Tier List Speculation

[Bleck]

I would also like to get on the "how is Luigi's recovery so good when their whole schtick with 3.5 was to nerf recoveries" train

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I mean that doesn't prove it's bad, it just proves the guy is a dingus for pineappling himself. I mean he almost made it back after that so that's saying something.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I would also like to get on the "how is Luigi's recovery so good when their whole schtick with 3.5 was to nerf recoveries" train

Nerfing recoveries was hardly the whole point of 3.5, and given that Luigi's not exactly a top tier candidate, it was a pretty easy oversight.

I really wish there was a good local Luigi so I could figure out how to properly edgeguard him. Played one or two dozen friendlies with a good L in edmonton a month or so ago, and keeping him offstage was waaaaaaaaaaay harder than I'd previously imagined, even as Bowser. IMO his side b ledge grab sweetspot is much too far above his head. Seriously, check it out in Debug mode, iirc it's more than a full Luigi-length over him.

 

[Bleck]

Nerfing recoveries was hardly the whole point of 3.5

yeah there were also some fox buffs in there

 

[N0PE]

Nerfing recoveries was hardly the whole point of 3.5, and given that Luigi's not exactly a top tier candidate, it was a pretty easy oversight.

I really wish there was a good local Luigi so I could figure out how to properly edgeguard him. Played one or two dozen friendlies with a good L in edmonton a month or so ago, and keeping him offstage was waaaaaaaaaaay harder than I'd previously imagined, even as Bowser. IMO his side b ledge grab sweetspot is much too far above his head. Seriously, check it out in Debug mode, iirc it's more than a full Luigi-length over him.

He can sweetspot from Side+B? I hope my Luigi main friend doesn't learn this haha

 

[Psyant]

I'm not sure if it's that bad, but Bowser is really completely not threatened by Pikachu in much the same way that he's not threatened by Sonic. Pikachu's DD isn't quite good enough to get him out of the danger zone, ANYTHING he does out of short hop can and will get stuffed by Bowser's dash attack, and Bowser's probably the only character in the game that can actually edgeguard Pikachu pretty reliably.

I could, of course, be wrong about that one - maybe I'd change my tune if I had to spend an afternoon playing against Axe, but I doubt it - considering iirc he goes Marth against bowser.

From my experience with Bowser Vs Pikachu, I felt like Bowser was the one that had little options to force anything to happen in his favor. Pikachu never really has to trade hits against Bowser or run into an armored move, and can take his time exploiting Bowser's laggy openings. Unlike Sonic he can attack from a distance with jolt, which helps force Bowser into doing more than sitting around waiting for an approach. If jolts are constantly shielded Pikachu can run behind one as a mix up, or QAC waveland forward into grab, which is harder to react to.

Bowser getting grabbed (and I really don't think Pikachu has a hard time getting grabs against him at all) is especially awful in this MU as he gets kinda destroyed by Pikachu's forward throw chaingrab, which deals heavy damage and most likely takes him to the ledge, at which point he gets hit with a finishing dthrow > usmash/aerial for good measure. Either way getting grabbed makes him eat a lot of guaranteed damage and get put in a really bad place.

Bowser's weight doesn't really do him much good here either because he still dies early to usmash, especially being such a big target for thunder kills off the top. Assuming he doesn't get gimped first.

I could see it being bad for Pika on Yoshi's Story. Some other small stages too, but not on most stages. I think it really depends on how the Pikachu plays to be fair; if he rushed in all aggro he'd get destroyed for sure. But assuming patient play and a focus on thunderjolts, grabbing and relatively safe poking and DD game I think Pikachu probably has the advantage. He has to commit less, and the reward he gets off a single grab on Bowser is especially disgusting.

 

[Foo]

The down+B is quite good...
until this happens: http://gfycat.com/WideAliveArcherfish

Do I have to hunt down a gif of a 3.02 lucas getting dunked, or can you just accept that this proves nothing? Yeah, you can ledgeguard luigi. Especially when he gets ouplayed and misses a sweetspot twice back to back

I'm not saying his recovery is amazing anyway, just that it's really solid and nothing like most people say it is.

