Tier List Speculation

[Chesstiger2612]

They aren't in the video, but I just tested both DI down+ away plus an approx half angle between away and down+away, both required that you dash for exactly 14 frame and JC grab to get the regrab, but technically it was still guaranteed because DJ, float, and nair all couldn't get her out of the grab reach.
BUT it is getting to a point where subtle changes in the DI drastically affect the timing. Like if you think they are DIing away, you dash 12 frames the JC grab, but this makes you whiff if they DI'd down+away, and it's hard to tell. And if you think they DI'd down+away and dash for the full 14 frames, you can get nair'd if they just DI'd away, if they were frame perfect (spacing of DI down+away prevents them from nairing you even though they have time to get the hitbox out).
So given all that, it isn't reasonable to expect that someone should be able to process and perfectly input all that, so realistically, a human (without reading) could probably reliably only manage that up to like 45 or 50 or something where the window would be larger and you'd have overlapping timings for subtly different DIs.

But the guaranteed aerial option still exists then?

 

[DrinkingFood]

On DI away/ down+away/etc? I haven't actually tested that because I was only concerned with regrabs on those DIs. I'm like 2/3rds positive that wouldn't work, but maybe the combination of her jump momentum carry+highly disjointed nair might make it work.

 

[Foo]

I said up and away at 0% Peach can float above your grab range at every % out of dthrow.... It happened to me every time I tried regrab in tourney.

Whatever you did seems super suspect. There's no way a floaty like peach falls lower at 30 than she does at 0.

How do I do that frame by frame thing?

Even if the suspect DI is right, having to read the peaches DI and changing your option on moves with 3-10 frame windows at specific %s against a couple characters is still pretty trash.

 

[DrugsM2]

If sonic does well vs fast fallers which is most of the top tiers and he can slide his JC grab length with a power shield for projectiles why isnt he top tier?

 

[Shokio]

This deserves a double post
@ Foo @ Shokio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=373ANom4M-c&feature=youtu.be

Jesus, those were not the right DI's at all lmao.

How many times do I have to say that up and away is how you DI ZSS dthrow for most characters? Peach can float above your grab range at every % out of dthrow....

I think I might just give up man. That moment when people actually think ZSS's down throw is a chain grab and combo grab......I don't know what to say xD. The only chars she can even remotely chain grab on is Kirby and Jiggs because they're so light that she gets out of her endlag extremely fast, but that's really it.

I would love for everyone in this thread thinking DF's video is real to use ZSS in tourney though and try to chain grab Peaches and Zelda lmaoooo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

rob is fine by me

Sheik players. >=[

Anyway, how much does ZSS gain from having a positional advantage / having opponents offstage? Her great DD + falcon uair + strong spacing moves would lead me to believe that she gets quite a bit.

BTW, just throwing this out there; Bowser gets no guaranteed followups whatsoever from his throws except against [semi-]fastfallers, and I don't really consider it a problem - the stage position gained (as well as the damage) is invaluable. I don't know if that's a valid mindset to apply to ZSS, just pointing out that not every character necessarily needs a hoo-hah.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

So I just finished making a video demonstrating peach being either regrabbed or followed up with an aerial at percents 0, 30, and 65 (not 70 because that is when I said the regrab ends, so I just demonstrated for 65 in the video including for the guaranteed easy no trade aerial follow-up on DI up and away, even though the regrab on DI away might actually barely work at 70). I'll link the vid once it's on my YT. It's really crappily shot with a plain camcorder on my CRT so there are bars going down the screen but if you pay attention you can see the changes in color for hitstun.

Suggestions for the vid name btw? I'm thinking "I Told You So" but that seems a bit immature, so how about "Surprise, DThrow is good"
@ Foo @ Shokio

This took like 2 hours so no I'm not going to demonstrate this on other characters for you. If you can't trust my testing methods after this then you are beyond hope

Ahh, my intuition was thinking of the wrong DI. Indeed up and away can get punished. However, I just tried this with down and away, which was the DI that I was thinking of. You have to be frame perfect, but you can get a regrab at 0%. No regrab options after that %. No followup options outside of regrab at any % (Dash attack whiffs at 0%). Peach is always out of hitstun before she hits the ground, so if she's frame perfect she can nair or double jump and not be forced into the tech situation. Assuming human error and non-optimal DI, you should be getting tech chases off of dthrow, but nothing else if your opponent DI's down and away.

