Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Fox

I'm actually joking this time around

Yes that was the character Mang0 was playing when Sethlon took two Bo5 sets off him

FFS what happened

 

[Strong Badam]

Okay I'm just watching the IaB 43 videos

How in the hell did Lucky piledrive through Sethlon like that? Sethlon has taken two Bo5 sets off of MANGO. WTF?

Definitely not Sethlons best play, or anywhere near it. Everyone here could tell he was super off.

 

[Frost | Odds]

But but but
Muh throws don't auto combo like the rest of my moveset!
Muh blaster now only forces a defensive mix-up instead of requiring straight avoidance!
Muh longest reaching move can be CC'd if I don't space it well!
Muh multi hits can be SDI'd out of if I don't use them in the right scenario!
Muh recovery is predictable if my opponent reads me!
-ZSS players 2015

*cough*

Okay I'm just watching the IaB 43 videos

How in the hell did Lucky piledrive through Sethlon like that? Sethlon has taken two Bo5 sets off of MANGO. WTF?

As much as it galls me to join the neverending train of Mango johns, I'm pretty sure he consistently sandbags in PM - just doesn't put any effort into learning the MUs or anything. Lucky obviously did at least a tiny bit of homework, and played a few friendlies before the tourney.

EDIT:

Definitely not Sethlons best play, or anywhere near it. Everyone here could tell he was super off.

Or that.

 

[MLGF]

Lucky said in interview that he forced himself, like he was so aggro and unafraid that he beat Sethlon.
Makes enough sense, Sethlon was constantly forced into making bad decisions.

 

[DrinkingFood]

On mobile so I can't address everything but I can address this. @ Foo ZSS can guaranteed tech chase, regrab, or aerial follow-up (depending on DI) every character in the game (except heavy floaties) to moderately high percents using her dthrow. Please actually go back and read the post I made regarding that, I thoroughly tested it and you are just kind of ignoring it in favor of ******** more. It definitely works as intended, unless you think it should be guaranteed tech char every time in which case there are very few throws that do that, like fox/zard's dthrow and generally those have higher endlag and aren't as good outside of platforms.

Also you can't CC side-b unless you are already crouching. Lol if you are testing for CC with a crouching character you should know that you can crouch cancel almost any move in the game like that at 0

 

[PlateProp]

Play as ZSS vs. a Squirtle. It's one of the most awkward-feeling MU's in the entire game lol.

This is pretty much any character vs Squirtle.

Rekd

 

[Foo]

On mobile so I can't address everything but I can address this. @ Foo ZSS can guaranteed tech chase, regrab, or aerial follow-up (depending on DI) every character in the game (except heavy floaties) to moderately high percents using her dthrow. Please actually go back and read the post I made regarding that, I thoroughly tested it and you are just kind of ignoring it in favor of *****ing more. It definitely works as intended, unless you think it should be guaranteed tech char every time in which case there are very few throws that do that, like fox/zard's dthrow and generally those have higher endlag and aren't as good outside of platforms.

Also you can't CC side-b unless you are already crouching. Lol if you are testing for CC with a crouching character you should know that you can crouch cancel almost any move in the game like that at 0

I didn't respond because that goes against all of the testing I have done both in and out of game. It just simply does not lead to those things guaranteed, period. If you read the post I made, you'd know I suggested making it more like kirby or D3 dthrows that do pretty much tech chase at all %s. Also, I am not talking about 0%. This is why I am so ****ing sick of replying to you. You do nothing but respond to points I don't make and invent opinions for me to hold. You have preformed such a strong impression of me, that you don't actually consider anything I say and immediately feed it through your bias filter. (By my testing, basically this is how it works. If you are a certain fall speed and weight, you get tech chase pretty much every time until around 70. If you aren't you don't really get anything past 0%. If you are a weird weight and have slow aerial options, your interpretation is accurate, but the only character I've found like that is ike. An example of the opposite, marth can dj fair you out of downthrow from 0% A lot of characters can also autocancel an aerial out of it. Basically, you can't really set up for a tech chase because you never know when it's going to be a tech chase, unless they are one of those characters.)