 

[Sethlon]

@ Sethlon good explanation, i can agree with all of that.

Uh...I was totally ready to come in here and banty more words and be salty when the discussion devolved. Now I'm not sure what to say lol. Have a great day, I guess

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Wish all discussions on here went as smoothly as that.

 

[Beorn]

I would also like to get on the "how is Luigi's recovery so good when their whole schtick with 3.5 was to nerf recoveries" train

It's not just Luigi dude. Like why can G&W jump out of his up-b? Why can diddy side-b AND THEN up-B? Why can snake recover forever until he is killed outright? Why does Warios up-b first hit have SO much knockback? Marios recovery is still amazing. Captain falcon has kept his recovery buffs that he really shouldn't have in this new game that is 3.5. Why do the spaci/ I'm sorry just fox and falco have basically NO landing lag on up-b? They should not get this free pass. Pikachu's recovery was deemed to have too little lag. Why is this still a thing?

Then stuff like squirtle, link, sonic, pikachu, ivy ect.. happened. They were acutally nerfed to a reasonable degree. I would prefer everyone to have their recoverys nerfed as hard as these characters were, than what happened.

I'm sorry,
I've been wanting to say this for a while. The salt is pretty real.

 

[Frost | Odds]

This is goddamn hilarious: the only MUs in my chart that anyone's argued with so far, have been the ones that I think are good for Bowser. And yet I keep getting flak for 'underrating' him. >=[

(That said, in the chart I've gone against my instincts on a few, and rated them fairly optimistically where I think they might actually be even more terrible).

Disregarding Bowser for now, though, how's everyone feel about Ivysaur? There's been a lot of salt by Ivy mains lately, and I can't really figure out if it's justified - to me, seems like it somewhat might be. She still seems alright overall, but goddamn she has a pretty rough life in some matchups.

 

[EclipseKirby]

Luigi's recovery is certainly better than what often hear around her, mainly in tha with good double jump management and DI he has plenty of chances to sneak his way back on stage. However, with how long he's stuck in any of his options, nearly everything he has should be swatted away should you be ready for it. Ledgegrab -> invincible ledgedrop aerial will deal with any missile sweetspot attempts. Should he go really low, waiting for his tornado and going for the same batters that option as well. Finding the timing for this is the tricky part in my experience, especially since he could just jump. He definitely has the options to mix you up, but with good ledge play it's hard for him.

That said, if you swat him away, he probably can still recover just fine. A number of times. That part is frustrating yes.

 

[supascoot]

It's not just Luigi dude. Like why can G&W jump out of his up-b? Why can diddy side-b AND THEN up-B? Why can snake recover forever until he is killed outright? Why does Warios up-b first hit have SO much knockback? Marios recovery is still amazing. Captain falcon has kept his recovery buffs that he really shouldn't have in this new game that is 3.5. Why do the spaci/ I'm sorry just fox and falco have basically NO landing lag on up-b? They should not get this free pass. Pikachu's recovery was deemed to have too little lag. Why is this still a thing?

Then stuff like squirtle, link, sonic, pikachu, ivy ect.. happened. They were acutally nerfed to a reasonable degree. I would prefer everyone to have their recoverys nerfed as hard as these characters were, than what happened.

I'm sorry,
I've been wanting to say this for a while. The salt is pretty real.

"why do characters have good recovery in this game, everyone should have the same ****ty recovery, and recovery should in no way be apart of a characters design. I am silly"

Really though, recoveries are in a pretty good spot in term of their power. Sure, some characters get it far better, but thats the point. If wario didn't have crazy upb hitboxes then his recovery would be pretty garbage. If pika didn't have QA, then pika wouldn't be able to gimp as well. Characters have different strengths and weaknesses in terms of recovery, just because some are "better" than others doesn't mean there isn't some way they are balanced out, either offstage or on

 

[steelguttey]

jesus christ

it doesnt matter how far your recovery goes

if you have tiny ass hitboxes and no armor while youre doing it youre gonna lose a stock against any competent player

EDIT: also its linear. you can mix it up alot, but its always going to end the same

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Beorn wasn't talking about the size of the hitboxes on up b, he was talking about the knockback on the initial hit. Wario certainty doesn't need it. His up b is good enough without it, he also has fart, and a side b. All the first hit does is cause weird randy stage spikes and other shenanigans.