I was getting super confused at first, but then it started making sense. I was thinking of down and away, which is the optimal escape DI for her dthrow, not up and away. I think dthrow still serves its purpose, but it's still quite a ways away from being really good. If they mess up their DI, there are indeed followups, but like I said, there are no followups after the first regrab (You have to be frame perfect, once again) at 0%. I could post a video, but I hope you believe on this one or will test it yourself.

Sheik players. >=[

Anyway, how much does ZSS gain from having a positional advantage / having opponents offstage? Her great DD + falcon uair + strong spacing moves would lead me to believe that she gets quite a bit.

BTW, just throwing this out there; Bowser gets no guaranteed followups whatsoever from his throws except against [semi-]fastfallers, and I don't really consider it a problem - the stage position gained (as well as the damage) is invaluable. I don't know if that's a valid mindset to apply to ZSS, just pointing out that not every character necessarily needs a hoo-hah.

Positional advantage is a pretty big deal to ZSS, imo. There's the obvious "throw them off the stage" positional advantage which fthrow and bthrow do well. Forcing opponents on platforms is super deadly, too. She has uair and nair, which are moves that love to scoop people off of platforms and start a combo. She has the safe tech chase option of up-b. And she can just do the normal waveland regrab thing. Pushing players past the 2/3 portion of the stage is really valuable, too. Especially on a stage like PS2, corner them past the side platform and face backwards. Spam bair and they're trapped in a very scary corner situation. Their mobility options are super limited and you can use the platform to place bairs in all sorts of awkward locations. Throwing them out of center stage is also its own reward, too. She gets the mileage she needs from her throws, for sure.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Sheik players. >=[

Anyway, how much does ZSS gain from having a positional advantage / having opponents offstage? Her great DD + falcon uair + strong spacing moves would lead me to believe that she gets quite a bit.

BTW, just throwing this out there; Bowser gets no guaranteed followups whatsoever from his throws except against [semi-]fastfallers, and I don't really consider it a problem - the stage position gained (as well as the damage) is invaluable. I don't know if that's a valid mindset to apply to ZSS, just pointing out that not every character necessarily needs a hoo-hah.

To be fair, Bowsers forward/back throws throw a lot stronger then ZSS gets. I definitely think it is a valid direction for throws, but other characters would need similar treatment. ZSS' forward and back throws go nowhere. It all depends what you want a throw to do.

 

[Shokio]

If you have kill throws, then that compensates for lack of combo throws. Also, he can actually Up-Throw into Down-B Fair some characters. But even if he didn't have those......he can kill you in 3 hits sooooo yeah lol. And heck, a lot of characters have 2 kinds of throws on-top of postioners (a kill and combo throw, or a combo and tech chase throw, or a tech chase throw and a kill throw).

The only character in the game that does not have a combo or kill option throw is Jiggs.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Also many people forget that a knockdown-type techchase, guaranteed followups and stage-position related positional advantages aren't actually the only advantages you can get.
As example, if you cannot get a grab (grounded) by one frame, it still forces the opponent into a two-option-mixup (spot dodge or any otherwise good option that would get you grabbed). The spot dodge can obviously be predicted. If you have a bigger window, there might already be other options available, making it a multi-option-mixup. They would need many more frames to have all their neutral game options available, and until then I would speak of an advantage.
I'd say the actual advantage you have from frame advantages decreases exponentially with the frame number your opponent is given, and if it is barely not a true combo, there is still some "pressure" left. @ Strong Badam coined the term staggered-hit game in his Ape Academy.