I'm not talking about the sour spot being CCable, I'm not talking about it being CCable at 0, I'm talking about a light and floaty character like and game and watch being able to CC until around 180 (gets knocked down, but doesn't move.) The move has some really weird properties that I don't fully understand. If you CC it at low %s, you stay crouching. You cc it at mid %s, you kinda pop into the air a bit then land standing up. If you CC it at high %s, you just fall over. It seems to do this regardless of character.


EDIT:

@ Shokio 's comment below me. That's not TOTALLY true. Dthrow links into fair against down and away DI at high% against a couple floaties lol. But always DI up up and away!!!! But yeah, only aerial follow ups I've gotten against a good player were trades off of upthrow. I've hit dash attack out of dthrow a few times, though.

 

[Shokio]

Just wanna make an interjection about the grab comments:

If you're getting aerial follow-ups and/or regrabs off of her down throw, your opponent is legitimately ******** and should not be playing the game lol. When ZSS grabs you, there's really no reason why you should ever DI in, unless it's a very specific situational position where you have them grabbed on Smashville's platform close to the blastzone or something like that.

Whether you're being grabbed or combo'd, the solution is pretty much to always just DI away, for everything.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Foo all your methods are really bad, then. I test very thoroughly, I probably spent an hour using multiple running and grabbing timings for multiple characters each at 0, and various percents until I could find the extent of regrabs/tech chases for each DI. She can regrab peach on DI away until ~70.
Any character that's not floaty and not fast falling can get into a tech chase if they DI away, or get regrabbed if they don't. Any character that's FFing gets tech chased until high percents unless they DI in, which usually means you can regrab them. And like I said, heavy floaties can DI away and jump out.

Your testing for CCing on side-b is just as bad. Typically when something is "CC'd" the CCing character wasn't actually crouching, they were instead holding down during another animation. That will get you only downward ASDI. Go back to the lab and try CCing side-b with only the CSTICK held down to replicate the effect, then report back.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Can someone just work out a general range of numbers for dthrow frame advantage, instead of arguing from experience and expecting everyone to go along with it?

 

[Foo]

Foo all your methods are really bad, then. I test very thoroughly, I probably spent an hour using multiple running and grabbing timings for multiple characters each at 0, and various percents until I could find the extent of regrabs/tech chases for each DI. She can regrab peach on DI away until ~70.
Any character that's not floaty and not fast falling can get into a tech chase if they DI away, or get regrabbed if they don't. Any character that's FFing gets tech chased until high percents unless they DI in, which usually means you can regrab them. And like I said, heavy floaties can DI away and jump out.

Your testing for CCing on side-b is just as bad. Typically when something is "CC'd" the CCing character wasn't actually crouching, they were instead holding down during another animation. That will get you only downward ASDI. Go back to the lab and try CCing side-b with only the CSTICK held down to replicate the effect, then report back.

You DI UP and away to get out of Zss dthrow. And now you are confirmed for fraud. There is no way you can get regrab on peach consistently, as she can float above your grab range at 0% and can nair you out of a regrab attempt anyway. Best I've gotten off of dthrow was dash attack and upair trades in tourney against peach. And that was against someone who had never played the matchup before.

Also, not my fault you have a weird personal definition of CC
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Crouch_cancel

 

[Shokio]

She can regrab peach on DI away until ~70.

I love you DF, but you can't be doing that c'mon.

 

[Deleted member]

pretty sure we should spend the next 3-4 days talking about how obviously top tier ROB is

and by top tier i mean still not fox

 

[DrinkingFood]

I tested her dthrow in frame advance, if you guys are just feeling it out you're doing it wrong and probably being too slow in practice lol
When I get home I'll try and get video of it somehow

 

[Shokio]

You must be doing it on CPU's, who do not DI correctly/at all. It doesn't work on live opponents who hold away, I promise you lol.

 

[stingers]

is there a community tier list yet?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

is there a community tier list yet?

like lunchable's tierlist is the most "accepted" one but no not really

 

[Shokio]

^That's until everyone sees my tier list:

Top Tier: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Shiek
High Tier: Falcon, Roy
Bottom Tier:............why play anyone else?

Accurate, list is accurate.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

I tested her dthrow in frame advance, if you guys are just feeling it out you're doing it wrong and probably being too slow in practice lol
When I get home I'll try and get video of it somehow

Yo, Mewtwo can djc fair ZSS before regrab by DIing up and away at 0%. Mewtwo's fair comes out frame 5 and Peach's nair comes out on frame 3. There is straight up no way you can get a regrab off of optimal DI, even at 0%. Let alone until 70%. I'll be the first to admit that ZSS's throws aren't absolute garbage, but let's not get ahead of ourselves, lol.

