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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Last edited:
Warzenschwein
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Messages
- 331
is squirtleboy mc squirtsquirt high tier yet
~Dad~
part time gay dad
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
The Squirtle Google hangout appears to be pretty concerned that Ganon might be too good for casual play.
_Chrome
Smash Ace
Ultimate Sneeze
Smash Apprentice
Game&Watch's down tilt is dumb
D
Deleted member
Guest
i'll see your wager and raise you a melee ICs vs roy on FD
i blame ICs for having 90% degenerate MUs
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
I read that thinking you meant ICs would lose to Roy, until I realized you were talking about the Melee iteration of both characters. I think they only have 1 or 2 MUs in PM that are really one-sided either way, but it's hard to tell when they have a bug that turns each MU in favor of the opponent.
This Luigi talk is funny. I mean really, it's totally fair to ask a character to give up taunts for better recovery. I would give up Captain Falcon taunts to become Captain Samus and steal her tether. It pains me not to see your moves, but I'm trying to live bro
Foo
Smash Lord
That's why I have grab on r and taunt on z
Agreed. I think one of the dumbest things about it is that the long thin manhole has a single circle around it for the hitbox, and it stretches around the whole thing, making the hitbox as tall as it is wide >.> You really should be able to just short hop over it.
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
You know what else dump about it? It looks like its more active then it is. The animation plays longer then the hitboxes are active...
Foo
Smash Lord
Pretty much all of game and watches moves are like that. At the end of his dash attack, for instance, all the frames of lag on it look exactly like the rest of the animation. It doesn't effect me to much since I played against the character so much, but he is a completely pain and the ass to figure out because his animations are more like hints than displays. Like, I can clearly see zss fsmash hits behind her, but there is no indication that game and watch ftilt hits slightly behind him, or that his nair hits a circle around him, or that his (insert any move here) does (insert jank bull**** here). I really wish they'd clean up his hitboxes and animations. I've said it before, but I really think game and watch is the single most broken character in the game, just because his hitboxes and animations are like fifth cousins 6 times removed, not balance wise. There is no reason you should have to study his hitboxes in debug mode just to play against him.
For instance, when his dash attack hitbox ends, he should tilt upwards like he's coming to a stop. His parachute should buffed slightly in some regard, but not cover everything around him, his downtilt should have three circles instead of one and should stop moving when the hitbox goes away etc.
*Fist shakes for 12 extra frames even after hitbox has already disappeared*
dat melee link nair hitbox
robosteven
Smash Lord
Frame 1 up-b.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Good thing that got changed "for polish"
Must have ran out of polish.
robosteven
Smash Lord
Ripple please
D
Deleted member
Guest
Actually, almost everything about G&W is dumb. It doesn't make any sense why he didn't get nerfed like every other character. At my local weekly, G&W players who never made Top 8 in 3.0 tourneys are now frequently getting into those places.
I could go on a multi-paragraph rant about how stupid 3.5 G&W is but I would just be repeating what everyone already knows.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Honestly, in order for character diversity, it almost have to have dumb things sometimes. Otherwise you characters who are meh or an all a round character. Those are great, but that's not diversity if that's all you have. I get there have been broken moves/characters so we try and inform people when we smell a hint, but I feel its getting excessive and whiny. At some point you have to accept that a solid character is going to have solid moves that are frustrating to deal with. Again, it doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards getting rid of too good of moves, but you also just need to stop letting the pmdt hold your hand and remove the things that are frustrating. /rant
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
EDIT: accounted for steelguttey's Olimar opinion (which is probably more informed than mine tbh) and adjusted Sonic because Sonic mains seem to think he does well in the MU, heh.
Alright, just did a 'brief' (2+ hours -_-) runthrough of my previous matchup chart with the Bowser skype chat, incorporated opinions from there, as well as feedback from other players (notably Lunchables). This now pretty much reflects our consensus on most of Bowser's MUs -- doesn't mean it's totally accurate, but it's probably much better/more complete than anything else to date:
http://pastebin.com/98c8a7ej
It happened to work out to a pretty nice bell curve, centered around 40:60 matchups, opponent's favor - though it looks like Bowser's still both pretty polarized (due to the relatively wide spread) and pretty bad (due to the negative skew)
(-6) 20:80 || (patched)ICs?
