.

Also @ trash? None of that really address his ability to still end a stock easily even if he fails to capitalize on a stagger. That was my point- ZSS and Diddy use good neutral prowess to set-up staggers to build percent and continue the stagger to secure a kill, and if they fail they have to win neutral again to set up ANOTHER stagger, and then try again to convert that to a kill. If fox does the same thing, he gets to skip the part where he has to convert the second stagger successfully because lolusmash and roflupair. Stumping lasers more doesn't really fix that and nerfing shine doesn't fully address that. Lasers are still good but it feels to me like less characters have problems with them than before.

 

[Strong Badam]

Friendly reminder that lowering Shine's damage makes it worse vs shield and changes timing for on-hit jump canceling it.

 

[trash?]

Friendly reminder that lowering Shine's damage makes it worse vs shield and changes timing for on-hit jump canceling it.

...which would fit entirely in with "decentralize shines", yes?

 

[Bleck]

man, even I'm sick of talking about Fox

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

"Ike is so broken, his moves have to start up really slow"
Looool

 

[PD | Lewd]

"Ike is so broken, his moves have to start up really slow"
Looool

Like two of them Kappa Kappa

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yo so I missed it, what exactly is m2k complaining about, specifically, on ike? Like of the janky things in this game, ike doesn't have that much, and ally was always good. I could see adjustments to his qd attack. Maybe making it smaller and or laggier before removing it completely, but that's an option too. I personally think his dtilt has too early of isa frames as well, but that's nitpicking.

Anyway lol, yeah what was he buttmad about?

 

[GabPR]

Yo so I missed it, what exactly is m2k complaining about, specifically, on ike? Like of the janky things in this game, ike doesn't have that much, and ally was always good. I could see adjustments to his qd attack. Maybe making it smaller and or laggier before removing it completely, but that's an option too. I personally think his dtilt has too early of isa frames as well, but that's nitpicking.

Anyway lol, yeah what was he buttmad about?

Its Gahtzu all over again, but with Ally

 

[eideeiit]

Ike's throw game is a bit dumb, but that wasn't really what messed M2k up.

 

[PlateProp]

I find it funny the way everyone just bashes m2kfor having an opinion. I guess it'll be cool if I call everyone a ****ing moron when they post anything here now

 

[Ripple]

we bash on m2k because he suddenly has an opinion on a character when he loses to them. and everytime, its been "this character is OP"

 

[steelguttey]

not only that he had no opinion on the character but after playing 10 matches with him with 7 different characters he dubs him op