 

[Binary Clone]

"why do characters have good recovery in this game, everyone should have the same ****ty recovery, and recovery should in no way be apart of a characters design. I am silly"

Really though, recoveries are in a pretty good spot in term of their power. Sure, some characters get it far better, but thats the point. If wario didn't have crazy upb hitboxes then his recovery would be pretty garbage. If pika didn't have QA, then pika wouldn't be able to gimp as well. Characters have different strengths and weaknesses in terms of recovery, just because some are "better" than others doesn't mean there isn't some way they are balanced out, either offstage or on

We know.

But the point is also that there is such a thing as a recovery that is too good and that is the object of this discussion. Fox has a recovery infinitely better than, say, Roy, yet still has a neutral game and combo game that are just as good if not better. It's easy to pick on Fox, though, obviously. But really, why should he have 4 frames of landing lag for landing onstage with a move you can angle in any direction while Roy's has landing lag of over 30 frames, alongside others like Marth and C. Falcon etc? With Falco it's more acceptable since the distance he gets is so small, but Fox seems like he should at least be punishable for landing onstage.

Though I'd argue that Snake's recovery is pretty acceptable in that his it is also incredibly slow and predictable, and to make it "infinite" you have to continually damage yourself.

Disregarding Bowser for now, though, how's everyone feel about Ivysaur? There's been a lot of salt by Ivy mains lately, and I can't really figure out if it's justified - to me, seems like it somewhat might be. She still seems alright overall, but goddamn she has a pretty rough life in some matchups.

I'm not totally sure how to feel about it. The tether nerfs hit her really hard, obviously, but she does have a really fantastic stall in dair, and her tether still goes very far. Tether cancel retether shenanigans mean that the punish isn't actually totally free, because you can mixup fairly effectively in your efforts to grab ledge.

Even then, though, she has a really fantastic edgeguarding presence that I feel like gets somehow overlooked a lot. Her bair is massive with good knockback and a good angle for what it needs to do. You can basically play Ivy as a Puff with less jumps and get surprisingly far. Obviously you shouldn't actually do that, but it's a really good tool. For example, if you RAR off of one of the battlefield platforms, you can do two bairs and scrape the blastzone with the 2nd and still easily recover with a dair stall and tether. I mean, you can do that off of the stage, not even from the platform, really.

Here, I even whipped up a Gfy for no reason:

It's not too hard to go even a little farther than that, but I'm lazy.

 

[Beorn]

Beorn wasn't talking about the size of the hitboxes on up b, he was talking about the knockback on the initial hit. Wario certainty doesn't need it. His up b is good enough without it, he also has fart, and a side b. All the first hit does is cause weird randy stage spikes and other shenanigans.

This.

and I'm not talking about some characters having better recoverys than others. I was pointing out janky design in certain recoverys. Warios recovery is fine. It's not bad, but its not good. It is a well designed recovery that requires thought, sacrifice, and good placement. The initial hitbox on his recovery is super janky and hits extremely hard, causing stupid stuff to happen that shouldn't.

"why do (some) characters have good recovery in this game,(most) everyone should have (similarly) the same ****ty recovery, and (janky) recovery should in no way be apart of (this games) a characters design. I am silly "

Warios recovery is not linear. He has many options and mixups.

 

[Deleted member]

Uh...I was totally ready to come in here and banty more words and be salty when the discussion devolved. Now I'm not sure what to say lol. Have a great day, I guess

i always have and always will respect good insight and intellect, you earned that knowledge in your post with years of hard work and testing, and i have too so it makes total sense to me. welcome to the big boys club i guess.