(-5) 25:75 || Yoshi, Kirby
(-4) 30:70 || ROB, Wario, GnW, Marth, Sheik
(-3) 35:65 || Ganon, CF, Fox, Mario, Snake, M2, Lucario
(-2) 40:60 || Wolf, Ike, Roy, Tink, DDD, ZSS, Diddy, Lucas, Olimar
(-1) 45:55 || Luigi, Ivy, Ness, Zelda, DK, Samus, MK
(+0) 50:50 || Charizard, Bowz, Puff, Link, Peach
(+1) 55:45 || Squirtman, Falco, Pikachu, Sonic
(+2) 60:40 || Pit
(+3) 65:35 ||
(+4) 70:30 ||
(+5) 75:25 ||
(+6) 80:20 ||
#s of matchups in each category:
(-6) 20:80 .|| 1
(-5) 25:75 .|| 22
(-4) 30:70 .|| 55555
(-3) 35:65 .|| 7777777
(-2) 40:60 .|| 999999999
(-1) 45:55 .|| 7777777
(+0) 50:50 || 55555 -------- Even
(+1) 55:45 || 4444
(+2) 60:40 || 1
(+3) 65:35 || 0
(+4) 70:30 || 0
(+5) 75:25 || 0
(+6) 80:20 || 0
Obviously, there's likely some bias because we all play Bowser, but a lot of my votes were more optimistic than my instincts - and several players seemed a lot more optimistic about some matchups (notably Lucas, Wario, and Ganon) than myself.
Alright, just did a 'brief' (2+ hours -_-) runthrough of my previous matchup chart with the Bowser skype chat, incorporated opinions from there, as well as feedback from other players (notably Lunchables). This now pretty much reflects our consensus on most of Bowser's MUs -- doesn't mean it's totally accurate, but it's probably much better/more complete than anything else to date:
http://pastebin.com/98c8a7ej
It happened to work out to a pretty nice bell curve, centered around 40:60 matchups, opponent's favor - though it looks like Bowser's still both pretty polarized (due to the relatively wide spread) and pretty bad (due to the negative skew)
(-6) 20:80 || (patched)ICs?
(-5) 25:75 || Yoshi, Kirby
(-4) 30:70 || ROB, Wario, GnW, Marth, Sheik
(-3) 35:65 || Ganon, CF, Fox, Mario, Snake, M2, Lucario
(-2) 40:60 || Wolf, Ike, Roy, Tink, DDD, ZSS, Diddy, Lucas, Olimar
(-1) 45:55 || Luigi, Ivy, Ness, Zelda, DK, Samus, MK
(+0) 50:50 || Charizard, Bowz, Puff, Link, Peach
(+1) 55:45 || Squirtman, Falco, Pikachu, Sonic
(+2) 60:40 || Pit
(+3) 65:35 ||
(+4) 70:30 ||
(+5) 75:25 ||
(+6) 80:20 ||
#s of matchups in each category:
(-6) 20:80 .|| 1
(-5) 25:75 .|| 22
(-4) 30:70 .|| 55555
(-3) 35:65 .|| 7777777
(-2) 40:60 .|| 999999999
(-1) 45:55 .|| 7777777
(+0) 50:50 || 55555 -------- Even
(+1) 55:45 || 4444
(+2) 60:40 || 1
(+3) 65:35 || 0
(+4) 70:30 || 0
(+5) 75:25 || 0
(+6) 80:20 || 0
Obviously, there's likely some bias because we all play Bowser, but a lot of my votes were more optimistic than my instincts - and several players seemed a lot more optimistic about some matchups (notably Lucas, Wario, and Ganon) than myself.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
You mean that part where all I did was tell you to move tink and roy to -2 instead of -1?
Damn so much feedback, I'm a bowser god
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
yeah manYou mean that part where all I did was tell you to move tink and roy to -2 instead of -1?