I feel like this is the case with ZSS' throws. Just disregarding any throw that hasn't guaranteed followups or high knockback amounts to force stage-position related positional advantages is bad theorycrafting in my opinion.

 

[DrinkingFood]

???
How is DI in a problem? You can just get an aerial off. Including dair to maximize hitstun so you definitely can't be punished for the aerial (the window for dair is small tho). You have 11 frames of advantage on her in terms of straight hitstun with dthrow at 0%, plus peach's nair takes 3 frames to come out. Assuming peach is frame perfect you have 13 frames in which to hit her without trading. If she's DIing in you don't even have to dash to reach her. Jump is 4 frames, upair is 4 frames (hits above ZSS frame 6 tho) so it's not like it's a hard window. If she DIs anywhere else, she CAN get regrabbed and sometimes also still hit with an aerial, that was ALWAYS the point.
You guys were making the arguments that peach can escape by DIing away, or up and away, and that video disproves those. I also tested down and away and she can still be regrabbed at 65%, even tho it requires frame perfect inputs, but at slightly lower percents it doesn't. Her ONLY option to escape a REGRAB is to DI in, something I stated from the very beginning, yet you wanted to argue lol. And even then the throw is still GOOD because it's a guaranteed follow up.

 

[Hylian]

It kind of blows my mind that people are arguing against frame by frame testing with video evidence to back it up lmao.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So is ZSS's dthrow good yet or do we need to repeat this for every matchup lmao

 

[DMG]

ZSS suks, I tried her like 4 times and she's not Captain Falcon

Buff Fox

 

[Deleted member]

It kind of blows my mind that people are arguing against frame by frame testing with video evidence to back it up lmao.

hey remember in 2003 when people thought ganondorf could be as good as fox you just had to aim your moves better?

oh, no i guess you dont...

/wrists

 

[Hylian]

hey remember in 2003 when people thought ganondorf could be as good as fox you just had to aim your moves better?

oh, no i guess you dont...

/wrists

I do actually, I started going to tournaments in 03.

 

[B.W.]

My favorite thing here is seeing Olimar at the bottom in a tier of his own.

As salty as I am about his changes, he's still viable.

But I'm just gonna keep seeing people out him in trash tier.

 

[DMG]

April Fools: in recognition of how garbage Olimar is, they give him a trash bag texture where his clothing is instead a trash bag with holes for limbs to stick out

 

[trash?]

olimar is broken

not "oh man he's so good" broken, literally broken, as in "sometimes my upb just doesn't work and there's no reason behind it happening" broken

 

[B.W.]

He's got bugs, but his moveset is still solid.

Pikmin don't break apart all the time, they only do it when it matters.

Really though, he still has a lot of the stupid stuff from 3.02, it just doesn't all get started with an incredibly safe, super disjointed U-Smash that starts combos at 0% for free while also killing if you have Purple in line. He also doesn't have a super free chain grab that works on everything anymore.

His U-Air is unchanged, save for the damage Pikmin do, and that's the move that was/is responsible for racking up all the damage.

 

[GabPR]

My favorite thing here is seeing Olimar at the bottom in a tier of his own.

As salty as I am about his changes, he's still viable.

But I'm just gonna keep seeing people out him in trash tier.

In a game where everyone is at least decent, what sets apart olimar amd maybe ic,s from the rest of the cast is that they have bugs that make them inconsistent. They can still be used, they can still do good, heck if the player is good enough they can win tourneys as well. But a character that may randomly kill you because of something thats out of your control vs another character that poses no such inconsistencies will be at a considerable disadvantage.

 

[Deleted member]

olimar is broken

not "oh man he's so good" broken, literally broken, as in "sometimes my upb just doesn't work and there's no reason behind it happening" broken

while we're talking about stupid recoveries, can we give lucario a real edge snap back? both olimar and lucario have recoveries that are way too fickle but otherwise fine

 

[bec]

yes please

 

[Scuba Steve]

Only if you take away that airdodge after up-b business. While I don't think the offensive capabilities of Lucario's up-b need to be changed, I don't think that he should be able to cancel his up-b into an airdodge.