 

[Foo]

jesus christ

it doesnt matter how far your recovery goes

if you have tiny *** hitboxes and no armor while youre doing it youre gonna lose a stock against any competent player

EDIT: also its linear. you can mix it up alot, but its always going to end the same

Are you talking about luigi's recovery? Also, what does that edit even mean? "also its linear. you can mix it up alot, but its always going to end the same" You say it's linear, then immediately say he can mix it up a lot... Always going to end up in the same place? Yeah, if only he were more like other characters that could recover by going to a different stage? Having to try and go for stage makes him so unlike every other smash character

Anyway, going by that logic, let's list some of the 3.0 characters with the worst recoveries.

1. Mewtwo. I mean, what were they thinking? His recovery didn't have hitboxes OR armor? Free stock every time he went off stage smh 0/10
2. ZSS. One tiny hitbox above her head while up-b boosting and no armor? She may as well not have been even to tether ledge 1/10. Also, it was very linear. Sure, she had many different recovery options and mixups but I have no idea what the word linear means.
3. Ivysaur. Another character with no armor and her only hitbox is below her?! uh, pmdt, what's that going to help with?!? 1.5/10

(I could keep going but you get the point... alright one more)

Best: Captain Falcon Now here's a character with amazing recovery. It doesn't go very far, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is that the up-b hitbox is big AND it gets grab armor! HOLY ****! 11/10

(I couldn't find any characters that had armor on recovery except for falcon, ganon, and yoshi lmao)

@ Beorn I really don't think ivy recovery was nerfed to a reasonable degree at all... It basically comes down to "if you can recovery without using tether, that's a stock!" Up-b tethers were overnerfed pretty hard. Z-tethers were the problem in 3.02, not up-b ones.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Uh...I was totally ready to ... be salty [about something other than toon link]

Not sure if I buy it, dude. From what I've seen, your Chill Factor is off the charts.

@ Binary Clone holy crap, I had no idea she could still go that far. Anyone know how well Ivy does against ROB, D3, Fox, Marth, Wario, Diddy?

 

[Deleted member]

Additionally, I think its a GRAVE overstatement that dtilt is generally a conversion off of dash dancing. A large number of my dtilt conversions are off of things wavedash in -> dtilt, things like reading a spotdodge, or off of a tech chase (where dtilt is most often the strongest punish). Saying that DIing dtilt away is unreasonable because its usually off of DDing mirrors is handwaving away like 75% of the situations where I actually land dtilts.

Oh uhh...

All I do is spam DD D tilt LOOOOOOOOOOOOL


Edit: Oh and I'd like to remind you all that rob is actually insane and more people need to play him before they nerf him

 

[Sethlon]

You also don't use Roy against the characters that you can't just spam dash dance dtilt against =P

 

[Binary Clone]

@ Binary Clone holy crap, I had no idea she could still go that far. Anyone know how well Ivy does against ROB, D3, Fox, Marth, Wario, Diddy?

Exactly! I'm no Ivy player, but I feel like her offstage range is pretty underutilized. The fact that anyone is surprised by that kind of range means that I don't think enough people are using is as effectively as they could. The opportunity for using a disjoint that far offstage is pretty powerful, I would think.

I feel like her MU with Marth is pretty good, because he doesn't really outspace her as well as he's used to in being able to use his disjoints, and her grab range outdoes him, plus having decent aerial shield pressure against him, while he has relatively few good OoS options. That together with her edgeguarding capabilities would make it tough for him to get back, while edgeguarding against Ivy is tougher for him, since Ivy can tether from low enough to avoid dairs. And she has a pretty decent projectile, and Marth tends to struggle with that, especially since Ivy also has fairly quick disjointed aerials to compete with Marth's if he just jumps over the razor leaf.

 

[Deleted member]

You also don't use Roy against the characters that you can't just spam dash dance dtilt against =P

what character is that

/salt parade

LOL

 

[Deleted member]

You also don't use Roy against the characters that you can't just spam dash dance dtilt against =P

Did you not see me reset the bracket vs oracles rob with roy only last night?