Damn so much feedback, I'm a bowser god
you literally made this whole thing happen
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Maybe. I still feel like even once the Bowser meta advances, we'll have underrated a lot of these chars. Ness, ZSS, D3, Lucas, Zard, maybe others are all likely harder than represented here. Also notable that pretty much every highly popular char is (as far as we can tell so far) 40:60 or worse for Bowser.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
Man GnW is problematic, but Ganon's downthrow is fine.
This must be what nirvana feels like.
GnW will stop being as good when people DI.
This must be what nirvana feels like.
GnW will stop being as good when people DI.
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PootisKonga
Smash Ace
*ahem* /s
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Nah, Ganon's Dthrow is pretty stupid. GnW is has some pretty stupid moves as well with how deceptive they are. But I tend not to ***** about either because Melee Shines still exist and all my ******** goes towards that move.
Learn this one secret that one smash player found to beat GaW.
The trick GaW players don't want you to know.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Ganon's Up-B OoS is amazing, nuff said. What is it, like, 14% and kills ~140?
don't make me slap you, boy. it's 18% (i almost capslock'd the numbers like a scrub, btw).
don't know how well it kills, but i do know that if you miss you're going to have the saddest time ever. it's a "throw this out once a set" sort of oos option, to keep people honest.
his dthrow is dumb, so is his nair. dthrow is sliiiightly less problematic because it's attached to ganon, so there's a lack of range on the grab and a lack of speed to make setups for the grab easier. i'd be fine with nerfing the dthrow so that it only gives you followups, but not grabs, in exchange for a decent standing grab, but how to make that happen is tricky, because ganon doesn't move too quickly, so you can't just make it throw super further out or release super higher, or else it becomes a nigh worthless throw for him. i guess maybe make it some sort of mixup with bthrow, shiek style? i dunno, man...
JOE!
Smash Hero
Make it so ganon somehow magics the Dthrow and he is in the air too? Prevents another actual grab (guarenteed at least), but allows for an aerial or a side B or something
see, i like how it's basically a guranteed aerial for ganon once you get past chain range, but at the same time i kind of... don't? like, with his overall kit, it shouldn't be so bad (slower, lower grab range, no projectile to setup a shield grab scenario, etc...) but then if he hits you with a fair or a bair, you're taking 16 or 17% and are going to be in a really bad place. like, maybe that's just fine (other characters have setup throws, too) but it feels just a step away from really dumb in general (not just on ganon).
Ganon Dthrow is hype. One of the few things that keeps him feeling like an actually good character.
Balance wise, you can't do much to truly fix Ganon until you buff or change attributes that make his fundamentals (across the board) different. Slow mobility, Dark Overlord of Meatheads who don't compromise nonchalant grabbing poses. I would give him a nerfed Dthrow, but like a crazy good JC grab distance. Falcon, Sonic, whoever slides real far give this man that.
Balancing slow guy with crazy grab potential, big damage, and almost sub-par everything else is hard. Make him run faster and now he's basically Captain Falcon, who is also not easy to balance
Balance wise, you can't do much to truly fix Ganon until you buff or change attributes that make his fundamentals (across the board) different. Slow mobility, Dark Overlord of Meatheads who don't compromise nonchalant grabbing poses. I would give him a nerfed Dthrow, but like a crazy good JC grab distance. Falcon, Sonic, whoever slides real far give this man that.
Balancing slow guy with crazy grab potential, big damage, and almost sub-par everything else is hard. Make him run faster and now he's basically Captain Falcon, who is also not easy to balance
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Player -0
Smash Hero
Fixed so you caps'ed it.
I thought it was 18% and almost posted it saying 18% but I wasn't 100% (hehe) sure that I was right. So I decided to make the numbers instead of bigger because of idk.
Almost 20% from one move is pretty amazing, especially when you give them 3 seconds to DI so they don't die (still kills earlier than Marth).
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Would be p cool if he jumped up while swinging them around from behind him and throwing them at the ground, with the release point being at the actual bounce (akin to snake's b/fthrows) with its current trajectory + similar knockback. Ganon ends up in the air and they end up right in front of him, for improved access to aerial normal/aerial special follow-ups but reduced access to regrabs/grounded normal follow-ups. You could use that design to force him to utilize aerial follow-ups mostly without changing anything else about the move. And then you can finally buff his grab range to not be ass.
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