Sources: Playing ZSS against Mewtwo in tourney, general ZSS intuition, have used dthrow 60 thousand times, common sense.

 

[Jolteon]

There is no reason to rely on CPU DI at all with frame advance, you can just use two controllers.

 

[Deleted member]

^That's until everyone sees my tier list:

Top Tier: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Shiek
High Tier: Falcon, Roy
Bottom Tier:............why play anyone else?

Accurate, list is accurate.

can i unlike this?

 

[Player -0]

Okay:
1. How is ZSS' recovery better for vertical compared to 3.02?
2. How does ZSS have OMGWTFBBQ punishes?
3. How does ZSS get the laser out without getting punished by almost any Nair in the game without giving up a ton of space for almost no reward? (SH retreating Nair or Bair beats this no prob if ZSS is approaching with it).
4. More random stuff but I'm too busy playing Dota.

 

[Shokio]

There is no reason to rely on CPU DI at all with frame advance, you can just use two controllers.

I did a huge post about this in the ZSS discussion threads and talked a little about it in the top player thread as well.

@ DrinkingFood It's true, Mewto can keep from being tech'd from her down throw at 0 percent. So literally, against someone who knows what their doing, down throw will actually NEVER put Mewtwo into a tech chase situation.

Zelda can lightning kick ZSS out of an approach starting at about 17%. Mario will get out of hitstun before he hits the ground at around 27% and Nair you.

With Up-throw, just NEVER use it unless:

1. They're at 0%-30% and there's a platform directly above you
2. The character is Fox, Wolf, Falco, or Falcon

Cause outside of those 2 very particular things, the throw is virtually useless. I did the frame advance, and a large portion of characters actually get out of hitstun before ZSS even gets out of the endlag of the throw. Especially against heavier characters like Ganon or ROB.

I'm not one of these guys saying ZSS sucks and all that stuff, but her down and up throws ARE legitimately flawed and I wish we could just accept this and move on from this argument.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I haven't said anything about uthrow lately except that it can be used for platform set-ups, dunno why you're mentioning that.
And I already know and stated that ZSS can't effectively dthrow heavy floaties. I would include mewtwo in that even though he's not QUITE a heavy since he is almost a heavy +extremely floaty

 

[Shokio]

Peach and Zelda ain't floaty heavies doe, they're mid-weight floaties.

Up-Throw part wasn't really directed at you, I was just throwing that in there for knowledge's sake. But I also forgot to mention though that even at low percents, your opponent can DI out of landing on the platform lol. If they just hold away they can just fly past it and miss landing on it. It's a really bad throw.

 

[Foo]

Ok guys, apparently I was wrong about her recovery. Every time I down-b'd off of tether hop in the past I had inputted fast fall because my timing wasn't perfect. However, after some lab time in slo-mo I learned that she actually does have recovery options. If you time the down-b perfectly off of her forced tether hop, you can flipstool people off ledge or just down-b onto stage directly. I imagine it's punishable if they read it, but having that option makes her recovery good. Not gonna say it's OP like, jason, but I'll test it.

ZSS is back in upper mid in my book.

EDIT: I know I proved myself wrong and now feel like an idiot, but I am so happy right now. I was so discouraged that she couldn't recover ever, but now I learned I was so, so, so ****ing wrong lmao. HAHAHAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHAHAHA I'M GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE SO MAD TOMMOROW AHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Okay:
1. How is ZSS' recovery better for vertical compared to 3.02?
2. How does ZSS have OMGWTFBBQ punishes?
3. How does ZSS get the laser out without getting punished by almost any Nair in the game without giving up a ton of space for almost no reward? (SH retreating Nair or Bair beats this no prob if ZSS is approaching with it).
4. More random stuff but I'm too busy playing Dota.

1. ZSS gains more height on her down-b than she did in 3.02. This makes it easier to recover over opponents and recover high. In 3.02, she was essentially shot out sideways, which made her extra hard to combo. But this new trajectory gives her more options on recovery.