I'll forever never impress sethlon-san

 

[Sethlon]

Oh. Nope, sorry, was in a nyquil induced coma

 

[CORY]

Did you not see me reset the bracket vs oracles rob with roy only last night?



I'll forever never impress sethlon-san

sethlon is a stereotypical asian father.

 

[Deleted member]

Rob vs Roy feels like the pm version of ics vs peach

I just want to ****ing touch him but I can't aaaand **** I just got down thrown

 

[Chevy]

Tether cancel retether shenanigans mean that the punish isn't actually totally free, because you can mixup fairly effectively in your efforts to grab ledge.

Tether cancelling was totally removed in 3.5.

 

[Binary Clone]

Tether cancelling was totally removed in 3.5.

Oh, you're totally right. I thought you could still release from down there for some reason.

Yeah, that means it's a lot worse. That means that a lot of characters get free combos from that with pretty much no chance for the Ivy. :/ That's a bit of an over-nerf, I'd say. I think you should be able to mix it up at least a tiny bit for the special tethers, so that punishing vine whip and the like isn't completely for free.

 

[Deleted member]

The problem with giving tether cancel back is then toon link tethers to the stage

waits

drop up b's, stage spikes you at 20%

 

[Binary Clone]

The problem with giving tether cancel back is then toon link tethers to the stage

waits

drop up b's, stage spikes you at 20%

Is there a problem with giving tether cancel back to special tethers, though?

I think getting rid of it with z tethers was definitely good, but special tethers like Ivy's it just results in a completely free punish.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

The problem with giving tether cancel back is then toon link tethers to the stage

waits

drop up b's, stage spikes you at 20%

You counter that by hitting those big grey shoulder buttons that say L or R. Stage teching isn't hard, if you know of a possibility of getting stage spiked by something, you can react decently to it if you have a finger resting on the button.

 

[Bleck]

why are you off the stage near a character if you know they're just gonna stage spike you

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Sometimes you can just go out there. If you can react to it, throw out a move to trade with the move that stage spikes, then tech the stage, they die and you live. Sounds like a good trade in my book, of course it's not always the best idea, but it's always good to mix it up.

 

[Deleted member]

You counter that by hitting those big grey shoulder buttons that say L or R. Stage teching isn't hard, if you know of a possibility of getting stage spiked by something, you can react decently to it if you have a finger resting on the button.

A. If you stage tech it, toon link still gets back to the stage for free. Unless the other character edge guarding him is toonlink, in that case tink stage spikes and up b's back at him LOL

B. More often than not, you'll end up rolling back on stage. The Drop up b is pretty hard to react to.

I'm pretty sure sethlon can agree with me that we don't need to give back tether dropping/cancelling/whatever you call it.

 

[Binary Clone]

A. If you stage tech it, toon link still gets back to the stage for free. Unless the other character edge guarding him is toonlink, in that case tink stage spikes and up b's back at him LOL

B. More often than not, you'll end up rolling back on stage. The Drop up b is pretty hard to react to.

I'm pretty sure sethlon can agree with me that we don't need to give back tether dropping/cancelling/whatever you call it.

What about just for special tethers, though?

 

[Deleted member]

Even if you like... gave ivysaur/olimar up b drop

What would that do? All you have to do is just hold the ledge as they stall the inevitable. Characters like samus don't need it either :/

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Idk tether dropping is pretty crazy, but tethers now a days are pretty butts without them. At the same time, if you gave them back, they'd probably be too good. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

 

[Binary Clone]

Even if you like... gave ivysaur/olimar up b drop

What would that do? All you have to do is just hold the ledge as they stall the inevitable. Characters like samus don't need it either :/

It'd basically just give them a small mixup option. It wouldn't do much, but it still does a little bit, and gives you an opportunity to at least attempt to throw off the edgehogger's timing. I think it's kind of silly that holding the edge against Ivy/Olimar just gives you a completely free punish that can be really effective depending on your character's ledgehop options. Having even a slight mixup let's you make that at least a little less silly, in my opinion.

And Samus doesn't have a special tether? Unless you mean ZSS.