 

[bec]

Only if you take away that airdodge after up-b business. While I don't think the offensive capabilities of Lucario's up-b need to be changed, I don't think that he should be able to cancel his up-b into an airdodge.

taking away his down b was bad enough. he has to be so high above the ledge when he air dodges to grab it, its not even that good imo

never mind that he burns precious charge to do it...

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

but the way [Luigi] dominates some matchups is just unfair. Also his recovery is way too good for 3.5.

Luigi? Dominating matchups? Wut..which ones exactly? His recovery is fine.

I think Zelda is definitely bottom 3-5 now. Way too many unnecessary nerfs. Love jump gone, her ledge grab box reduced causing her to miss the ledge when she shouldn't be. The fact that she can't recover safely and always has her head sticking out for anyone to just aerial as she tries to grab ledge really hurts her. She can't even dins on ledge anymore to stop edgeguards while she's making it back to stage. Her mobility in general is also a lot worse since teledashing is removed for a slower, not as useful telecanceling.
I still find that she has a a small number of even matchups and wins very, very few, but I don't see her doing too well in tournaments.This is just from what I've gathered from playing against some, in my opinon, good Zeldas.

 

[Scuba Steve]

taking away his down b was bad enough. he has to be so high above the ledge when he air dodges to grab it, its not even that good imo

never mind that he burns precious charge to do it...

So are you saying that he could grab the edge with an invincible move before? That doesn't have any place in 3.5 either lol

 

[bec]

So are you saying that he could grab the edge with an invincible move before? That doesn't have any place in 3.5 either lol

what? no. he could never grab out of down b. there's a bunch of frames where there's no ledge grab after it
i literally have no idea where you got that from

 

[TheGravyTrain]

He probably got it from "took away down b comment".

 

[Deleted member]

Ike is...

A CHARACTER THAT ISN'T INCREDIBLY BROKEN AND SHOULDN'T BE COMPLAINED ABOOOOOOOOOOOOOUT

 

[GabPR]

So... Ally just came back from losers in shots fired to 6-1 m2k vs his fox, falco, marth, falcon and mario. Is Ike top tier yet or do we have to wait for M2K's approval?

Edit: NVM HE JUST TWEETED IT, LOL

 

[Soft Serve]

Ike is...

A CHARACTER THAT ISN'T INCREDIBLY BROKEN AND SHOULDN'T BE COMPLAINED ABOOOOOOOOOOOOOUT

I normally dont mind losing but ike in pm is op. Gj to ally tho.

— Jason Zimmerman (@MVG_Mew2King) March 2, 2015

Kappa

 

[trash?]

I will always remind everyone of that time M2K thought ness was s-tier because he didn't know you can mash out of his dair

 

[Strong Badam]

Ike's hella good. All the good PM players have been saying he's good for a long time. But he's not top 5, he's at best ~8th-10th best. About as good as Toon Link.
That said I'm inspired by Ally's gameplay. I took a bunch of notes and want to go back into the lab with Ike for the first time in a long time, and it's a good feeling. Expect good things from my Ike in the coming months :3

 

[Deleted member]

I never actually told strong bad my placing on ike but its also 8-10, where I also put toon link

Strong Bad and I are in sync

 

[Ripple]

how can ike be OP if he loses to DDD.

I don't understand this world

 

[trash?]

I like how this conversation happens every time some generic fox player loses for once in their pitiful lives

we've been trained to think "oh dear that's a problem" the second someone actually goes toe-to-toe with fox in a major

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

post shots fired tierlist:

A tier:
Armada
Ally

B tier
m2k

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

how can fox be OP if he loses to DDD.

I don't understand this world

i dunno

 

[GabPR]

Besides M2K being a bit biased, he just addressed a really important point on how people address tier characters. Most people jump on to a bandwagon of just agreeing to what other people think about tier list and people not thinking for themselves. With that said Sonic is top 8 and you should all acknowledge it. #kappa