2. Off of a clean dtilt or utilt, she has nair and uair. These are the meat and potatoes of her combo game. Her uair links into itself at low %s like Falcon's does and her nair has such low KBG that she can string them together reliably until 110%+. A relatively simple string goes utilt -> utilt -> rising uair -> uair -> nair. Nair doesn't stale and nets you 12% every time you hit it. Uair is super quick and gets you somewhere between 7%-9% iirc. So her low % combo game is just as good as any other combo-oriented character. Mario, Falcon, etc. But what makes her shine is just how easy a time she has combo at that sweet, sweet sweeeeet mid %. Once your opponent gets up to ~40%, nair opens up and you can bounce and push people on different parts of the nair. She has 3 main zones on her nair that can combo different weight classes off of them. Zone 1: "forward facing hitbox in front" can combo semi-fast fallers. Falcon and Roy can just be SHFFL nair'd to infinity because it doesn't stale and has a tiny KBG. They get nair chained offstage (Say you get 3, which is automatically 36%) and then eat a fair. If you're not confident about their SDI abilities, just whiff the first hit and connect only with the 2nd. Now you got an edge guard situation. Ezpz. Floaty characters go a little too high to get comboed off of Zone 1 for too long, so you gotta utilize Zone 2: "forward facing hitbox behind". Bounce them off of the back of your nair. This part of the nair gets so much height that you're comboing floaties. And what's up, Luigi, that nair is intangible, so it's not going to lose to trades from those types of characters. Bounce them off the back of your nair across the stage until they get too high and use your up-b. That rockets them into the ground and you react to the tech option. OR, if you're super lucky and spaced amazingly, they fall right into you and you can get an uair as they get spiked into the ground, extending the combo some more. You even have access to the secret, super situational Zone 3: "REVERSE hitbox behind" which you can use when you run out of stage and want to continue your juggle on your poor opponent. You can even do cheeky Zone 3 chains on hyper floaty characters like Mewtwo and Puff. Just the other day I landed a 3,3,3,3 up-b bair on a puff. That's an ~65% combo ON A PUFF. This is the OMGWTFBBQ. At the mid %, ZSS's combo game is crazy. And she doesn't even need a particular weight to do it. Even spacies will get comboed like crazy if I can somehow struggle to get that first 40% on them.

Example combo on Roy at ~30%.

Shield pressure -> bait shield grab -> utilt to beat it -> utilt since they're confused and won't DI (Then they DI away)-> Zone 1 (They DI away)-> Zone 1 (We're approaching the ledge so they DI in)-> catch them with Zone 2 -> (We're offstage) -> dj Fair.

That's an EASY combo to land on a character like Roy. And it takes them from 30% to what? Like, at least 75%. Probably 90% iono. But ZSS's combo game is so easy and there is so much hitstun on her nair that it's crazy good. Just play around with her nair. Even though it's smaller than it was in 3.02, it's still amazing.

AND THAT'S JUST THE SURFACE. I didn't talk about "Stairway to Heaven" dair chains yet. Or platform cancelled down-b earthquake hitbox shield stabs. Or wavebounce side-b. And those are just combo options. Her punish game offstage is super sick, too. Her offstage divekick denies so much space. It's negatively disjointed, so don't go too ham, but it'll catch any character who has low horizontal drift. There is so much to talk about, but trust me, there is plenty to get OMGWTFBBQ about with ZSS. NAIR IS INTANGIBLE WTF THAT'S OUTRAGEOUS.

3. You don't spam blaster. It's situational. When your opponent is dash dancing you a very large distance away, shoot them and tell them to stop it. Use blaster after raw bairs in order to catch the tech options. She has FULL AERIAL CONTROL when she's shooting the blaster, so you can choose to mixup between heights. Fall slowly and a full jump fully charged blaster will shoot at battlefield height. Fastfall at any time in the middle and you can shoot the blaster at any height underneath that. It's all positional. Yes, opponents can hit you out of the charge, but if you charge it while jumping, you can still keep your positioning ambiguous enough with her aerial drift to where your opponent can't just react and punish. That's the thing to notice: SHE ISN'T STATIONARY WHILE SHOOTING THE BLASTER. So, yeah, it's a 40 frame commitment or whatever, but it's not a hard commitment. You can still fade in and fade out. It's got plenty of uses for stage positioning. It's slow and it'll get shielded more often than not, but it's far less punishable than one would imagine at first glance.

4. But seriously, her combo game is so free. ZSS is so easy to combo with once she gets that first hit confirm. If she had a halfway decent fair, she would be almost almost strictly better than Falcon in my opinion.

 

[Player -0]

1. Did you even play ZSS in 3.02? I'm fairly certain the only thing they did was reduce horizontal momentum (if the changelogs are to be trusted:

2. D-Tilt is super weak, unless you're playing vs. floaties or at least like, 50% then it's not going to work. If they're CC'ing or ASDI'ing down then forget it. The other combos are sure whatever, she pretty much only has jump ins to start combos though, which hurts her a lot. Earthquake hitbox from Down-B can be blocked by angling shield, any good player knows that. It's the same as all the other similar aerials (Falcon's Down B confirmed broke). Dair strings shouldn't work with DI. WD or shield at any point the wavebounce Side-B is useless, it also has a big startup so you won't really get caught by surprise.

3. Why would they be DD'ing from far away lol, it's useless to DD that far away if you can't punish. You have DD'ing SO you can punish, not to practice super left-right bros. She isn't stationary but she has to give up a bunch of stage control to use it and that's only IF she doesn't get punished (people are juggled all the time). She has aerial mobility but no options to escape besides that. Her FF isn't that much faster than her regular fall.

4. First hit confirm: Hard read off of tech chase from grab, Up-Air, Nair, Dair, D-Tilt at much later percents, possibly Side-B but hitting that is eh, blaster hit eh, Up-Tilt.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

1. Did you even play ZSS in 3.02? I'm fairly certain the only thing they did was reduce horizontal momentum (if the changelogs are to be trusted:
View attachment 40670

2. D-Tilt is super weak, unless you're playing vs. floaties or at least like, 50% then it's not going to work. If they're CC'ing or ASDI'ing down then forget it. The other combos are sure whatever, she pretty much only has jump ins to start combos though, which hurts her a lot. Earthquake hitbox from Down-B can be blocked by angling shield, any good player knows that. It's the same as all the other similar aerials (Falcon's Down B confirmed broke). Dair strings shouldn't work with DI. WD or shield at any point the wavebounce Side-B is useless, it also has a big startup so you won't really get caught by surprise.

3. Why would they be DD'ing from far away lol, it's useless to DD that far away if you can't punish. You have DD'ing SO you can punish, not to practice super left-right bros. She isn't stationary but she has to give up a bunch of stage control to use it and that's only IF she doesn't get punished (people are juggled all the time). She has aerial mobility but no options to escape besides that. Her FF isn't that much faster than her regular fall.

4. First hit confirm: Hard read off of tech chase from grab, Up-Air, Nair, Dair, D-Tilt at much later percents, possibly Side-B but hitting that is eh, blaster hit eh, Up-Tilt.

My b on down-b, then. I guess since ZSS was never really forced to mix-up high in 3.02 I never used that as an option. Whatevz.

And dtilt can be used to punished whiffed attacks. Throwing it out in neutral willy-nilly is gonna get you CC'd, sure, but it can still start things and should be used as such. And they're not gonna CC every dtilt even though they theoretically could. All options have counterplay if your opponent has the reaction for it. Many characters don't have too many options that are air-tight or guaranteed. Neutral is just a matter of mixing up and throwing out all sorts of different options. No one is going to perfectly react to every wavebounce forward-b or platform cancel. Even though they technically could, they're gonna mess up because it's so much information to process. You could argue that how "unsafe" these options are invalidates their use, but I still find value in it. Even if they aren't guaranteed, it's still something to think about. Same thing applies to blaster. There's utility there. And people can technically react to it every time, but I don't think I've ever gone through a set where my opponent was about to perfectly react and sheild/hitbox through all of my blasters. That's just human error. And it's enough to justify using the option. People are dumb. Matches and sets last long enough that there will be moments where people do dumb things or press too many buttons or don't react to things perfectly. That's just my opinion.

But if you don't want to use any of those options, then that's fine. They have counterplay, yeah. I'm not going to argue that fact or anything.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So I just finished making a video demonstrating peach being either regrabbed or followed up with an aerial at percents 0, 30, and 65 (not 70 because that is when I said the regrab ends, so I just demonstrated for 65 in the video including for the guaranteed easy no trade aerial follow-up on DI up and away, even though the regrab on DI away might actually barely work at 70). I'll link the vid once it's on my YT. It's really crappily shot with a plain camcorder on my CRT so there are bars going down the screen but if you pay attention you can see the changes in color for hitstun.

Suggestions for the vid name btw? I'm thinking "I Told You So" but that seems a bit immature, so how about "Surprise, DThrow is good"
@ Foo @ Shokio

This took like 2 hours so no I'm not going to demonstrate this on other characters for you. If you can't trust my testing methods after this then you are beyond hope

 

[DrinkingFood]

This deserves a double post
@ Foo @ Shokio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=373ANom4M-c&feature=youtu.be

 

[Hylian]

Good **** drinkingfood . Debug da bess.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I did it for you Hylian
Based Magus (?) for debug tho

 

[Deleted member]

can you autism out sheiks entire CG range for me vs the entire cast?

because lazy

 

[DrinkingFood]

Lmao no but I could do a particular character, like one you're having issues with or something
In fact i heard u don't like rob

 

[Deleted member]

rob is fine by me, more like everyone i talk to hates rob

personally i dislike fox/roy but 1 neither of them are probably ever going to be balanced correctly for political reasons and 2 those MUs arent likely to change in any meaningful capacity with minor knowledge gains anyway

 

[DMG]

This deserves a double post
@ Foo @ Shokio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=373ANom4M-c&feature=youtu.be

I didn't watch entire video, but did you cover the two away mini-angle directions as well? The one below horizontal and above diagonal-down on paper sounds like it would possibly be good

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well I'm gonna go to bed because lol5am but here's what I got for sheik's dthrow on ROB
I didn't test optimal DI because **** trying to do 28° below horizontal on a GCC lol, instead I did down and away which is close to optimal and probably the best anyone will be able to do on reaction to getting grabbed
So for down and away on dthrow at 0, you have a 4 frame window after a buffered dash to boost grab ROB (he hits the ground after this). If they try to jump out it's 5 frames, more of they try to aerial out. At 100% this becomes a one frame window, you must buffer a dash, dash 10 frames, then perfect boost grab, otherwise he can jump out. I imagine inbetween those numbers the window decreases linearly.
If ROB doesn't DI you can JC grab to CG him at no higher than 25%. This window is also very small since at 0 you only have 11 frame advantage and at 25 you have 13, and his higher position with no DI means as soon as he starts his jump animation he's outta there. So it's like 1-3 frame window depending on percent.
ROB can escape the dthrow CG altogether by DIing in, at 0 he can jump out. You can just ftilt him here but I haven't checked to see if you can get anything off it at such a low percent.
Using these you can probs extrapolate approx numbers for half DIs and such, which probably wouldn't be needed if you were to take this a step further to find overlapping percents+follow-ups to help avoid errors due to inconsistency in-game (I usually try to do this, anyway).

 

[Chesstiger2612]

can you autism out sheiks entire CG range for me vs the entire cast?

because lazy

One should write AI that tests percentages on its own. I always want to do it because I love the micro-metagame, but it can be so boring :/
PMDT when?

 

[DrinkingFood]

I didn't watch entire video, but did you cover the two away mini-angle directions as well? The one below horizontal and above diagonal-down on paper sounds like it would possibly be good

They aren't in the video, but I just tested both DI down+ away plus an approx half angle between away and down+away, both required that you dash for exactly 14 frame and JC grab to get the regrab, but technically it was still guaranteed because DJ, float, and nair all couldn't get her out of the grab reach.
BUT it is getting to a point where subtle changes in the DI drastically affect the timing. Like if you think they are DIing away, you dash 12 frames the JC grab, but this makes you whiff if they DI'd down+away, and it's hard to tell. And if you think they DI'd down+away and dash for the full 14 frames, you can get nair'd if they just DI'd away, if they were frame perfect (spacing of DI down+away prevents them from nairing you even though they have time to get the hitbox out).
So given all that, it isn't reasonable to expect that someone should be able to process and perfectly input all that, so realistically, a human (without reading) could probably reliably only manage that up to like 45 or 50 or something where the window would be larger and you'd have overlapping timings for subtly different DIs.